Blue,

If you are going to get into any kind of defense on what you said then do not argue and attribute to me a quote that was said by someone else. Or call the dry cleaner for a pick up.

Customstox


Quote:
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Yeah Howard it is his culture;
and his culture is a good reason he should be in SE Asia instead of St Paul Minnesota.


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Bluejob we can always count on you to come up with some liberal horseshit. Not much to talk about here from my view. Either shoot the motherfucker or ship his chink ass to Florida or Texas for a BBQ southern style ! Personally I vote for option A. I guess we should give old bluejob a break. After all he is just another mouthpiece lawyer.
"The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers ! "
W. Shakepear

Certainly this fellow is deserving of the most severe of punishments. The question is: What is this? A lethal injection (or equivalent) strikes me as overly humane. We put down dogs we've loved for years by the same process.

I think a lifetime of anal-pillaging by some horse-like cell "mate" is much more fitting. I'll gladly devote my tax dollars (as I am a resident of WI) to such a fate...

Well Hell, I guess I have to jump in this as well.

It appears that he may have served in our military just as one of the DC snipers did. That is a shame because along with anti-hunting groups and anti-gun groups, some anti-military folks will use it for their political motives just as some of the "its the color of his skin or his culture" folks will use it to hate all people with different color skin and different cultures.

There is alot of foolish talk in this thread and I hope we all get a clue before we present our opinions to those outsiders who will be impressed by what we say.

The only thing that killed these people is THIS guy. Not his culture or his color or his weapon. ONLY him. He is an adult, been living here 20yrs or so, he knows right from wrong, HE DID IT!

There were lots of folks who made mistakes. The criminal system and his wife who apparently let him get away with waving a gun in his wife's face and saying he would kill her in 2001 will have to live with their apathy.

I really hate to say it, but the people that got shot let their guard down. I know they were probably being nice, but if someone is armed and on your property you better be prepared when you approach them (why only 1 gun among the firt 3-5 hunters who approached before shots were fired, why not more guns after the shooting started???), if you are not prepared then call the sherriff. According to Cooper, the first rule of self defense is alertness: "A commander may be forgiven for being defeated, but never for being surprised." Two rules, know what is behind you, and pay particular attention to anything out of place. Trouble can appear at ANY time." Someone on your property with a SKS, someone who has already shot your companions and still no guns for defense (I will be appalled if there were guns there and nobody was using them, if there was only one gun then it is another story).

ChuckWagon and jimmyd223, you two are way over the top and you need to be men and respect others, PERIOD. I find it ironic that you would post your signoff as "Don't argue! with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference." I will heed your advice at this time.

There is going to be damage to all of us folks. I think we should first all grieve for these victims. After that we better figure out what we are going to do to protect ourselves from the madmen of the world, the gun-haters, anti-hunters, and the media. Don't worry about this murderer, one way or the other, he is now history.

Deke.

That is absolutely horrible! What has the world come too!

Dinke, as far as I'm concearned you and old blue boy can ride off in to the sunset and lobby with your liberal friends for same sex marriage.
I'd do a modified version of Chinas program but instead of just shooting him once and sending the family the bill I'd let every family member of the victoms who wanted to take a crack at chinkboy have one free shot and then bill the estate for all the rounds. Sheeet....I guess that wouldn't work we'd just be billing our own welfare system !
I don't know what it's like where this happened but here in Mi we sometimes think Tresspassers have more damn rights that the land owners. We have to maintain a multimillion dollar liability policy on deer camp so we don't get sued by some rughead like Saeeds's first cousin from Dearborn who walks by the NO TRESSPASSING signs climbs a tree thinking it's a camel and falls on his towel wrapped head ! I've always admired Texas law. They don't fu** around. If your tresspassing and your shot Tuff shit. It's presumed you meant to do bodily harm. I can't even shoot a home intruder here IN my house unless he has a gun. Then I have to worry about useing "overpowered" ammo or a bigger gun than the intruder. Somethings got to give and my best idea is to send blue and his bend over liberal buddies to Afganistan......But I'm still open to ideas !

No, the hmong certainly didn't fight for the United States. They fought for themselves, and because the United States paid them. From stories I've heard, the US at one point in the war used to pay them for every set of Vietnamese ears they brought in. This practice was stopped when people began to notice hmong villages with earless children running around (selling their own childrens ears).

I think someone mentioned the Lutheran church as having had a hand in bringing them in. Is this the same Lutheran church that has helped bring so many of the "Lost Boy's" from the Sudan to Maine in recent years? I'm so glad that they have their priorities straight.

It's unfortunate that after lurking for months on this board, this is the post that had to bring me out. The unecessary loss of life in this incident is an absolute discrace though.

Humm... My nationality is Viet, and I'm thinking of saving up for my first deer hunt next fall.

How do you think people are going to treat geeky little me?

ChuckWagon,

You are wreckless. Sounds like you use a name calling tack like the very liberals we both abhore. You might want to try a different tack. There might be somthing worth hearing in all the bla, bla, bla, you rant about.

Deke.

Ok well I have to admidt your right. Of course I'm just venting because this is so bad for all of us. It's sad for the familys, it's unfortunate that we are falling victim to our system on many levels and its bloody frustrating !

Having said that I really think less than 100 years ago he would have been swinging from a rope and that's not a bad thing IMO. Justice should be swift for the perp and the victims. We will now have to endure months, if not years of drivel like Blue Boy's views costing those of us who actually pay taxes a bundle. I for one resent the he** out of it !

Gooks and sks rifles in the woods dont make a good match.I have seen gooks hunting in Ga shooting straight down roads at hogs towards cars!I use to work in a big gun store I refused to sell a gun to them if they could not speak clear English!I dont think its right what happened he should be hung in the town square.There are too many nonenglish speaking gooks and other forgeiners in the woods that dont unstand and rules or regulations.

Howard

Yes, I truly feel that way.

Trespassing on private property is against the law. I can also understand why it may seem like a foreign thing to you, but Wisconsin laws put the burden mainly on the hunter rather than the land owner to know what is private property and what is not. Much of the reason for this is because most people will try to say they didn't realize that they were trespassing. That argument doesn't hold water if it is your responsibility to know for sure whether you are or you are not. Further, this usually isn't about merely crossing a corner of some private property on your way to somewhere else, it is hunting on other people's property.

Try to imagine over 600,000 people looking for a place to hunt in a season that lasts NINE days. I know it may seem hard for you to comprehend it but I have been there. Now, you have purchased a 400 acre parcel of land for you, your children, and your friends to hunt on. Are you going to report people who you find hunting there that walked right past your signs? It's probably far safer to do that than telling them in person, but most people will usually try to just tell you to leave. I am assuming that's what happened in this case. I can't see how you can not think that someones tree stand is not private property though to begin with. This is not merely walking through someone's private property.

Anyway, to me it is no difference if you are charged with trepassing or for any other crime a few days after it happened. You either did it or you didn't. If you can't prove you are innocent, then I guess you pay whether it is for trespassing or any other crime..

LMAO, I know its really not funny but I guess you have to see the humor to maintain some degree of sanity. On the other hand the Pilgrims initially had their heads scalped and were run out. Certainly very little quarter was "given" to them. In the end they paid the ultimate price.

I quit hunting hogs on public land long ago in Ga because of the gooks.I knew something like this would happen.All the gook has to say is I didnt understand english good and they will let him free.If I ever see a gook in the woods I take my safety off,just in case.The Russians in Alaska are just as bad or worse.They poach like crazy and F&G will do nothing to them.I have a 80 year old friend who caught a russian shooting a cow and calf moose in his driveway.The russian told him to take some meat and not tell or he would kill him.The russian was fined $250 and that was later suspended.I have turned in russians for shooting grizzley bears out of season the F&G would not even come out.They are afraid of them.I think hunter safety should be for everyone.If you cant speak english well you cant hunt.Thats the russians excuse in Ak every time they get caught and they get away with anything.

Berrier:

If you think you have a lot of Sudanese in Maine, try a visit to Minneapolis and get a load of all the Somolians!

As I state, they would not endure 40 below unless the place was a welfare disneyland.

Welcome to the Board, and wish you had piped in under a better subject matter.

Cheers
seafire

Trespassing is one thing, Killing 6 people is another!

seafire

ChuckWagon,

I must say that I agree with every thing in this last post and I like everybody else here share your frustration.

Personally, I wish we still had real chain gangs. For many, the death penalty is not enough punishment and unfortunately the death penalty is very expensive and lengthy (numerous appeals meaning all kinds of attorney/judge/family/state government expenses, etc. etc.).

This whole thing is very unfortunate and the enemy WILL use this the best they can. All of us need to work on solutions.

For instance, why not have more seasons stretching them out over a longer period of time. It would be very frustrating for me to have to hunt in such crowded conditions. I would not shoot anybody or excuse anybody who became violent, but it might help limit hot tempers and make it more enjoyable for all.

The fact that this guy assaulted his wife with a firearm, but still got a hunting license and had a firearm is a complete failure of the legal system. This has to change.

Last, but not least, and I don't like going here again, is that ultimately these folks, no matter how kind hearted they may have been are ultimately responsible for their own safety (alot of people just don't get this). It is in no way their fault they got shot, but I wish they would have been more prepared and had shot this guy down before he got the better of them (if he was killed in the act, alot of future expense and pain would have been avoided). Maybe we should have some common sense "self defense" taught as part of hunter safety? Most is awareness and being prepared, and not being a sitting duck?

Last, but not least, I just read that the shooter is saying the other folks shot 1st and he was being racailly assaulted. I would not be surprised if Johnny Cochran is called in for this one.

Deke.

"Blue is a decent guy. I think a lot of people are not really understanding his prospective."

"People also need to understand where these people came from."

Sorry to say this old man, but it's beginning to sound as if you're hinting at the possibility that you might be considering the option of perhaps becoming an apologist for Blue -- who in turn is starting to sound alot like an apologist for the Lao murderer.

I have talked to Blue off forum and I find him a decent caring respectful individual. I'd be proud to hunt with him any day of the week.

As far as an apologist for this Vang guy, read a couple of my posts. My fur is up as much as anyone's. I have hunted this area and am just imagining in my mind, some one being asked to leave and then being shot for it asking or even telling him. Shooting one person would have been a travesty in itself.
But 7 more.

And as someone posted that the Minneapolis Star and Tribune reported that Vang Could have been shot at also.

This is pure DFL bullshit, because anyone with a brain knows if some farmer in Northern Wisconsin had aimed to shoot this clown, my faith is that the Hmong guy would be dead, not 6 good people from Wisconsin, with 2 more in the hospital.

Blue gets accused of a reputation, instead of people reading his posts as he wrote them. I understand what he meant, and I think it is pretty straight forward, especially after he has clarified it several times.

I respect his composure under fire.

Cheers
seafire

but, if the farmer sent a "shot over his bow", there would be no dead tresspasser. That would be a major tactical error.

It seems to me that it that occured, there is a spent cartridge (from an respectable hunting rifle ) and a hole in the ground a few yards from where one of the first victims fell, and should be sorted out soon by those tasked to sort it out.

I have a feeling that the whole story is yet to be told, all else is just opinion. This isn't about the Hmong in the VN conflict, or much of anything except this man and what he did, and why he did it. Self-defense would be a hard sell, JMHO. Anger over something, uncontrolled, possible. Justified, my gut reaction is no, but I want to hear the whole story anyway.

As far as the death penalty, it is not the death penalty itself that is the problem, but how it is used or has been used that is the problem. Again, JMHO.

Blue,
I don't disslike you as a person because I don't know you. I just know your on line persona. More precisely I don't like that you often seem to bounce between the lines. I don't care if you dissagree with me. Heck most people do ! I just think you should as a man be able to see a line of right and wrong that is unwavering. There is no gray. Gray is for indecisive people. I am pro-choice you are not. I'd be glad to pull the lever on this punk and you are against the death penalty. If you want to make a real difference then lobby against plea bargans. Theres a scam that sends countless people to prison that may be innocent or worse yet guilty of a different crime. Also as physicians we are obligated to hate lawyers on basic principles ! If you were at my camp I'd still bust your chops about being a blood sucker but your right the conversation would never be this blunt and possibly would never even take place.
In regard to self defense I heard tonight that another person has died and that a few of the victims were shot in the back.

He is now playing the sef defense card and the race card. Most of the witness are dead. He can well say anthing to to his butt off. No douht that some liberal lawyer well take up the poor mans case.

Howard

I went back through all my posts on this subject and I can't find where I said you would be automatically guilty if you could not prove your whereabouts. I did say you might get a citation or you might be charged. It is up to a judge or jury to find you guilty. I do not think this makes you guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. You are being charged and the verdict will be either guilty OR innocent. If you get a parking ticket or a speeding ticket it will be the same process if you choose to take it to court. Don't you agree? You must convince either judge or jury why you believe you are innocent. By the same token there must be sufficient proof that you were guilty also, but yes, a landowner who can provide a backtag number can sometimes be enough.

Please think about this. There are over 600,000 back tag numbers in Wisconsin, and all hunters must wear one. What are the chances someone from the Northern area of the state is going to turn in your number if you aren't in the area? I admit it is possible that it could happen but not too likely. Besides with that many people it is almost certain you will either run into someone or be with someone who can vouch for you if you are innocent of the charge. I myself can still tell you every day where I was in the past nine days while hunting and also who I met up with.

From my experience people generally don't just throw out numbers because it doesn't help their cause by having the wrong people cited, especially if the person cited can come up with proof that they were not on the property in question. A person's credibility disappears if they constantly come up with wrong numbers and they find it harder to make law officers believe them. When I first mentioned this in this thread I said few people even protested the citations. Most just paid the $50.00 fine and chalked it up to being unlucky in getting caught, just like if you get caught for speeding. So, I would assume most if not all were probably guilty. However for my money they convicted themselves by not fighting it if they were not on the property in question.

I realize this phenomenon may be hard for people to understand who haven't experienced it, but it is not like hunting in areas that have orange posts every once in awhile to mark private property. I don't think you can even compare it to BLM land and grazing rights. But if you do, a simple trip to the local BLM office lets you know where you shouldn't be in any given area. I also think a cattle owner would get laughed out of most courts if he claimed you were simply on the wrong side of a fence, as I have seen few fences on BLM land that held cattle unless the owner of the property next to it put them in. Maybe it is different in some areas, but that has been my experience.

In short your statement "Larry nobody has more respect for private property rights then me" says it all. You and other people with the same attitude will never have to worry about what we are talking about.

While I share the shock and rage expressed in this forum, and find myself agreeing with many of the points expressed, I also have to take issue with posts making sweeping references to "gooks", etc. This is not a race issue, so don't make it one. Those kind of remarks reinforce the "self defense" plea that is sure to be attempted. They also demean a large portion of our population that has worked very hard to share and support our mutual American Dream.

I also wish that we could refrain from personal attacks on each other. This is America, and each of us is entitled to have an opinion and, if we choose to, share it.

I don't agree with everything Blue posts. I support the death penalty, since it is the only certain way to insure that those who commit truly heinous acts will not have the opportunity to repeat them. Ted Bundy is the case in point that shows the danger of keeping the dangerous around. But I am also Pro-life, as I only believe in ending the life of the guilty to protect the innocent.

We don't have all the facts about this current tragedy. But what has been released seems pretty damning as to the alleged perpetrator (since we don't know for sure what happened). If it is true that only one of the victims had a weapon, then this individual gunned down 6 unarmed men and 1 woman. I do not believe that racial insults or even being shot towards can justify that, nor would the self defense be applicable once the immediate alleged threat was neutralized, lethal force is no longer justified. It does sound like he panicked and attempted to eliminate all potential witnesses. I sure would like to know how he was asked to leave the tree stand. I hope it was a polite request, as he may have been lost and wasn't sure where he was. I would also like to know how he could have supposedly threatened his wife with a firearm previously and had two additional domestic disturbance calls to his home in the past year and still be out trespassing with a loaded SKS. (Hunting? Reports I read said he didn't even have a compass with him)

One last explanation for my personal belief in the death penalty: Charles Rodman Campbell. Some of you from the state of washington might remember this fine human being. During a burglary, he seized the opportunity to rape a young woman, forcing himself on her while he held a knife to her baby's throat. She had the courage to testify against him, and he was convicted and sent to prison. After serving 6 years of his 30 year sentence, he was let out on work release, and proceeded to rape, sodomize and murder Renae Wickland, her 8 year old daughter, Shannah, and her 51 year old neighbor Barbara Hendrickson. Details

I followed the case pretty closely, and drove to the State Penitentiary in Walla Walla, so I could actually be in the vicinity when they hung that sorry excuse for a human being. And Blue, not even DNA could have gotten him off. And I can say with certainty he won't ever hurt anyone again. Too bad the states of Wisconsin and Minnesota have chosen not to offer their citizens the same protection.

Blue, just to be clear as I can see I was a little "wordy" in a prior post. I am not a physician. My wife is a physician and we own a clinic with several others. In either event I do still think to some extent it is a racial or perhaps a cultural issue. In this case it certainly appears on the surface that the DNR of this state and its law abiding sportsman have had more than there fair share of trouble from theese Hmong-Americans who are working so hard for the American dream. Especialy those with who hunt with assault weapons. Raceism is certainly a ugly beast but at some point self-preservation does take precident. I Point to Fjolds example of the Pilgrims. If were not carefull in the future we will be going down the same path of those TRUE native Americans who were present when the pilgrims arrived. In spite of any poking ole Blue for a few laughs or Racial innuendo's I still say we FRY THE BASTARD !

"What do you do. Myself, I am shooting back!! I don't know if that happpened on this occasion. the accused says it did and he could be telling a lie."

Bluejob, why in hell didn't you say at the beginning of this long discussion that you're a lawyer? That changes everything! Your predisposition to compromise, appeasement, and avoidance of consequence isn't really your fault. It was the three years at the ambulance chasers' academy, beginning with Weaselcraft 101, and the internship at Fleesum & Splitt LLC that did it. Okay, so now we can all disregard your argument. What a relief. Here's a little known fact: attorneys are living proof that it is, in fact, possible to become pregnant via anal sex.

By the way have you called the Vang family yet to see if they're interested in a tort against the state, the landowner, the estates of the six dead hunters, the tree stand manufacturer, and maybe even old Kalashnikov himself?

Blue,
Happy Turkey Day to you as well. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone here. We all have a lot to be thankfull for. Freedom of expression is one. Lets all just remember were not doin anything besides talkin turkey here. Have a good one !

Blue,
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family as well. I may not always agree with you on every issue (although I do on the death penalty)but I appreciate your ability to maintain civility in your posts.

Jeff

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/nov04/statement112304edits01.pdf

The police report.

I am not a lawyer but I believe he cooked his own goose
by admitting he chased and gunned down an unarmed man.

He is a rotten bastard.

blue. this part was great!!!! I have to tell you honestly that being a member of this forum has taught me more about conflict and mediation than those classes ever did. There are some extremely good teachers on this forum who will run your patience into the ground if your not careful.
So how bout a cut of that 1300.00 if we did such a good job

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL

Blue, my opinion on the death penalty is that it is a truly viable option. Yes it is true that some innocent people are put to death but the number that are wrongfully convicted is smaller than the number of innocent people killed by people who get out and re-offend. It is also my opinion that the vast majority of "wrongfully" convicted are not necessairly totally innocent, are involved in some way and the vast majority of them have lengthy records for other crimes and I believe the innocent publics safety superceeds the rights of a convicted murderer wether he be guilty or not. Life isn't just or fair for everyone and the odds are that the death penalty saves more innocent lives than it kills.

After reading all 14 pages on this issue I have made some decisions of my own:
1. Race has nothing to do with these murders.
2. If he was in fact shot at and returned fire;that accounts for one victim.What about the rest of the people he gunned down in cold blood.
3. In his statement he has admitted to chasing down and murdering unarmed people. Therefore I don't think DNA will clear him of these murders.
4. Papershredder's verdict; GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS!
5. Sentence; RIDE THE LIGHTNING!!
My prayers go out to the family and friends of the hunters murdered in this tragic encounter.