Hey guys,

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. I was reading an old shooting mag this morning and on the reloading page it gave a Grizzly load for the .38 special.

What you have to do is load up the 158gn lead bullet but the secret is to lubricate the revolver with bacon fat. That way after you have fired all six shots at the Grizzly all with no visible result you then throw the gun at the bastard and the bacon fat will distract him long enough so you can run away.

You guys can all thank me for this. I may have just saved your lives...

Russ.

I saw this post on another Fourm thought I would share it with you
Dr B

There is another benefit of the bacon fat. It won't hurt as bad when the pissed off bear shoves the pistol up your ass it'll slide in nice and easy. If you are going to use a 38 on grizzly you can only shot them five times, you save the sixth round to put in your own brain. Less painful that way.

mike7mm08
What a astute observation for the use of bacon Fat, especially considering our reconition of Gay Pride Day.
DrB

The Alaskan guide Phil Shoemaker, writing in the 6/03 Handloader, recommended the .357 with hard cast bullets for bear defense. He notes that with a handgun, only a brain or spine shot will stop the bear, and the .357 will allow quicker follow up shots. I imagine that a hot loaded .38 Spl might be close enough.

John Taylor recommended the .38 Spl with FMJ bullets as a back up when hunting dangerous game. Put the muzzle to the skull of the critter gnawing on you and squeeze.

Hey, Dr B - April Fools Day was yesterday, not today. What a joke.
Bear in Fairbanks

Always bring a 22 rimfire. After all you only have to outrun the guys you are with.

Yeah, use the 22 lr to shoot your buddies in the kneecap so you can outrun them............

Actually, I have heard that opinion expressed about all handguns and Grizzly hunting. Another hunter I know swears that all handgun Grizzly hunting is akin to jumping off a cliff. I've never hunted them myself but I would think that a well placed .44 mag or one of the newer calibers like the .454 or the .500 would definately do the trick.
I personally belive it's all bullet placement anyway.

I actually still have some of the old factory loaded armor piercing 38 Special loads (now they are cop killer loads and BAADD) anyway i have tried them on dead Grizzlies and they will shoot clear through a big bear's head. There are about forty-six other calibers I'd recommend before the 38 special but loaded correctly and used by a determained person it would beat screamning.

458Win
My Ruger .22LR pistol Beats fist and a sharp stick or screaming.

I read the book Bear Attacksby some alaska if fact he wrote a sequal, but I don't rember his name. In this book the autor reports a couple of Native American Kids killed a BB with a single shot 22LR rifle, and another guy killed one with a Axe and lived to tell about it.

Have you considered booking axe hnts or a hunt with one of Lynns spears.

Dr B

Actually Lynn has approached me about a spear hunt. I have no doubt he could kill one but it might get a bit facinating.

458win
I'll come and film Lynns hunt if you bring your 505 Gibs.
Dr B

Accutally a 475 revolver is quite impressive on a 7 foot Artic Grizzley been there done that

Shoot him/her with five saving the last one for yourself.

Got a couple of photos of largest grizzly on record.Shot in Alaska,1600 lbs.,14'tall.Guy emptyed 2 mags. from 7MM mag. He could'nt keep the bear as he did'nt have a bear tag,but during autopsy found remains of 2 people as well as 4 38 spl. bullets.Supposably being mounted to reside in the Anchorage airport.The pictures that were sent to me have been forwarded quite a few times + could'nt find the original site for downloading but it's titled "Unbelievable".I still have it in my file if anyones interested + can't find it.

quote:

Originally posted by Norman Conquest:
Got a couple of photos of largest grizzly on record.Shot in Alaska,1600 lbs.,14'tall.Guy emptyed 2 mags. from 7MM mag. He could'nt keep the bear as he did'nt have a bear tag,but during autopsy found remains of 2 people as well as 4 38 spl. bullets.Supposably being mounted to reside in the Anchorage airport.The pictures that were sent to me have been forwarded quite a few times + could'nt find the original site for downloading but it's titled "Unbelievable".I still have it in my file if anyones interested + can't find it.

That one's been posted quite a few times, it's an urban legend.

I saw a newspaper clip from Anchorage about a bunch of guys who were fishing and then charged by a grizz. One guy had a 12guage but the bear came out of the brush quick and behind him so he had to jump out of the way. One of the other guys had a 9mm semi-auto pistol and lit him up, unbelievably the bear died, i believe he shot it 3 or 4 times but with a semi thats doable. I would rather have a 22cal pistol than nothing, i could use it on myself

fgulla,

For some reason the 9mm penetrates remarkably well, maybe something to do with the sectional density of the bullet. In gunfights the 9mm goes thru and thru on a human most of the time, not many other pistol rounds do that reliably.

I would rather have a 38 than pepper spray.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
I would rather have a 38 than pepper spray.

Why, so you can shoot yourself when you get charged?

Madgoat not all bears that attack people are huge. Many are in the 100 to 300lb range. A will placed 38 bullet is very capable of doing them in.

You must not realize just how double tough a 250 pound grizzly is. You also must not realize that they move like greasy lightning, and will be on you before you can fill your shorts. You're .38 is only effective if you're pushing it up against fur...too bad you'll be preoccupied.

MG

quote:

Originally posted by 458RugerNo1:
For some reason the 9mm penetrates remarkably well, maybe something to do with the sectional density of the bullet.

Federal used to make "training loads" that had 115 grain solid copper truncated cone projectiles (as well as non-toxic primers) that I think would zip right through most any North American game animal. As far as really stopping them in time though...that is likely another story.

JMHO,

John

OK Madgoat a guess grizzys are super animals and will not die with a bullet in the brain. Or with there lungs filled with holes.

I am sorry for thinking that they are filled with blood.

I guess a rock or a stick would be much better to have in my hands.

Oh. forgive me.

Madgoat I guess if it is so hopeless to defend oneself against Grizzly attack because they are so fast and tough one could never get a shot off any way one should never hunt them or never go armed.

Shit if they are that super of a animal how come we almost wiped them out.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Actually Lynn has approached me about a spear hunt. I have no doubt he could kill one but it might get a bit facinating.

A friend of mine, Marshall Teage, has used a spear on black bear and wild boar. He's a former naval special forces guy and I'd rather fight the bear he was hunting than him. He's a professional actor now, you've seen him before, but I have no doubt that he'd try it and get pissed at you for backing him up with anyting bigger than another spear.
Me personally, we'll see how my divorce goes. Then I'll think about hunting grizz with a spear....or mabey a butter knife.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Madgoat I guess if it is so hopeless to defend oneself against Grizzly attack because they are so fast and tough one could never get a shot off any way one should never hunt them or never go armed.

Shit if they are that super of a animal how come we almost wiped them out.

There is a big difference between hunting a bear with a .416, and using a .38 for self defense as you walk along a north facing slope during the middle of the day and jumping a bear out of his day bed.

P-dog, it is very obvious to me that you don't have any experience hanging around these animals. You would be lucky just to hit a charging bear with your .38, let alone kill one before he takes several chunks out of you.

MG

I have lots of experience with bears matter of fact I just got done measureing the 4 bear skulls I have in the house. The live wieghts were between 200 and 400lbs. 4 inchs of penetration will easly get you into the center of the brain on all of them from the side. 7 inchs of penetration well get you into the center of the brain on all of them from the front.

A 38 spl with 158 gr lwc gives the avg of 20 plus Inchs of penetration in Balistic gel. Easly 3 to five times as much as one needs.

And just for info I hunted, camped, backed packed ect ect in most of western states AK and Canadian. I have had grizzys and blks walk through camp. I have backed down bears that stood less the 30 yards away stomping their feed and popping their teeth. Knowning with out a dought that that if they came at me they would die.

I shoot thousands of rounds of pistol ammo every year and have for the past 35 years. I have faced down armed felons(a lot more dangeous then any bear). I have no dought that I can and could hit and kill a bear as needed.

You're living in a dream world buddy...I've worked with bears for a number of years, and seen them do shit that would turn you white. Seen them absorb lead, take tremendous amounts of punishment, have incredible wounds and keep on going long after they should be dead.

Frankly, the little black bear you "backed down" is kiddy shit compared to what a frightened or suprised grizzly would do to you. I too in my day to day duties deal with felons and firearms, and I can say without a doubt, they can't hold a candle to a mad bear.

MG

It's called the .338 Win. Mag. It doesn't fit in the cylinder of a Model 10.

Madgoat
I guess that if you would rather bend over and kiss your ass good by then fight back that is ok for you.

I too have seen what bears can do you just have to watch a small to large bears tear stumps or roll rocks around. One only has to see the damage a bear can to to a person or other animal to realize how strong and tough and dangerous they are.

But bears no matter of what type can be killed and have been killed by handguns in selfdefense situations.

If one is going to be chomped by a bear of no matter what type and one has a .38 in his hands it would be much better to use it to defends one self then.

Then live in the DREAM WORLD OF PLAYING DEAD that the pro bear anti hunting growd would have you belive.

So Madgoat would you rather play dead or fight back. You seem to think that bears are bullet proof. Don't you think a bullet in a bears brain is going to kill it. Don't you think that bear is going to die with his heart and lungs shot out. Sure they might still chomp on you if not put down right away but if they are going to chomp on you anyway what are you losing from fighting back.

A armed felon and kill and wound you from a lot farther away the any bear. What would you rather face a bear or some armed felon with fire arm if they were both intent on killing you. IF you are in law enforcement you should know of the many cases of people taking mutiple rounds and keep going also.

So you are not going to defend yourself against a armed felon because he might take mutiple hits to put down.

I will admit that if it comes down to hand to hand no weapons I'll take the person. But when it comes to taking on a armed person or a bear I'll take the bear.

Arms are what make us the superior hunter and killers. If it were not so we would not have to worry about killing off are wildlife populations.

No Madgoat I live in a very realistic world I have defended myself from serious attack on more then once . I can and will do it again if needed.

Do think that mother that had her child killed in TN yesterday is better off today for not being armed. Do you think that if she was armed with a .38 she would have done more harm then good as the bear is attacking and killing her kid.
So Madgoat if a bear of what ever type was attacking your child and all you had was a .38 I guess one would be much better off leaving the bear alone then shooting it.

NO where in here have I said that a 38 is the best bear defense arm to carry but it sure in the hell beats a fist, rock,knife or stick.

Unless you are in the mind set to bend over and let the bear do what bears do.

P-dog, I have worked directly with grizzly bears for a number of years. I have seen what they can do to human flesh, and know several people who have been unfortunate enough to end up on the wrong side of a mad bear.

The most common remark was "I can't believe how fast everything happened".

You can sit there in Wisconson, 1500 miles away from a wild grizzly bear, and armchair quarter back this subject all you want to. All I'm going to say is if you jump a grizzly bear on his day bed, he is going to be on you faster than you can point your finger and go "bang", let alone get a good sight picture and hit where you're aiming. I doubt you can hit an object the size of a grapefruit moving through the brush that is traveling at you at 44 feet per second.

I suggest you read Stephen Herrero's book "Bear Attacks", and actually try to learn something, rather than pull shit outta your ass.

MG

Matter of fact I read his book on bear attacks a couple of years ago and lots of others. More then 20 years ago I had a freind end up on the wrong side of a bear I know what they can do.

I guess you should do more research on people who have killed grizzlys with hand guns that were charging them. Before you throw out shit.

Just because your skill level is such that you could not hit what your shooting at. Not all people shoot that poorly.Maybe you should hit the range more offten so your able to bring skill level up.

Yea Iam in Wisconsin now But stated before I have traveled and been in Grizzly country a lot.

So andswer this question How does one or did anybody ever stop a grizzy with a handgun. Or in your case no one must ever have. Do the reseach I have I have studied bear attacks for as long as I can remember. And lots more then one person have defended themselfs with a hand gun.

quote:

Just because your skill level is such that you could not hit what your shooting at. Not all people shoot that poorly.Maybe you should hit the range more offten so your able to bring skill level up.

You just don't get it do you? I couldn't give a shit if you're in the class of shooters as Latham or Avery, your chances of stopping a charging bear with your pistol are so slim you're better off using it on yourself. My knowledge of this is from actually WORKING with these animals, and working besides some of the best grizzly experts in the lower 48. The last time I attended the International Conference on Bear Management and Research, 99% of the folks there recommended bear spray over a firearm, an even then there was NO mention of pistols as being a useful tool in stopping a charging bear.

You have no actual experience with any of this, and just because you walked through Yellowstone once, frankly doesn't carry any weight with me.

quote:

Yea Iam in Wisconsin now But stated before I have traveled and been in Grizzly country a lot.

Really? Are you out there every day? Do you deal with these animals on a daily basis?

Frankly I don't know of ANYONE who has stopped a bear with a pistol, but I have talked to a few who tried with high powered rifles. The majority of them ended up in the emergency room. I do know several folks who successfully deployed bear spray, and didn't receive a scratch.

I guess they are just a bunch of bunny hugging pussies...funny how they didn't end up in the hospital...or in the ground.

MG

Yes I now know where you are coming from.

If you would bother even reseraching on this forum. You would find a couple of storys on pistol saves.

But your type would much rather have a mauled human then a dead bear. You refused to reconize that firearms are a viable option because you belive that a grizzly should not be killed.

There are several people on this board that have stopped grizzlys with rifles just look under the AK forum. But again you refused to do so.

So your a pro grizzly anti human.

You refused to andswer even one of my questions. All you do when you cannot fight facts and common sense as with any anti you start calling names.

So to clear things up will you andswer the following questions.

1 How old are you.
2. Who are you employed by
3. Are you a sworn Law enforcement officer (you made the Ref.)
4. What type of Handgun do you carry on a daily basics.
5. When was the last time you have been to the range.
6. When was the last time you hunted and killed any type of bear.
7. Do think it was better that the 6yoa girl was killed in TN then haveing the bear shot and killed.

8 If bears are so F--king tough and so dam hard to kill how come we almost wiped them out and have to protect them so much. How come we have to have laws protecting the bears from us and not us from the bears.

9. Do you favior the grizzly being taken off the list and hunting allow in areas that the population is stable and growing

10 Are you a transplant to Wyoming.



Again I may be wrong but I do not belive you will andswer these Questions you have not andswered any before.

Yes a lot of people who carry bear spray are bunny hugging wennies or buy law can not carry anything esle more effective.

quote:

I guess you should do more research on people who have killed grizzlys with hand guns that were charging them. Before you throw out shit.

quote:

There are several people on this board that have stopped grizzlys with rifles just look under the AK forum. But again you refused to do so.

Well what is it? Pistols or rifles? I never said anything about rifles, I have only stated that PISTOLS are not a good option to stop a charging bear. You only increase chances to injure yourself, and then even if you do manage to hit the bear, your chances of killing him outright are SO SMALL you're only going to receive more punishment from him. You want me to answer your little questions? Fine.

1. 30-40
2. None of your business
3. Yes, and have been for a number of years.
4. I carry a Springfield .45 at work.
5. Yesterday.
6. Four years ago...killing depredating bears on a regular basis gets kind of old...you really don't feel like hunting one after killing dozens at work.
7. Don't know the facts of what happened in that deal...very different circumstances between a black bear who is actively predating on a human, and a grizzly bear who is frightened, or protecting cubs. It is an unfortunate thing....but I don't know all the facts about that case.
8. Unregulated take, *POISON*, unregulated trapping....folks back then killed bears every chance they got... and they didn't do it with pistols. A female grizzly needs to be 5-6 years old before she can have cubs. It doesn't take long to knock the population down once you start killing, poisoning every one you see. Go to the library and check out a book on bear biology and try to actually learn something.
9. Yes...should have been done 10 years ago.
10. No, third generation. Why does this matter?

You got that fucked up hillbilly attitude that i run into every day at work...you don't know shit about bears, and all you can do is fill up space with misspelled words and fodder.

Spray works...all the experts agree...and if you're in L.E. you should know that fine motor skills in a time of extreme stress don't work so well, with spray it is all gross motor, and even a person of your stature, could probably figure out how to use it.

MG

I prefer snake shot for the really big bears.

There you go personaly attacking me.

Spray doesn't work all the time.

Like the case in Glacier with in the last couple of years. Where the two women were mauled after spraying a bear. How long does it take to get a can of spray into action at least as long as a fire arm or longer if you have you worry about pulling th safetypin.

No not all the experts agree on bear spray mostly only those who are on the envro wako side. Then only because they worrry more about the bears then people. The one thing spray does for sure is not kill the bear. You shoot a bear it is most likely going to die sometime.

The only reason we have bear spray is to save bears and because of the anti gun growd who well do anything to show firearms are not useful.

It is no more effective then a well aim shot maybe less. On a windy,rainy day, brush ect has a very adverse effect on spray realy cuts down the distance that it works or if it even hits the animal all. Most likely well never get to the bear and will effect you if bear charges with the wind in your face.

If the spray doesn't work and that is your only line of defense then what are you going to do. In your case pull your 45 and blast the critter. or are you going to fall down a play dead.

You talk about fine motors skills I have trained hundreds of law enforcement officers. I am a ceritifed Instructor in rifles, pistols, shotguns, patrol carbines. Teach at are state patrol academy ect. Motor skills are developed through training and practice. I hear it all time 99 percent of the time from offcers who do not train who do not pratice who are just to dam lazy to spend the time. Who couldn't shoot a good score in training let alone under stress.

I have watched lots of officers totaly miss full size targets at very close range when put under stress they always come up with some lame reason for not doing well. Ive seen them jerk so badly that they hit the ground just feet in front of themselfs. But when you try and correct them they just complain that they did not and hell its just practice any way " but by god when the shit hits the fan I'll be able to do it."

If one can not use firearms useful defensive weapon how does any hunter stop any attacking animal from lions, tigers , bears and things.

I run into your so called forward thinking attitude all time. Mostly promoted by save the critter growd. The playing dead was brought on by not allowing people the right to defend themselfs. So the Save the critter growd had to come up with some stuiped exercise to make people think that one shouldn't carry or you don;t have to because if you just play dead the nice bear isn't going to hurt you.

Because it is all your fault that the nice bear is attacking you any way.

I can tell you right now that if that mother of the 6 yoa would have been armed she would have been better off shooting the bear then trying to beat it off her child with her fists. It ran off when the ranger fired a couple of shots at it.

It seems like your way do afraid of admitting that firearms work because someone well kill the bear instead of scaring it off.

Yea you're right P-dog. I've only handled 100 some odd bears, work in grizzly bear habitat, and have talked to many of the finest grizzly bear experts in the country. I've also talked to many folks who have had to spray or shoot a bear. I guess I just don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Maybe I should become a transplan to WI and become an expert on the subject.

It is people like you who get mauled when you travel to bear country, becuase you put all your faith in a firearm and don't use your brain in the field. Most bear encounters can be avioded, but those that can't be you're better off with spray. It has been proven time and time again. If you are an "actual" law man, you've probably been sprayed with OC. Multiply that times 100, and you have the potency of GOOD spray (not that cheap shit you get at Cabela's). If you have ever actually sprayed it, you would see that it bucks the wind nicely, creates a big cloud (that effects the mucus membranes) that is easy to use.

I guess the next time I am riding in bear country, and see a .38 in a pile of bear shit, I'll know that things didn't go as well as you would have liked.

MG

Argue all you want...I'm done arguing with someone who has never "been there or done that".

MG