For years I've read O'Conner and Keith and have begun to think that the real difference between them is what the hunted most of. O'Conner was mainly a deer and sheep hunter. Neither are noted for being very hard to kill. Keith hunted a lot of elk in steep wooded mountains and often had to take bad angle shots - He called them "raking shots". Elk are noted for being a lot tougher to kill or at least kill before they limp off to the next mountain range.
I've always thought however that it's better to ere on the side of too much than too little when it comes to Hunting live game. Deer aren't that hard to kill and so a little too much starts a lot earlier than it would for Elk. But for Elk and larger game I think Elmer's dictum of using the most powerful gun that you can SHOOT WELL is sound advice........DJ

Guys tell me that my 300 is to big for deer and their partly right. I mean you wont to make shure that there not another deer or two standing behind the one your shooting at or theres going to be more on the ground than you'r planing on. The old saying is right dead is dead.

For some one that only shoots deer with a .243 to say that your 708 is too much gun I think would be wrong, or a guy that uses a 375 H&H saying it's not enough. All will do the job under the right conditions and the right shooter.

As to where you stand, I would say in front of the BarBQ fliping stakes, looking at smiles on kids faces and planing next years hunts.

All calibers will "kill" but, the fact is: Bigger and Faster is better.

I have seen dozens of animals shot w/ standard calibers and most of the time they ran a good bit after impact but, sometimes they fell at impact. I have seen whitetails run 200 yards when shot w/ a 6mm rem right behind the shoulder. I have been on several long-long blood trails on deer shot right behind the shoulder w/ a 30-30 win But, alot of the time they dropped at the shot.

Now, I have seen dozens shot w/ the Magnum rifles and it seems that they drop just about every time. If they did get up, they only ran 20-30 yards. The Magnums do more internal damage than any standard cals. Its just plain and simple, when they are hit w/ far greater velocities the kill is much quicker and cleaner.

Many have been "bashing" "Magnum Hunters," well, it seems to me that the magnum hunters are being alittle more ethical in the killing department. How can you look down on that?

I dont see why people keep saying Magnums are hard to shoot, chances are if you can shoot a standard cal. w/ accuracy, you should be able to do the same w/ a Magnum. There are to many modern stocks and modifications out to make the magnums have about the same recoil as a standard cal.



Good Luck!

Reloader

Brad-I totally agree with you.I'm not knocking anyones choice for hunting but the .338 simply is not the best choice in my opinion when Deer are on the menu also.The old .06 is hard to beat for an all around gun with hunting bullets from 150-250 grains and with the High Energy rounds it's the same ballistically as the old .300 H&H Mag with factory loads.There's a bunch of good calibers out there that work well on Elk and the label of Magnum doesn't make it better or worse than some of the non-magnums.My wife just got her last Bull with a 8MM Mauser and it did very well with a one shot kill but on paper it looks bad.I guess Elk don't read.

Jayco.

8mm Mauser, huh... that elk definately couldn't read, LOL!

I really like the 338 WM... it might even be my favorite elk cartridge but I agree with you, it's not the best for casual shooters even if they're hard-core, real-deal hunter's. As to deer... well, I haven't seen that it does any more "meat damage" than lesser rounds like the 06.' The 270/06'class can be built lighter and still remain shootable. The 338 WM really needs a bit more heft and that doesn't necessarily make for a nice, easy tote'n deer rifle. Apart from that, unless a guy goes over to his downed deer and starts beating it with the butt of his 338 WM I really don't think it's "overkill", LOL!

All The Best,

Brad

After having read all of these posts...one thing is clear. I don't care what you are shooting, but a guy taking "bad angle shots", "shots through timber", "raking shots" or "shots at long distances" are anything but ethical and should NOT be taken. I hear "sometimes you have to take these shots" and just cringe...this is the reason why we cripple, or lose animals. I have heard nothing about letting an animal walk or waiting for a better angle. We owe it to the critter to put it down as fast as possible, all that is being endorsed is "if you have a large enough caliber, you can try to take these shots".
The whole "I'm hunting in griz country, therefore I need a magnum" is a bunk belief. I live and hunt in thick griz country here in Wyoming, 90% of folks can hardly crap their pants before a bear is on top of them, and even if they have a chance to shoot there more than likely to miss. Bear spray is the only way to go....hard to miss a charging bear with a cloud of liquid hell.

MG

Madgoat,
Thats just not right..A going away shot with a "proper caliber and bullet" will put an elk down faster than any broadside shot as it tears up a lot more inside him along with his heart and lungs and most of the time his spine...Its a very ethical shot...

Sometimes I wonder if some of you folks have ever been elk hunting, you act like all you have to do is walk out a block from the car and take the perfect broad side shot, well you are in for a wake up call.

I will guarentee you today if you are hunting elk in Idaho or in any National Forest, you had better be prepared to take whatever shot you get or you are going to go home consistently without your elk...The national success rate is about 10% on bull elk without a guide and about 19% with a guide..

I hunt the prime elk country in and around Salmon, Id. every year and I have to hunt hard and long to get a shot and when I do I get the job done, whatever it takes..

You better tell the 80 deer with 80 shots I shot with my 338 win mag that were over killed.I shot them as close as 3 yards out to 425 yards.I love the 338 win mag with 200 gr Winchester power points .It does not tear up meat or blood shot like 30-06 and 270s do.I have dropped all of them in their tracks.I got tired of trailing deer with my 30-06 that were shot past 100 yards.The 338 win mag is the perfict all around cartridge for all North American Game .I have shot black bears ,big wild hogs ,caribou and even coYotes with it.You can kill any deader than dead in their tracks.Most of my 338 win mags will shot 1" or less at 100 yards.I have two that will shoot less than an inch at 200 yards.In the Ruger model 77 with the heavier barrels it kicks straight back about the same as 20 ga heavy dove loads to me.I fired two of my 338 win mags 300 times in one day from a standing bench.I tried 243s ,308 , 30-06 and 300 win mag on deer .I would not knock the 338 win mag on deer unless you have tried it.I got mine almost 20 years ago and didnt go back to the 30-06.I sold all my other small rifles and bought a bunch of 338 win mag Rugers.I love the stainless Rugers but its hard to beat the old Ruger Model 77s for speed with the tang safety. I usually pull the trigger and safety at the same time.I have shot over 20 deer running with this gun .Its always brought home the bacon.I even shot my biggest hog with it runnng full blast.I dont think you should knock the 338 win mag till you tried it.I once waited almost all year before I shot at any deer .I shot 4 that day at 250 yards to 375 yards .They all dropped in their tracks.I usually go for shoulder shots and its a silver dollar hole no splintered bone like the 30-06 and 270 do.It also does no have the blood shot of those calibers.I guess I am just so use to the 338 its hard to go backwards in caliber.I just like to see the deer I take suffer as little as possible.I I think 99% dont even fell the 338 hit them.They dont kick for 20 mins like the ones I shot with 30-06 dO.

Ray, you are absolutely right on all counts.

'Too much gun' is only 'too much gun' if you can't shoot it, and with practice and with good equipment selection (well-designed stocks, recoil pads, etc.) and the right attitude, most people can.

"For as he thinks within himself, so is he".
- Proverbs 23:7

I agree with Ray, even more so for moose where I hunt. If you pass up the going away type shots you might as well stay home. A don't see the downside of more gun personally.

I can't give the actual quote, but Elmer Keith once said something to the effect of: If you aren't man enough to use a powerful enough gun you should be humane enough to not wound animals...........DJ

Well Atkinson, just so you know I hunt the largest elk herd in the world, in some darn rough high country. I guess I don't experience the same problems you do with being able to get into position to take a clean shot. Some years I don't get my elk, but that is called hunting...if you just want to kill stuff why not hunt inside a tall fence.
When you stated "whatever it takes", how many bull elk have you shot in the ass just to be sure it doens't get away and you get to fill your tag?? Taking what ever shot you get is the wrong attitude to have. Why don't you just give the anti's the knife to cut hunters throats??

MG

Madgoat
I can't believe that you would just give up and go home if the animal doesn't pose for the perfect shot. A whole year of saving and planning and you just walk away because you don't want to take anything but a storybook shot.

Goatchoker is a fuckin' idiot. Goatchokers hunting skills are so poor,he's lucky if he can find elk period,let alone shoot one and when he does shoot,its a fuckin' cow or calf. As for carrying seasoning in a spray can. Dream on if you think that shit is the end all of bear protection.

Hell goatchoker,I figured with your preferance for taking it in the ass,you'd be all for rays choice in shots.


If magnums are for wimps,then standard cartridges are for pussies like goatchoker,that can't handle any recoil. While speaking of recoil,if you can't handle the recoil of a .338,go back to playing golf or bowling. Most idiots that claim they can't handle the recoil of a magnum rifle, have no problems shooting a 12 guage with heavy loads. Its all in your head.

When you step into the .338 and larger calibers,you get a defined increase in killing power. You might get the same penetration with an 06 and 180gr failsafes as you do with a .338 and 250gr noslers. But you don't get the same wound characteristics. I've shot several elk with the mentioned 06 load and the failsafe is just like an x bullet,it causes half the damage a premium lead core bullet causes and it doesn't kill as fast,especially on lung shots. The only way I've seen an X bullet cause the same tissue damage as a lead core bullet,is by loading light x bullets in magnum cartridges.

As for shooting end to end on elk. I've seen more then one elk that was shot through the lungs or single lung,that was alive and traveled great distances in "pain" before going down. I've yet to see an elk shot length wise with a enough bullet,that took more then three steps.

It would seem that my opinions on rifles to carry and use in Grizzly country are merely a "bunk belief", according to MG. I find it interesting that the B.C. Provincial Government, the Alberta Provincial Government and the Canadian Government found my skills and opinions on this and similiar issues sufficiently realistic to have repeatedly hired me to work, alone and unsupervised, in the Grizzly country of western Canada, from 1965 to 1993.

I also spent considerable time supervising large forestry crews in very isolated areas and was the designated bear protection supervisor on most of these projects. I have actually taught courses on bear defence strategies to working professionals in the resource management field.

After 47 yrs. of bush experience, much of it in the most wild parts of western Canada, I do not consider myself an expert, far from it. But, I do know better than to use bearspray for protection on the windy coast of B.C. where this stuff can and will blow back into your eyes and thus make it difficult to shoot your small bore rifle. As far as defecating in your trousers due to bear activity, I have been within 10 yds. of Grizzlies, alone in the bush, quite often, both armed and unarmed, I have never had this problem.

I find that MadGoats opinions and the manner in which he denigrates people whom he does not know are not indicative of a very high level of real bush experience or of simple courtesy. I seriously doubt that the Grizzly densities in Wyoming are close to those here in B.C. and my experience has demonstrated that Ray Atkinson's opinion on public land Elk hunting is correct. It's quite instructive that those who have the most field experience such as Ray, Allen and a number of the others all have the same opinion on this.

RMK,
Why don't you just come out and say whats on your mind?

What can you say.You have to treat goatchoker like the punk bitch he is.



The problem with grizzlies and pepper spray,is every bear is differant and just like law enforcement has found. Some bears and humans don't have a reaction to pepper spray. On top of this the average grizzly attack in wyoming involves a hunter with a downed animal. The bears are already hungry from poor white pine yields becuase of drought. When they do charge,their stomachs have over rode their brain and they seldom bluff charge. You'd best plan on putting the bastard down fast,unless you want bite marks on your ass.



Goatchoker will believe what ever the forest service and GF tells him. The GF and USFS have spewed the pepper spray garbage for so long that he believes them. The USFS backs the pepper spray mainly because they despise firearms period.

The Most Deadly shot I have seen is the "Texas Heart Shot" Why it got that name I have know idea and if you are from Texas I am not trying to offend you at all. I have seen a few of these over the years the pelvis and spine break and the bullet takes out the lungs and they drop right there no running or anything its game over. Now I do not take these kinda shots unless the animal has been already hit and trying to get away and it is the only thing I have to shoot at. I for one dont like animals suffering anymore than they have to and if a deer or what ever is hit already I take what ever shot I can get to put them down. I also dont see a problem with taking quartering shots weather it be twords you or away from you. This perfact broadside shot stuff is what you see on TV in a game farm setting. I watched a show the other night where the guy would not take a shot on a deer until his head was down feeding? What the hell difference does that make when you are shooting a rifle a 100 yards away and the deer is standing there broadside? RMK I also know alot of guys that are scared to shoot a "Magnum" But when goose season is around they shoot 3 inch 1 3/8 BB 12 Gauge load can someone explain that?

I hear you dakor. A co worker hunts geese every chance he gets. The weapon of choice an 870 with 3 1/2 inch shells. He claims he burns up at least 6 boxes a year. Yet when you talk about a 300 or .338,the guy starts crying about recoil.

Pepper spray is not liquid hell. It's oleoresin capsicum. Ask a cop whether it would stop a charging grizzly at 20 feet. You'll hear about it not even stopping a 110-pound dope fiend.

You are starting to sound curiously like somebody that doesn't know what he's talking about.

kk

I know professional foresters and other outdoors people who spend large amounts of time in the parts of B.C. that have the greatest Grizzly population densities of anywhere on Earth( along with certain parts of Alaska and the Kamchatka area of Russia) and some of them have used bearspray to discourage aggressive bears. BUT, this does not mean that it is as effective as a powerful rifle in over-all bear defence. I have not found that it is much good on those broadside shots at trophy bull Elk that real hunters wait for, either.

The fact that one will seldom get more than one shot in a defensive scenario is, IMHO, a strong inducement to use a .338, rather than an .'06 or .270. The fact that Elk will travel for a half mile with one lung ruptured by a bullet is another reason I prefer a medium bore magnum for hunting them.

I think that the most remote Elk hunting in North America is found in northern B.C. and, even there, they hide in the thick "Swamp Spruce" (Picea Mariana) throughout hunting season and the Grizzlies are in there too-lots of the buggers! I wonder just how much actual time "Madgoat" has spent in country like that, and, if he did experience it, how long it would be before he bought himself a .338 and changed his tune........

I just don't see how anyone can call shooting something up the ass ethical. I don't care what gun you are using, it just doesn't make sence to me. With that mentality, we should all shoot for the ass to break the pelvis so we don't have to follow a blood trail for 100 yards from a lung shot animal. Or on those perfect broadside shots, we should go striaght for the backstraps to drop them in their tracks. Hell, shoot the ass first, then finish them off by shooting them in the back. Then there's less meat to pack out. Whatever.

There is a lot of real estate between a shot at the north end of a south bound animal and a "perfect" broadside shot, and I am not waiting for a broadside shot. There is absolutely no need to with the right bullet/caliber combination. Would I take a shot at a 360 bull elk going away with a 300/338 magnum launching a good bullet at a reasonable distance? Absolutely. Do those shots present themselves very often? Absolutely not.



Chuck

You have to realize too...no one hunts to eat anymore. It is all about the head gear...many folks would rather shoot a critter and just cut the head off and waste the rest. I bet it cramps a lot of these so called "trophy hunters" style knowing they have to waste time gutting and packing the meat out.

Just goes to show, very few folks respect the animals they hunt. They're more than willing to do what ever it takes to get some antlers...even if it means crippling a critter or ruining all the meat.
MG

Madgoat,
Again thats not my experience...Most hunters today preserve the meat and little meat is ruined with a going away shot and the animal does not go more than a few steps with that hit...You might want to check out your local locker plant once in a while and see how many carcasses there are in it...That kind of thinking is just incorrect, and an insult to the hunters of this country..

I know I eat as much game meat as anyone you know as I probably hunt a lot more than about anyone you know..I don't waste..and I don't know any of my friends that waste any meat. I might add that a bullet of heavy construction from a 338 or 375 wastes very little meat and you can eat right up to the hole.

I have found that folks that condem the rear end shot are mostly folks that have not hunted much and are basically none hunters or closet anti hunters...It is a perfectly acceptable shot, not preferred, but acceptable..

MadGoat, Just what part of an Elks asshole are you planning to eat? My wife uses Moleasses in cooking but you don't have to shoot them.

In case some of you haven't seen it here is a warning from Alaska about dealing with Grizzly bears;

The Alaska Department of Fish and Game recently issued this bulletin...

"Warning: In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear conflicts, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.
We advise outdoorsmen to wear noisy little bells on their clothing, so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them.
We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear.
It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity.
Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear manure: Black bear manure is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur.
Grizzly bear manure has little bells in it and smells like pepper."


..........DJ

dgr416,



My brother's go-to deer rifle is a tang-safety Ruger UL .30/06.



I gave him a Rem M700 in .300 Weatherby to go on an elk hunt. A few months before the hunt he shows up with a tang-safety Ruger M77 .338 he ran across at a show.



"What's the matter?", I asked him. "Does that .300 Weatherby not fling enough bullet to suit you?"



"Oh yeah," he said, "but I may not get a lot of time for a shot and I don't want my thumb searching for a safety that isn't there."



He's an excellent game shot (and evidently a lot more sensible than he was as a teenager).

I do not have even one "trophy" in my home, at least mounted although I have a couple of fairly nice racks sitting in a basement closet. I have never killed an animal except for food or to protect from destruction, period.



I happen to obey the law and in almost every part of B.C. there is a 6 point antler restriction on Elk hunting; the forest cover here is also very thick and, as I have said, Elk stay in the timber, except at night. Since I do not "pitlamp", I have to hunt trophy sized animals in thick cover and sometimes MUST take a shot at an animal quartering away from me.This is where my .338 is superior to ANY of my smaller bore rifles.



Also, this is Grizzly country and Elk hunters are frequently confronted by aggressive bears; here again, I have seen better, quicker kills on these animals with the larger bores and heavier bullets. This is actual experience, I find most of Madgoats comments to be not quite believable. I think that maybe MG should listen to Ray; he probably has shot more big game than most of us and his comments are right on.

I don't buy into Ray's comments...the guy hunts elk that are in an enclosed fence and cannot escape. Look at his post on this forum...he says so himself.
As far as griz goes, these bears here in WY are a little different from your BC bruins. These dudes are not hunted...a little law called the ESA. They have NO fear of humans, and are used to stupid people with dirty camps leaving them something to eat. A guy carring a firearm in the forest is nothing more to them than a walking stick carrying granola cruncher. You blast one of them and the USFWS is on your ass...even if it was self defense. I live and hunt with these bears all the time BCboy...give a guy a little credit.

MG

This is counter-intuitive to me. I have nothing against going away shots, but from what I've seen, it does ruin a lot of meat (I'm talking directly away not something you can angle through the ribs). You hit high and you wreck the spine and backstraps, you hit low, you hit the pelvis. Any cartridge with enough steam to make it up to the boiler room from behind is gonna wreck a lot of meat from bone shrapnel if it hits the pelvis area, at least this is what I've seen on deer sized game even from slow poke rounds like the .35 Rem (ruined, both hams, actually). I have not seen larger game taken with this type of shot, but not sure why it would be different. Maybe there's more room to squeeze something up into the vitals w/out hitting bone?

Regards,

Lou

djpaintles mentioned Elmer Keith so I'll chime in....



I read some Keith last night (Gun Notes vol.2).



My favorite line (concerning appropriate cartridges) was "I like to do all my hunting before I shoot..."



I think both he and O'Connor were a little extreme...Keith came of age when bullet performance could be a crapshoot and probably never learned to trust the improvements in small caliber bullets.(BTW, Keith stated the .25-06 was inadequate for pronghorn. )



O'Connor probably trusted them (or his PH back-up) too much on dangerous game. O'Connor, in my opinion, correctly surmised that a .270 or /06 bullet through the heart or lungs is as effective as .338+ cal through them, provided of course that you GET the bullet through them. (BTW a .270 was my first deer rifle, a gift from my uncle, chosen simply because he knew I liked O'Connor so assumed perhaps correctly, that would have been my preference. It remains along with the .308 my favorite for deer, though I hunted with a .243 for several years.)



I suspect a lot of O'Connor's shooting at the large African antelope was done broadside as much terrain and game habits (herding or feeding) lends itself well to good broadside presentation or stalking (or waiting) to get good presentation. An animal spooked or traveling by isn't so accomodating though. Nor in thick cover is it always possible.



Keith took exception to O'Connor's writing about his killing DG (lions and grizzlies) with light rifles because he felt it would invite hunters to go out undergunned.

There's some sense in that I guess. Joe reads about O'Connor taking a grizz eating berries 200 yds from cover with an /06. So Joe takes an /06 on his hunt. Problem is Joe's grizz is feeding only about 20 yds from thick cover. Now Joe is 1000 miles from home and $3000 lighter in the wallet so he will take that easy shot. But he doesn't get the followup shot(s) that O'Connor got and his bear made it to cover.

Oops...



So much as I think like O'Connor on whitetails, on larger animals bone and shot presentation are the wildcards and IMO can take a lot out of a light bullet. And of course with dangerous game there's no shame is being prepared with some extra lead.





Through all these debates one thing keeps coming back to me. A friend who liked to golf used to say "when chipping or putting always try to get it at least as far as the cup. If you fall short there is ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE you will sink it...."



I believe that logic to be irrefutable and is why I prefer lots of penetration to get as least through the vitals from nearly any angle, regardless of caliber.

.(BTW, Keith stated the .25-06 was inadequate for pronghorn. )

Whoever says that is a moron.

Madgoat-I have to disagree on "No one hunts to eat anymore" as I do and no many other local people that do the same.If I had a 6X6 and a Spike standing next to each other,I would take the Spike for eating purposes.It cost only the price of a local tag and alittle gas to eat Elk if you have a good year compared to the outragous price they want for that pumped up meat they call Beef.And I agree that there are those that do just as you say and it's pittiful at best.

Have a good one.Jayco.

I will state a little experiance I have with the 70 Whitetails I have shot in the last 15 years. I will give you some examples of small bore preformance on deer sized game. My 6mm 284 shoots a 100 gr Partition at 3500 fps and it will put a deer down faster than a 25/06, 270, 308, 30/06 anywhere from 10 yards to 500 yards I have proved it many times cause speed kills so will a 257 weatherby with a 100 gr. Now since they preform better than the ones I stated that means I should be able to take my little 100 gr bullet and shoot an elk 300 yards right? Not, why cause the bullet hole going in is going to be the size of a pencil and the bullet is not going to exit and good luck finding a blood trail. Now this is where the 7mm mag and larger come into play they have the bullet weight and the energy to break through an elks shoulder and put him down. Does a 270 and 30/60 have the energy sure they do out to about 300 yards and that is pushing it. A 7mm and 300 win mag on up to the really big boys have more energy at 300 yards then a 270 or 30/06 have comming out of the muzzle. So it makes sense to match the gun with the animal. As for the perfact shot and if you dont take a perfact shot you are not a true hunter but let me guess you have never taking a running shot on any animal and if you did I bet you always hit them in the heart I also bet you always shoot Birds with your shot gun broadside never flying away from you either

I wonder why it is that this guy expects me to give him any credit when he had no hesitation in making offensive remarks concerning my opinion on this issue. He also denigrates Ray and sneers at a lot of other hunters whom he doesn't know. I was born in Grizzly country, have spent my entire life there and made my living for many years dealing with these animals.

Madgoat's comments are crap, he knows as much about Grizzlies, real-life Elk hunting and honestly answering a question as Bill Clinton knew about integrity. His comments are evasive and are very obviously not based on any real hands-on experience. Does this poser actually expect anyone to believe that ANYBODY with a gun will stand there and allow a bear to attack them because they are afraid of the USFS or USFWS....I used to WORK for Canadian versions of these agencies and his comments are fuckin' unreal!

I am beginning to think that he may be one of those granola crunchers-we call them "budgies"-that he talks about. His statement about living with bears simply doesn't ring true and his comparison of bear behaviour in B.C. and Wyoming is just bullshit; the scientific literature and my personal experience indicate exactly the opposite.

I can certainly see why some posters refer to him as 'Goatchoker", however, I am not interested in these "alternative lifestyle" guys or in whhat they may do with Elk assholes. I have yet to hear anyone here advocate shooting any animal in the asshole, but, rear end shots are sometimes necessary to avoid an animal escaping with a wound and anybody who actually has hunted for a while knows that.

Also, comparing deer of any species to Elk is not really pertinent, I have SEEN cow Elk travel more than a half mile with one lung completely ruptured by a Nosler Pt. from a .375H&H. I have also shot bull Elk, in the chest, twice, with a .338-250 Nosler and watched them saunter away for 50 yds., before calmly lying down, head up, as if they were resting. Elk are extremely tough, tenacious and gutsy animals and hunting them with marginal calibers is not sportsmanship-unless you will discipline yourself in terms of shots taken.

Actually DJ,you'd be suprised with what madgoatchoker does with an elks asshole, eating it is only half the fun and enjoyment for him.



Hell if it wasn't for ass shots,neither madgoatchoker or 43deer would ever get laid. Talk about a couple of fuckin' hypocrites.



Shooting an elk length wise doesn't ruin any meat. If you'd learn a little about butchering goatchoker. You'd know that you can process an elk with no waste,without ever gutting the animal out. Considering that the gutting process is when most meat is tainted or contaminated.



One lunging an elk and then having the bastard run a couple miles. Will ruin meat far easier then a length wise shot.



As for having the usfws on you for shooting a bear,it seldom happens anymore. Three years ago wyoming had close to 30 plus bears killed. Nearly 20 of them in self defense,not one of them resulted in legal action against the person doing the shooting. If it comes down to having a bear maul you or shooting and having a court hearing,I'll gladly shoot the fucker.