quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
If that is the case why are there so many native americans living in poverty?

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Andy#3:
In the early 80's, as a 1st year plumber's apprentice, we plumbed about 12-15 new/free Indian houses, on the Mescalero apache reservation, in New Mexico. Part of the contract was that 10% of the payment was held back, for 1 year, at which time we would go back and do a "punch list" of anything that needed work (dripping faucets, slow drains, etc), and then get paid the remainder of money owed.

One of the homes, that had a female artist living in it, was beautiful. Decorated with all kinds of her artwork. Very neat and very clean, and a pleasant person to talk to.

All the others were a different story. EVERY house had the copper tubing torn out, and sold for scrap I assume, along with the water heater. The bathtub was sitting in the yard, used as a horse trough. One bedroom had the window knocked out, and pine limbs were hung from the walls......used for a chicken coop! Again, this was the case with ALL the other houses.

One of the homes appeared to be used as a meeting lodge. The vaulted ceiling, in the living room, had about a 3' diameter hole cut in it, along with the roof, open to the sky....and an elevated fire pit, sitting on the floor, below it.....teepee style, the ceiling black from smoke. The walls were covered in murals, and were very creepy. Human sacrifices, satan, other images of hell, all the way around what was the living room.

But it was the smell I'll never forget, other than the artist's home, all the rest of the houses smelled the same, rotten cooking grease and body odor. The stench was overwhelming....and this coming from a plumber!

And...quite the opposite of the artist lady, NONE of other indians would talk to us, or make eye contact. Most sat on the floor, staring at their feet. Others would leave the house, and go walk into the woods.

This event left quite the impression on me....I remember it very clearly, even though it was over 35 years ago!

It was the first time I worked on a reservation, and did so several more times in my career, over the next 35+ years. I have more examples of similar reservation behavior....Navajo, Hopi, and Nez Perce here in Idaho....all first hand. Much of what I learned was from Indians that worked on my crews. A couple became very good friends of mine. That's were I really got the "inside" story, on how things worked (or don't work) on the res, and the greed and corruption of the tribal elders. Most of these reservations were responsible for keeping their own people poor, withholding payments due to them, from the US government.

So....all you Indian experts feel free to explain this to the rest of us. How the white man is responsible for this behavior. How the white man is to blame for this poverty, and the "concentration camp" environment. I think most people form their opinions from what they see on TV, or the bleeding heart types that cry for more money, using scenes like I described, above, to make their point.

This is my last post on this subject, as I doubt I'll change anyone's preconceived opinions with my first hand experiences. It will be interesting to read the responses though....

Andy#3

That has NOT been my experience over the last 20 years. I have been inside a whole bunch of Indian homes and never seen anything like you describe. I have shared many meals and holidays with my friends on the reservation and have been treated with respect by the vast majority of Indians I have encountered. Have I met Indians who clearly do not like whites? You betcha.....but they were few and far between. The single biggest change I have noticed in my time spent there is the increased standard of living. I am sure my first hand experience over many months if not years has no bearing because it does not fit your world view.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Andy#3:
In the early 80's, as a 1st year plumber's apprentice, we plumbed about 12-15 new/free Indian houses, on the Mescalero apache reservation, in New Mexico. Part of the contract was that 10% of the payment was held back, for 1 year, at which time we would go back and do a "punch list" of anything that needed work (dripping faucets, slow drains, etc), and then get paid the remainder of money owed.

One of the homes, that had a female artist living in it, was beautiful. Decorated with all kinds of her artwork. Very neat and very clean, and a pleasant person to talk to.

All the others were a different story. EVERY house had the copper tubing torn out, and sold for scrap I assume, along with the water heater. The bathtub was sitting in the yard, used as a horse trough. One bedroom had the window knocked out, and pine limbs were hung from the walls......used for a chicken coop! Again, this was the case with ALL the other houses.

One of the homes appeared to be used as a meeting lodge. The vaulted ceiling, in the living room, had about a 3' diameter hole cut in it, along with the roof, open to the sky....and an elevated fire pit, sitting on the floor, below it.....teepee style, the ceiling black from smoke. The walls were covered in murals, and were very creepy. Human sacrifices, satan, other images of hell, all the way around what was the living room.

But it was the smell I'll never forget, other than the artist's home, all the rest of the houses smelled the same, rotten cooking grease and body odor. The stench was overwhelming....and this coming from a plumber!

And...quite the opposite of the artist lady, NONE of other indians would talk to us, or make eye contact. Most sat on the floor, staring at their feet. Others would leave the house, and go walk into the woods.

This event left quite the impression on me....I remember it very clearly, even though it was over 35 years ago!

It was the first time I worked on a reservation, and did so several more times in my career, over the next 35+ years. I have more examples of similar reservation behavior....Navajo, Hopi, and Nez Perce here in Idaho....all first hand. Much of what I learned was from Indians that worked on my crews. A couple became very good friends of mine. That's were I really got the "inside" story, on how things worked (or don't work) on the res, and the greed and corruption of the tribal elders. Most of these reservations were responsible for keeping their own people poor, withholding payments due to them, from the US government.

So....all you Indian experts feel free to explain this to the rest of us. How the white man is responsible for this behavior. How the white man is to blame for this poverty, and the "concentration camp" environment. I think most people form their opinions from what they see on TV, or the bleeding heart types that cry for more money, using scenes like I described, above, to make their point.

This is my last post on this subject, as I doubt I'll change anyone's preconceived opinions with my first hand experiences. It will be interesting to read the responses though....

Andy#3

That has NOT been my experience over the last 20 years. I have been inside a whole bunch of Indian homes and never seen anything like you describe. I have shared many meals and holidays with my friends on the reservation and have been treated with respect by the vast majority of Indians I have encountered. Have I met Indians who clearly do not like whites? You betcha.....but they were few and far between. The single biggest change I have noticed in my time spent there is the increased standard of living. I am sure my first hand experience over many months if not years has no bearing because it does not fit your world view.

I grew up on the Wind River Reservation in Riverton Wyoming.


What you talk about is not uncommon, but it is far from rare. Some survive and go on to live their lives some are stuck in the stone age.


Eskimos in Alaska and Canada are the same. Some figure it out, some continue to be cave men.


I visited aboriginal villages in Australia. I didn't see much difference between that and back home in Wyoming reservation.


Served with quite a few natives from all over the West. If they had it figured out by the time they got to be an E3 or E4 they went on to do well. If they hit the booze, then they usually got kicked out.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Andy#3:
In the early 80's, as a 1st year plumber's apprentice, we plumbed about 12-15 new/free Indian houses, on the Mescalero apache reservation, in New Mexico. Part of the contract was that 10% of the payment was held back, for 1 year, at which time we would go back and do a "punch list" of anything that needed work (dripping faucets, slow drains, etc), and then get paid the remainder of money owed.

One of the homes, that had a female artist living in it, was beautiful. Decorated with all kinds of her artwork. Very neat and very clean, and a pleasant person to talk to.

All the others were a different story. EVERY house had the copper tubing torn out, and sold for scrap I assume, along with the water heater. The bathtub was sitting in the yard, used as a horse trough. One bedroom had the window knocked out, and pine limbs were hung from the walls......used for a chicken coop! Again, this was the case with ALL the other houses.

One of the homes appeared to be used as a meeting lodge. The vaulted ceiling, in the living room, had about a 3' diameter hole cut in it, along with the roof, open to the sky....and an elevated fire pit, sitting on the floor, below it.....teepee style, the ceiling black from smoke. The walls were covered in murals, and were very creepy. Human sacrifices, satan, other images of hell, all the way around what was the living room.

But it was the smell I'll never forget, other than the artist's home, all the rest of the houses smelled the same, rotten cooking grease and body odor. The stench was overwhelming....and this coming from a plumber!

And...quite the opposite of the artist lady, NONE of other indians would talk to us, or make eye contact. Most sat on the floor, staring at their feet. Others would leave the house, and go walk into the woods.

This event left quite the impression on me....I remember it very clearly, even though it was over 35 years ago!

It was the first time I worked on a reservation, and did so several more times in my career, over the next 35+ years. I have more examples of similar reservation behavior....Navajo, Hopi, and Nez Perce here in Idaho....all first hand. Much of what I learned was from Indians that worked on my crews. A couple became very good friends of mine. That's were I really got the "inside" story, on how things worked (or don't work) on the res, and the greed and corruption of the tribal elders. Most of these reservations were responsible for keeping their own people poor, withholding payments due to them, from the US government.

So....all you Indian experts feel free to explain this to the rest of us. How the white man is responsible for this behavior. How the white man is to blame for this poverty, and the "concentration camp" environment. I think most people form their opinions from what they see on TV, or the bleeding heart types that cry for more money, using scenes like I described, above, to make their point.

This is my last post on this subject, as I doubt I'll change anyone's preconceived opinions with my first hand experiences. It will be interesting to read the responses though....

Andy#3

That has NOT been my experience over the last 20 years. I have been inside a whole bunch of Indian homes and never seen anything like you describe. I have shared many meals and holidays with my friends on the reservation and have been treated with respect by the vast majority of Indians I have encountered. Have I met Indians who clearly do not like whites? You betcha.....but they were few and far between. The single biggest change I have noticed in my time spent there is the increased standard of living. I am sure my first hand experience over many months if not years has no bearing because it does not fit your world view.

I grew up on the Wind River Reservation in Riverton Wyoming.


What you talk about is not uncommon, but it is far from rare. Some survive and go on to live their lives some are stuck in the stone age.


Eskimos in Alaska and Canada are the same. Some figure it out, some continue to be cave men.


I visited aboriginal villages in Australia. I didn't see much difference between that and back home in Wyoming reservation.


Served with quite a few natives from all over the West. If they had it figured out by the time they got to be an E3 or E4 they went on to do well. If they hit the booze, then they usually got kicked out.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
Much of what has been written here is opinion, including much of what I wrote.
But why should it matter. The treaties were written long ago when things were different. Those treaties were contracts written in the good name of the U. S. Government. They should continue to be honored.

quote:

But some here do not like the treaties, it does not fit within their narrow, selfish opinions, and should be changed to suit them.



Sounds silly, I know, but no difference to what some want to change to suit themselves.

quote:

If the document is harming both parties

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Agreed. What you describe has been done with eminent domain actions, and I suspect national park formations.
Our government has made and canceled treaties through our history. Most recently with Iran and Russia.
Thanks for allowing me to raise the question. I have no animus with the tribal groups. I do have pity even though their plight today is largely self imposed.

quote:

“ Indian” should be recognized as individual with either 50% or more true blood.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
I guess the Indians should have fought harder if they had wished to impose their definition of ownership.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
...We are raising “ Indian privileged class” , ruining consequent generations

quote:

Originally posted by Alec Torres:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
...We are raising “ Indian privileged class” , ruining consequent generations

Have you been to Pine Ridge? They don't look too privileged to me.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
Much of their land was stolen from them and their ancestors were murdered for resisting the stealing of their lands.

I am happy for this man that he had the opportunity to hunt and take a nice trophy.