If you are off by an inch on an ass shot you are going to loose a hell of a lot of meat. I don't understand how anyone can doubt that.

Since you don't take this type of shot. Just how the hell do you know what margin of error is involved. I've got news for you its more then an inch margin.


Hell with goatchokers alternative lifestyle his asshole is reportedly stretched out to at least 6inches.

I shot a good, previously wounded, whitetail buck right through the hips once to end the deal. I was shooting a 280 remington and 140gr ballistic tips. At 25 yds it put him down right now, and he was stone dead when I got to him. Even with those abominable BT's, the amount of wasted meat was negligable.

Chuck

I forgot RMK, you are the expert on asshole diameters for everything that you can get your hands on. What a bunch of bullshit.

I think you just summed up the entire point of this post, or at least the firearm size and ass shooting part. Small rifles are fine if used by a disiplined shooter. I also agree that if something is wounded, I'm going to shoot at whatever piece of hair I can get my sights on to put it down. At that point I don't care about loosing some meat. I just don't agree with people intentionally shooting at the rear end of an animal just because that's the only shot that is offered.

I don't respect anyone who beats his chest as a world class ourdoorsman, then endorses a canned hunt. Give or take, a fence is a fence.
I don't recall any personal attacks, but what do you call your post BCBOY?? I too have grown up in griz country. I don't recall being an advocate for not shooting a bear when it actually attacks, but anyone who has spent any time around bears and who has been charged knows 90% of the time it is just a bluff. No sense shooting a bear that is just trying to protect itself. You need to read up on your so called "literature".
Then you state "I have yet to hear anyone here advocate shooting any animal in the asshole, but, rear end shots are sometimes necessary to avoid an animal escaping with a wound and anybody who actually has hunted for a while knows that."
Why don't you just shoot them from the truck while drunk? I can't believe a so called hunter would even type that!!! It is obvious that you know nothing of the word "ethics". It is hunters like yourself that are giving the anti's so much to bitch about.

So madgoatchoker,how many times have you been charged by a grizzly? Did you pull your 90% figure out of your ass,or did you read it in some tree hugger publication.

In wyoming,the vast majority of bear attacks,are the result of grizzlies coming into downed game. You simply don't have time to decide wether a bear is bluffing or not.Most people are blind sided by bears,before they can react. Just like you said goatchoker,wyoming bears have no fear of man because they aren't hunted.Therefore they seldom bluff.

I've seen few people who are as fuckin' stupid as goatchoker. You need to get outside once in a while goatchoker. If you did,you wouldn't come up with so many of your stupid fuckin' ideas.

I'm sure you know RMK...you're one of the many who are scared shitless of bears, therefore don't hunt in on the western side of the state. You can quit proving your ignorance at any time....
RMK has the typical redneck attitude towards wildlife. ANything that annoys him, scares him, or is smarter than him...just kill it.

How many times have you actually been charged and where was this?



What was your reaction to this charge?



When do most of these "bluff charges" actually happen?



How many Grizzlies have you actually shot or been involved

in the shooting of, when and where did this/these take place?



What are the current population estimates of Grizzlys in Wyoming and how many of these bears are shot every year?



When does a Grizzly "bluff charge" most frequently and how does he act while doing so? What is the most frequent indicator that an approach is a "bluff' rather than a potentially lethal attack?What is the major motivation behind "bluff charges"?



Why would anyone not take every opportunity to stop/kill a wounded animal by shooting it again and trying to break the pelvic girdle or drive a bullet through the paunch into the CVS?



What is your professional background in forestry/wildlife management and how many years field experience do you have?



Why do you make snide comments about my original post on this topic and then whine when I finally respond in kind?



I have detailed my experience upon which I base my opinions, so, why don't you do the same, if you have any.



Your comment about drunks shooting from trucks is exactly the sort of thing you have put into every one of your posts and that is what I have responded to. As far as growing up in Grizzly country is concerned, are you now going to tell me that Wyoming is a far more wild and unsettled area than B.C. with far more Grizzlies? Get real, for fuck sake, you aremaking a total fool of yourself and your continual attacks upon Ray are both infantile and assinine.



BTW, I spent many years where I would be in the most remote parts of B.C.-Alberta roadless wilderness, completely alone, for 3-5.5 months at a time. I lived in 15 ft. sq. cabins with sheepherder stoves, candles and packed my wood, water and food in on my back. These were without any break and I would see a helicopter pilot once or twice per season.



I would often have to walk past Grizzlies within 10 yds., simply to get to my waterhole and my weather station. I started when I was 18 and was expected to be a man and pull my weight. Unless you have this kind of real, wilderness experience, don't presume to lecture me.



As far as reading Grizzly literature is concerned, I am very well acquainted with many of the foremost biologists and researchers working in the field and have been published, in periodicals on bear issues on several occasions. So, let's hear what you have done, since you are the most "real hunter" of us all, why not reply to my questions?



BTW, I just went back and carefully read every post on this thread and I did not see where Ray refered to any form of "canned hunt"; he did refer to public land hunting in Idaho. I am waiting for a detailed reply to my questions.....

I have encountered similar things with wannabe cowboys. They act like they know it all, treat a horse like they own them and are invariably the ones that end up getting their heads kicked off. So stand their with your pepper spray, read the old boy's mind and let us know how you make out. I'll shoot the bugger bluff or not, as I'm not willing to second guess a grizzly.



Chuck



P.S. I have seen firsthand what a grizzly can do with its "bare hands". Noone wants any part of it I can assure you!

There is really no point trying to compare myself to BCBOY aka "GOD". He obviously is an immortal to all us "others" who do not bow to his mighty way. If we could only hope to kiss the spots where he walked.....
I could reply to your questions as to my experience and education, years spent in the field, and the like which I am sure would settle any doubt that I know what I'm talking about. However, there is a law of diminishing returns and I'm sure he would just go low like the other slimeballs who use these posts to beat their chests and compare dick sizes, and would find something else to bash me on.
"yea, I would walk 50 miles one way up hill in four feet of snow just to get the mail...do it every day and had to fight off injuns along the way".

Give us all a break...nothing I say or do is going to please anyone so I'm not even going to bother. I'm just amazed you got to be such an outdoorsman hunting with Ray on his canned hunt at Comstock Lodge. Do they have griz there too??

I actually have never met Ray or spoken with him and do not have the least idea what this Comstock Lodge is. What I object to is the fact that you cannot seem to make a post without trying to slag someone and you treat other's honestly offered opinions with contempt as demonstrated by your snide comments.

I am not a "slimeball" and I have not made any untoward comments about anybody; I have simply questioned you because I find your remarks inconsistent and not very credible. If, you do not want to discuss this issue, fine, I think that you have just demonstrated exactly how much integrity and knowledge you have-or lack.

Frankly, you started making the offensive remarks and questioning other people's integrity, so, is it a surprise to you that I, among others, would find this unacceptable? I think that maybe you need to stop and think about this for awhile, I have no animosity toward you and have no desire to embarrass you, either. I am willing to respect everyone's opinion, but, I am not willing to accept unwarranted, snide remarks.

In any case, if you do not want to reply to my questions, fine; in future, maybe try to be less aggressive toward those of us who may not agree with you and you may find fewer unpleasant comments directed at you.

Madgoat, it's not possible to verify everyones claims of how much experiance over the internet.
The one thing it is possible to verify is that Kutenaymtnboy has responded in a polite gentlemanly fashion, You have not.......DJ

They're runnin' away boys, shoot 'em in the ass! Come on, what a bunch of crap. The only time a shot like that should be taken is if the animal has already been wounded and there is no other way to prevent it's escape. If you can't work yourself into a better shot than a rear end one, you might just have to go home empty handed. I know that sounds strange, but it is possible to have a great hunt without firing a shot.

Hey dude from BC, does your last name happen to be Adams? Do you own a bear named Ben?

Hey Madgoat, this guy's obviously the expert, the rest of us lowly ones aren't worthy, so we shouldn't even bother sharing our opinions at all.

Here aks him if pepper spray works.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/01/01/russian_bear_expert_found_dead_in_woods/

Here is another one
http://outside.away.com/outside/news/20031008_1.html
I dont have experinace with Grizzlys or Browns but I do with blacks and I know this if you go in a whore house enough times with out protection and you are going to catch something and if you play games with the devil you will get burned. Ask these people because they thought they knew everything there was to know about bears because they lived with them and they had more experiance with them than just about anybody on this site and where are they now? They are dead because they thought they knew animals and animals can turn on you anytime plain and simple. How many of you know somebody that has been bit by their own dog that never did that before? Only thing is when 1000 lbs of teeth and claws comes charging its kill or be killed. I once watched a guy that was 6'9" and 350lbs of solid Muscle wrestle a 700lbs Brown at a show. The guy lasted about 5 seconds and he was on the ground. That bear tossed that guy around like he was a paper bag. Now I see you are from Wyoming well a friend of the family lives in Cody and Hunts Elk every year. I asked him if I could go with him one year and he said sure than he asked me what kinda rifle I was going to use I said 7mm STW and he said that would be fine because we would be hunting together and he would have a 338/378 Weatherby I asked him what the hell do you need that canon for? He said bears and I was like what do you mean? Then he told me that he has had a few bears stalking him when he was packing out elk by horses. So give me a gun over pepper spray cause I have seen a pitbull on animal planet take a shot of it point blank in the face and it didnt even phase him.

If interested in hearing some real encounter stories? Go to

http://www.pepperpower.com/testify.htm

Good stuff from people who have tried and survived. I have met Mark Matheny...after talking with him and hearing what happened I am a believer.

MG

That is why the Alaska F&G on their web site says to NEVER use a firearm against a bear...only pepper spray.

Go to
http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/aawildlife/bearfax.cfm

I guess they are a bunch of dumbasses like me too.

MG

Madgoat... Why would a government agency endorse anyone to use a firearm, in print? If you read the first paragraph they explain that guns are effective, but that people are idiots and will hurt themselves instead. Game and fish carry guns. Its even manditory for the forest service "summer boys" building trails to have one and train before taking one.

I doubt you have ever been charged by a bear, and if you had... at what time did you make a determination that it was a bluff charge? Like a few of the other posters here, I grew up in the back woods of S.E. AK. If you live in certain areas (like mine) and Kboys, it isnt uncommon to see 10-40 bears a day. As a boy I got to learn some bear behavior by being an idiot and abusing them. I understood that if a bear turned, snapped/growled that was it, but if he was comming he wasnt bluffing, and there was no time to understand shit.

Come to think of it, I've never seen a fishbug without a gun, and usualy its a pistol and a rifle/shotgun.

I just read the entire thread on the Comstock Lodge hunts which I had not done before as I do not hunt in the U.S.A. I now see where Madgoat's comments concerning Ray were derived from which I did not before.

I have no interest in this sort of hunting, but, I think that people have the right to do this if they wish. I still find that slagging each other in the discussions we have is counter-productive and a waste of time and energy.

There have been recent incidents here in B.C. where B.C.F.S. staff have used pepperspray to deter Grizzlies, it can work, but, it sometimes fails and, as I have said, I do not like to use it in windy conditions-this after extensive tests. In fairness to MG, I would say that one's behaviour in bear country is more important than what firearm you carry; in hunting season in the mountains, I always carry a bear gun; in Salmon season on the coast I often don't bother as the bears are seldom aggressive.

As far as my pet bear is concerned, his name is not "Ben", it is "Woden" and he is a purebred Rottweiler of 160 lbs, in hard condition. His "little" brother is 'Axel" who is only 120 lbs. and the temperamental resemblance to a pissed off Grizzly can be remarkable!

The situation concerning firearms and government agencies is different from the USA. We were, in the B.C.F.S. and the A.F.S. sternly told that it was against regulations to carry any firearm while on duty and that, even in remote wilderness camps, they must be kept out of sight-this is no shit!

We all carried and many quietly carried .44 handguns as we realized that the regulation was there to cover the govenment's ass against liability; of course, while in public view, one uses a certain discretion so the PETA assholes don't get in your face-now there is something we should all agree on!

Well said. I agree I to have had a few pissing matches with other hunters on the net and I believe it is not for the good of anyone. I think if WE as hunters put the same energy we have bitching at one another we could stop all these laws being passed and shut PETA down for good. Look at parts of Canada no more spring bear hunting and other states in the US having Season closed or put off because of the PETA wako's are freedoms are slipping away one by one and I think we need to put a little more energy into other things besides knocking each other down. " Cant We All Just Get Along"? As for the hunting on a fenced ranch I for one will only do it for the meat and I dont consider it a hunt its a shoot. Now if you want to do it and consider it a hunt that is up to you.

What exactly does rays comstock zoo hunt,have to do with goatchoker being a fuckin' idiot,who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.



Ray sells trips and makes money. Who gives a fuck wether somebody finds an enclosed hunt ethical. It still doesn't change the fact,that magnum rifles have their place in hunting and that pepper spray is a gamble,with the odds stacked against you.

I think these forums are beneficial for all of us, even when we disagree. Yea, they can get out of hand once in awhile, but they make you think about things from other's viewpoints. If we all agreed on everything, and we all knew everything, then these forums would be very boring. I don't think anyone ever means to truly offend anyone here, regardless of the names people are called. Hell, RMK has called me everything in the book, and even though I don't agree with him all the time (sometimes I do) I kind of enjoy his posts. So really, I do think that we all get along. That's why we spend so much time here.

I would love to spray RMK with pepper spray to see how well he copes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Shooting an elk in the ass is like snagging a trout in the back with a treble hook. You won't catch me doing either.

And for those "hunters" who say that they have the "right" to do it because they spent a lot of money. That is sadder than sad. Do us all a favor and move back/stay in New Jersey.

Steve

I don't want to get anyone's panties in a wad, but this whole thread is mostly the result of too many variables & relative issues.

If a guy shoots better w/ his light rifle, is willing to pass up a less that perfect shot on a world-class animal, uses good bullets and never hunts where there is dangerous possabilities (Griz), Yeehaw for him.

But, I can and have made tough shots on big animals (moose and elk)because I was shooting .300/.338 at angles that I would have had to pass up w/ a .270. BUT Magnums are not an excuse or license for poor marksmanship and despite some tough shots, I've NEVER lost an animal, nor have I ever lost more than 5 or 10 lbs of extra meat. On 1000+ lbs of animal, you'll lose more than that by being a lousy meat-cutter ("butcher" to you guys that have never done it for a living).

Someone who is proficient w/ a magnum, hunts terrain that might create long shots (ask Dave Miller about how far he shoots coues deer w/ something like 15 in Boone & Crocket), or where unfriendly critters are likely. More power to him!

Meaning no disrespect to anyone in the lower 48,but having lived & hunted in Northern BC, from Ft. Nelson to Telegraph Creek, there is nothing like it in the lower 48. Unless you've been there, not w/ a guide, but lived and hunted on your own there you can't grasp what it is like (and I imagine Alaska is the same way).

The last year I was in BC (Prince George - '96) we had 10 grizzly attacks, 8 were mauled (one a aquaintance from the gym, w/ nearly 200 stitches), & two dead. Twice I was TOO Close on Grizzly (by accident). Though both times all parties involved walked away w/o harm, it was touch and go. Both times I was THANKFUL for the Magnum rifle I was packing. Talk to some of the guys that live, work, guide in that country (as all my in-laws do). Pepper spray is a role of the dice; it DOES NOT reliably disuade a real attack! A .338 Mag. does!

I agree, the forum would be extremely boring and useless if everyone had the same views. The very reason most of us come here is to share ideas, and that includes talking some smack once in a while. Those of you who can't handle someone disagreeing with you now and then should just open up your word processors and write posts to yourself. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy...

Madgoat, that I would like to see. "It burns, it burns!!!" Of course, RMK could probably handle the pain from the spray, I mean hell, it's got to burn worse when he takes a leak.

I'll be the first to admitt that I believed your wife gutshot,when she said her blow jobs wouldn't make my dick burn. But she's a fucking liar just like you,however she does suck a mean dick.

What I can't believe,is goatchoker actually allowed gutshot to lube his ass up with pepperspray,right before one of their famous love sessions.

That is exactly my point and very well put, too. I started living alone in the bush in northern B.C. in 1972 when it was far more isolated than it is now and the Grizzlies had absolutely no fear of humans. In those days, we had Bell B-47 helicopters, indifferent radio communication and if you got hurt alone in the bush, you damned well died, probably in agony.

It seems as though there are more bears now than ever and even very experienced guys who were born and raised in the bush there are getting attacked. I think that Grizzlies generally have very little fear of humans, whether they are hunted or not; in fact, some of them seem to enjoy being close to humans and others seem to have contempt for us and do not hesitate to kick ass.

Last September, on Gatho Creek, the guides absolutely would not go into a certain "lick" because of one particular boar that had taken up residence there as he was so mean. If it were me, I would have baited him in and shot him and then burned the carcass as a bear like that is both extremely dangerous and will not modify it's behaviour.

I expect it was this type of bear that killed and ate that Treadwell idiot and his chick in Alaska; evidently he harassed many legitimate hunters as do many whackos here in B.C., so, what goes around-comes around, I guess.

Be careful talking about treadwell. Thats goatchoker fallen hero.

Funny thing is, when I made my last post on this thread I shot it in the ass on the way out. Freakin' thing is still alive! I'm overdue for my meds, y'all have fun!

Dan

Pres., TYGC

www.DartInThe.Ass

Gutshot with a name like that I dont think I would be talking about shot placement There I am not a dull boy now am I

Good idea george,why don't you get the fuck out of here.

Is CWD airborne in Wyoming, and has it crossed into mankind?

George,
RMK is just a good example of a 15 year old on the internet trying to prove he's a man. Problem is he hasn't the faintest idea of what that really means.

Jeff

RMK,



I've read enough of your posts to know that you have a brain and can use it. I've seen you make a number of intelligent posts. What I don't understand is why you insist on belittling your argument and destroying your own integrity by posting the kind of foul-mouthed immature crap that you have above? It certainly does not help you make your point, and it sure as heck doesn't sound "tough". No-one is tough on the internet.



Everybody knows that one only resorts to profanity and personal attacks when the argument can't be won with logic. Anyway, the truth is that I really don't care what you do to your own reputation or to scuttle your own arguments. I don't understand it, but if you want to sound childish, that's your choice. I do not appreciate the way you defile these forums with your "colorful" language, though, and hope that you can at least clean it up out of respect for those here that have kids participating in the forums. If hunting and shooting will survive, its because it is a family activity and kids are being brought into the sport. These forums are a valuable place for anyone to learn. Why don't you try setting a good example?



Respectfully,

Canuck