The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Freehand accuraceyGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Freehand accuracey | Login/Join |
| one of us |
We judge rifle accuracey with sub moa precision. How well can you perform, standing, freehand? What is a good 5 shot group under these circumstances? | ||
|
| <Mike M> |
Judging from my experience shooting metallic silhouettes, I would say 5 MOA would be quite good, 3 MOA would be exceptional and anything under 3 is pretty much superhuman. | ||
|
| <Ol' Sarge> |
Well now, I ain't never shot organized silhouete, but I'll betcha a case of good beer I can hit an 8" paper plate 10 outta 10 times at 100 yards with my old -06.  However, when hunting I'll find a rest of some kind everytime. ------------------ | ||
|
| one of us |
I'm primarily a hunter, and don't do any 'formal' target shooting. Almost all of my shots at game have been close and offhand. There doesn't seem to be the interest in long range shooting here that there is in other places. I do practice offhand, with groups going 2-4" at 50 yards. Thats with open sights. Strangely, the groups are usually smaller than the area covered by the front bead. With my scoped rifles, I would consider 4-5" at 100 yards pretty good. I'm going to work on moving targets this summer. If you shoot enough offhand, all the other shots seem simple. I don't have much use for shooting from a bench except for sighting in my rifles or testing new loads... I would expect that a practiced target shooter would be able to shoot much more accurately than that. | |||
|
| <rplocat> |
i practice freehand shooting every chance i get,because there is not always something to rest off of.or you can't kneel or sit because you can't see the game from that position.can hold an 11\2" group at 50 yrds and 3" at 100. | ||
|
Moderator |
I always fancied myself a pretty good shot. I never had much use for offhand shooting because I always seem to be able to get a rest hunting the species I do around here. I was given some advice to practice my offhand shooting for an upcoming trip to RSA and so I have done so in earnest. Over the last three months I have managed to shoot about 1500 rounds this way, and all I can say is that I have a lot of respect for anyone that can shoot an offhand 5 inch group at 100yds with hunting calibers. I can now do it with one of my rifles, but for the most part I have to be happy with 8" pie plate accuracy. As much as I try to avoid shooting offhand, you can be assured I will practice it more from now on. Humbly, | |||
|
| one of us |
I practice offhand shooting regularly and am a fairly constistent pie-plate moa shooter. I have recently begun to double up as quickly as possible in case I have to make one of those horrible second shots. It really has helped me appreciate using a sling again and the good 'ole tree support when really hunting. | |||
|
| new member |
I was always a rifle shooter. One day, I got into the combat pistol game, I wanted to set a goal which was to put two double-taps, into a playing card at 7 yd.s. That took me two years. That was freehand, off hand, etc. I don't shoot off hand with a rifle anymore, because I don't practice it. I can still put 2 double-taps in a pie plate though, at 7 yd.s. And, I've done M.O.A. out to 2500 Yd.s with the right equip. Sorry: Good Shootin' [This message has been edited by djd (edited 05-15-2002).] | |||
|
| Administrator |
trans-pond, Welcome to the forum. We shoot off hand here sometimes, using a target with a bullseye of around 5 inches in diameter. Generally, most people put all their shots in the black, although we do have some going out sometimes. In my own experience, field shooting has to be quick as well as accurate. ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
|
| one of us |
Saeed is right about field shooting needing to be quick as well as accurate. I was at the range yesterday, and I was managing about 1" group at 25 yards, about 2" at 50. I practice with pistol constantly with time constaints, 2 shots COM in 1.5 second at 10 yds. was a goal awhile back, and I can do it consistently now from the holster. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
200 yards offhand I can usually keep about 16-17 of 20 shots in a 7" target (10 ring) with peep sights. I typically score 196/200. I shoot in Master class. The other two usually go into the 9 ring. | |||
|
| <Don Martin29> |
A target shooter with the right equipment can keep all of his or her shots in one MOA most of the time. But this is using a free rifle (8 KG), leather coat and years of practice with a 40X quality rifle and ammunition. But this is not that relevant to hunting. If the game is close then holding the rifle out near the forend to control it as the animal moves is best. Few can "group" well at all with this hold but it is best for a quick shot. If the game is further away then either find a rest, use the sitting position or let the animal go. | ||
|
| one of us |
DonMartin29: A couple of years ago I was elk hunting with my .35 Whelen which is a pump action. I have shot a lot offhand using the classic silhouette stance, and I used this stance to shoot an elk at about 200 yards. That is not a good stance to shoot a pump. The forearm came back and hit me in the left index finger, thought it was broken. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Don, I'm not sure where you shoot rifle matches. But I shoot against 4 High Masters and only one I know will clean the offhand at 200 yards with any frequency (maybe 3 or 4 times a year out of 20 matches) Most shoot in the 197-198 range. The 10 ring on the 200 yard target is 7". That's better than 3 MOA! And not many people I know can hold their target rifle to 3 MOA. There are lots of shots thrown into the 9 and 8 ring by Master class shots. I'm not trying to argue with you but I guarantee you David Tubb Can't hold his rifle to one MOA offhand...he shoots too many 197's and 8's with an X count under 10 to prove that! When you look at the X count in any given rifle match the ability to hold a rifle to MOA becomes dismally apparant. I can barely hold the gun to 1 MOA prone unsupported...Otherwise I'd post lots of 200/200 scores with an X count in the high teens! Of course you might be shooting with some exceptional shots... | |||
|
| <Don Martin29> |
I never shot against Mr. Tubbs. But I was the first person to shoot a perfect score on the international target. The ten ring is about one MOA. This was twenty five shots at two hundred yards and ten of the shots were standing (offhand). I can keep the shots into the ten ring at 100 yards with my 40X .22LR at 100 yards off hand. I have entered matches in New England where casual shooting is done. One round will be at a running deer target and then they will shoot five or the shots at 100 yards on the smallbore target. These guys use centerfire rifles and don't even know how to hold them. It does not matter to me if a scope or iron sights are required. For a long match I prefer the iron sights as the rifle balances better. But I use a fitted leather coat and practice a lot. Now many matches are fired with gas guns and they can't compete with a free rifle nor should they. | ||
|
one of us |
OK, now I've gotta step in and defend the honor of gas-gunners .... I'm one of the remaining dinosaurs that shoots the M14. How many still shooting can say they went Distinguished with a wood-stocked rifle? My offhand still includes the occasional foray into the 8-ring, despite decades of practice and lots of cardboard cards with flattering words printed on them. I'd concur that most shots taken offhand at game would be better served by a more "shotgun like" stance than our formal target posture, given the immediacy of the shot. If you have more time, get a better rest! Just my opinion. Others prove me wrong all the time, so if something diffferent works for you, use it! Redial | |||
|
| <Paul Machmeier> |
Some of you guys are really great off-hand rifle shots. I would have to agree with Mike M, "Anything under 3 MOA is superhuman". (At least consistently). Before I leave for a hunting trip, I try to practice as much as possible off-hand to gain confidence with the rifles going along. For me 6-8 MOA at 100 yds with a scoped rifle is pretty rough, prefer 3-4 MOA range if I can get it. Usually, takes a lot of practice. Well, I can only actually shoot every couple of weeks at the range so must rely on other methods. Handle and sight the rifle after working the bolt from the shoulder everyday. Another thing that really helps me is trap shooting for breathing, eye-hand-brain coordination, it sure helps me especially after a long winter. Last two weeks drop the shot gun to your waist when you call for the bird, makes a difference. Another area that IMHO is important is shooting a rifle I love. If I don't feel comfortable with it, I sell it. That way, once the rifle is sighted in for the ammo, the score is in the hands of the shooter. Look for good stock design, proper weight--especially important for the kickers and big bore group, good balance--want some weight up front--must swing and point, good crisp trigger, etc. and practice, practice, practice, etc. Of course we can always stalk closer! | ||
|
| <Mike M> |
quote: Well Sarge, I ain't never shot organized paper plates but it seems our offand skills are about equal -- I'm a 7 or 8 MOA shooter myself! | ||
|
| <ChuckD> |
I have been shooting in muzzleloader "rendezvous" for quite a few years, where all shooting is done offhand with open sights. Out of perhaps 1000 shooters I have yet to see any exceed 3" at best even by accident. These are shooters who "do the circuit" all summer---I would say that the best shoot at about 5 moa, the average at about 10", and the greenhorns need a way bigger target than we have. | ||
|
| one of us |
22yrs ago I bought my first rifle ,a 30.06 M700.I had never shot anything before except a Daisy BB,ten boxs later,I shot 5" with iron sights at 100yards.One guy at work swapped some of my brass for a box of reloads,my groups dropped to 2 1/2".A couple years ago I picked up another 30.06 for back-up,it only had iron sights,I coundn't hit pie plate.With a 'scope,kneeling,I can hit a pie-plate at 200yrs,same rifle.20yrs later with a 'scope I shoot half as well!! | |||
|
| <Don G> |
I usually keep five out of five in a pie plate at 100 yards, offhand with a hunting rifle. That's why I almost never shoot offhand at game past about 80 yards. Don | ||
|
| One of Us |
quote: Don, one of the points they beat into me in the army was this: "ALWAYS take the best shooting position you have time to get into." I don't know why it stuck with me, but it did and it's damn good advice. How long would it take most of us to drop to a kneeling or sitting position? Answer, not very long! My thought is there is usually no real reason FOR the "off-hand" shot unless hunting in heavy cover. From listening to hunters shooting, you get the idea that people always have time for 3 or 4 follow up shots but never enough time to shift into a better shooting position and do things right the first time. You can just about guarantee when you are out hunting deer or elk that when you hear a single "Ka-Whump" followed by silence that someone is taking their trophy home with them. ------------------ | |||
|
| <Ol' Sarge> |
Mike M, I get to bettin' beer, etc anytime somebody shows me their benchrest targets. I ask 'em how their off-hand shooting is, and of course they don't know but won't admit it. So, I invite them out to my range and let them go first, shooting at a pie plate at 100 yards. I usually start out by betting them they can't hit it 5 out of 10 times. I ain't lost yet (The average is probably three). Then I bet them I can hit it 10 outa 10 double or nothin'. 'Course they always believe if they can't do it nobody can. Easiest beer I've ever won. It DOES take practice. BTW, I ain't the best shot I know of, however, I do know what I can do and I ain't afraid of gettin' shown up. Anybody wanna shoot trap with a .22 for beer? ------------------ | ||
|
| one of us |
I wonder how many of these sub 3" offhand groups at 100 yds are flukes. Can they do it every time!!! I suppose if one loads his own ammo with enough IMR-BS then one could shoot 3" groups off hand everytime. ------------------ | |||
|
| <Youper> |
I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't practice enough sitting or kneeling. My offhand shooting is actually better than my sitting or kneeling. I know those positions are theoretically more stable than offhand, but right now today I would be worse off taking the time to get into one of those "more steady" positions. | ||
|
| one of us |
Ray, I have no problem putting 5 or even 10 shots into 3 inches at 100 yards with my Sharps 45-70 or 45-120. Both rifles are equipped with set triggers and once set and breathing correctly it is not too difficult. Simply takes practice. Shooting prone or sitting I can hit a 18 inch target 85% or better at 600 yards with the same two rifles. Sorry if I am better than you but I use IMR4831 in the 45-120 not IMR-BS. Casey | |||
|
one of us |
quote: What is the burn rate of IMR BS? Is it a slow burner? Is it something like IMR 4350? Is it okay to substitute Hodgdon BS -- or AA BS -- for IMR BS? How much compression can you use with BS? What is a good starting load for BS? Are kernels of IMR BS longer than Hodgdon BS? Is Hodgdon going to offer something like a "Hodgdon BS SC (Short-Cut)" version for easier metering? Lastly, where is BS sold??? I keep hearing the guys at my usual gun store talking about "BS" but I never see it for sale anywhere. Maybe I could order some BS. Everytime these new products come out, they take years to hit the shelves. Damn. Russ ------------------ [This message has been edited by Russell E. Taylor (edited 05-20-2002).] | |||
|
| one of us |
I entered my first 300M silhouette pig shoot a couple of months ago thanks to the encouragement from another Nebraskan who posts on this forum. This is offhand, no sling, no jacket. Pig is around 24" wide and 16" tall. I used a TC/Encore in .308 with a 4-12X scope set at 10X. I went 20/40, which, for my first time I was told was a very good outing. I am hooked! I found it very challenging, sometimes maddening and GREAT practice--I can't wait for the series to start again next fall... Roger | |||
|
| one of us |
Ray,that 2 1/2 " was done two days running.Understand that was 22yrs ago and I have never smoked.Now that I reload,I have found that rifle shoots almost anything under 2 MOA,four different loads under 1 MOA.I suspect those Lee hand loads shot real tight! | |||
|
| one of us |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russell E. Taylor: [B] What is the burn rate of IMR BS? Is it a slow burner? Is it something like IMR 4350? Is it okay to substitute Hodgdon BS -- or AA BS -- for IMR BS? How much compression can you use with BS? What is a good starting load for BS? Are kernels of IMR BS longer than Hodgdon BS? Is Hodgdon going to offer something like a "Hodgdon BS SC (Short-Cut)" version for easier metering? Lastly, where is BS sold??? I keep hearing the guys at my usual gun store talking about "BS" but I never see it for sale anywhere. Maybe I could order some BS. Everytime these new products come out, they take years to hit the shelves. Damn. Russ, I'm pretty sure IMR BS is available for free in most locations. It is generally long-cut but may also be offered in a short-cut version. I have been told that it has a terrible odor when ignited though. | |||
|
| one of us |
Casey, If you ever get down this way or I get up your way I would like to take you on at $100 per shot in a gentlemans offhand match...I will be in Nebraska in Sept. how close is that to you? I'll shoot iron sights too, and just use a 30-06 or whatever....that way we will know who is the better shot, and that should be fun... ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Ray,I think you are mixing Casey and I up.30.06 !Casey uses 45-70.I don't think a 3" groups for clean living young men is all that tough.When I ran out of the box the hand loads after two days the groups went back to 5".At the time I didn't consider it anything special,except hand loads were better than Winchester 180gr Silver-tips,that's why the numbers stuck .I was on my own,no one to compare to,and a miss is a miss.But that was then,too much time and coffee.I don't bet unless I know I can win,but is the invite still on ? | |||
|
| <Don Martin29> |
Atkinson, If you get to Connecticut your welcome here to do some shooting. Don | ||
|
| one of us |
Ray, It depends upon what part of Nebraska you're in. Which range do you want to shoot at 100 or 600? Braggin' rights would be much better at 600! Casey | |||
|
| one of us |
Went out today to try some work up loads in my 30-06. Just for kicks I tried some free hand shooting. Useing some of my hunting loads which shoot .5 MOA consistantly I let loose 5 shots at 100yds. Even with 1 shot hitting 1" from the bullseye, I must say is I was not a threat to anything 5" or smaller. I remember as a kid, my brother and I would shoot .22's free hand and we were deadly. We could drive tacks with them till the cows came home but we shot almost everyday. | |||
|
| one of us |
Casey, I'll be in Sargent Nebraska, how far is that? ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Casey, Please shoot me an e-mail at mayes@tidepool.com.I need some of your IMR-4831 data for my 45/120. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Frankly I just have problems finding a range that will allow me to shoot from any other position than seated at the bench. When I lived in West Texas we had ample opportunity to shoot from any position desired, out to 500 yards. Around Dallas I find only one range where you have targets as far as 200 yards. No one so far has wanted to see me kneeling, sitting or standing, but come to think of it I haven't asked at the "200 yard" range. There was a great article in Bugle magazine about documenting your skills from various positions. It envolved shooting two 5" groups, throwing out the worst of the ten shots, and doing a simple calculation. If anyone is interested I'll look it back up. | |||
|
| one of us |
I'll say it again. I've shot against some highly competitive HP riflemen. People who end up on the short list at Camp Perry every year. Not one of them is a consistent MOA offhand shot. All you have to do to verify this is pull up the scores of the best shots in the country for the offhand events off of the NRA website and you will see what I'm saying. If you are better than that...well I guess you simply are better than the best Olympic level marksmen in the world and you choose to keep your astounding skills under wraps because you are shy. In HP rifle the match is won or lost in the 200 yard offhand. Most good shots can clean the 200 and 300 yard rapid events and shoot in the high 198's with a decent X count at 600 yards (providing the wind isn't too bad). But the 200 yard offhand is usually the event that separates the men from the boys. And most High Masters shoot in the 197-198/200 range with an X count in the 10-13 range. At 200 yards the 10 ring is 7 inches and the X-ring half that (Still bigger than MOA). Again, people who post these scores are at the top of their game using leather coats, match rifles etc. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
| View $GS_USERNAME's Public Profile |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Buddies |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Ignore List |
| Invite $GS_USERNAME to a Private Topic |
| View Recent Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
| Notify me of New Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
I then offer them some basic instruction on field shooting techniques. They listen better after they've been humbled.