Finally, a WSM caliber built to take on the thick-skinned and heavy-shouldered big game animals found from Alaska to Africa. The new 325 WSM is the latest addition to the WSM family. Combining the velocity of the 300 Win. Mag. with the knockdown power of the 338 Win. Mag., the 325 WSM offers all the power needed to take on big game animals. The 325 is loaded with 180, 200 or 220 grain bullets, further expanding the capabilities and usefulness of this great caliber. Those who hunt elk, moose, caribou, bear and even the robust animals of Africa will appreciate having the powerful knockdown energy and velocity of a large magnum cartridge, without the weight and bulk of standard magnum calibers. As with all WSM calibers, the 325 is built on a short-action configuration, making the rifle lighter weight, easier to carry and with a shorter bolt throw for faster follow-up shots. And don’t forget the exceptional accuracy you’ll find with the 325. After all is said and done, the 325 WSM might just be the perfect all-around caliber for big game animals.



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The above title and copy from Winchesters site makes the point that this 325 WSM will fill the niche enjoyed by cartridges like the 338 WM.

What say you?

"Finally, a WSM caliber built to take on the thick-skinned and heavy-shouldered big game animals found from Alaska to Africa."

Why not a 30-06, 8x57, 35 Whelen or 9.3x62?

"...the 325 WSM offers all the power needed to take on big game animals."

So do the 30-06, 8x57, 35 Whelen and 9.3x62.

"The 325 is loaded with 180, 200 or 220 grain bullets, further expanding the capabilities and usefulness of this great caliber."

So are the 30-06 and 8x57.

"Those who hunt elk, moose, caribou, bear and even the robust animals of Africa will appreciate having the powerful knockdown energy and velocity of a large magnum cartridge, without the weight and bulk of standard magnum calibers."

The 30-06, 8x57 35 Whelen and 9.3x62 do that as well, and have been doing it for nearly a century, plus I get five shots in the magazine and zero feeding issues.

"...the 325 is built on a short-action configuration, making the rifle lighter weight, easier to carry and with a shorter bolt throw for faster follow-up shots."

So do the 308, 358, and 9.3x57.

"And don’t forget the exceptional accuracy you’ll find with the 325."

More a function of the rifle than the cartridge.

"After all is said and done, the 325 WSM might just be the perfect all-around caliber for big game animals."

Just like the 30-06, 8x57, 35 Whelen and 9.3x62.

Am I missing something?


Okie John

quote:

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Originally posted by okie john:
"After all is said and done, the 325 WSM might just be the perfect all-around caliber for big game animals."

Just like the 30-06, 8x57, 35 Whelen and 9.3x62.
Am I missing something?
Okie John

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To argue the North American all around application against your traditional examples one might say the 8mm -57, .358 and 9.3-62 just don't have the trajectory to sell customers that they will cut it at long range. The 30-06 may do it all but it's not perceived as a magnum by many.

quote:

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this 325 WSM will fill the niche enjoyed by cartridges like the 338 WM.

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Fill as in replace? Probably not, a huge installed base of 338's out there.
Make it's own place? Probably so.

One of the best things that will happen if the 325 WSM fairs well is that there will be an improvement in the variety and quality of 8mm bullets available....

That would be a good thing and likely to usher in the return of the 8mmRemMag, which I would favor over the 325WSM if I felt I needed an 8mm.

In talking BIG game, move the comparison between the 325WSM and 338WinMag to 250 grain and 250+ grain bullets and there is suddenly no comparison.

I just wish CZ would come out with the 338 Lapua in their 550 Safari Magnum series and I wouldn't bother with either one (got a 270, a 308, a 30-06 two 338WinMags, a 375HH, a 416 Rigby, and a 458 Lott.) Using sound cartridge spacing practices, I see little use for a 325WSM in my line up --- others, especially the recoil sensitive folks, may find it to be just the right thing.

The only thing hunters agree on 100%, is to disagree.

EKM

Well, Woodleigh and Hawk have bullets of 250 grain weight in .323, so those would certainly compare in S.D. with the .338 WM. Now, I have no idea how fast the .325 WSM could push those heavyweights. But it pushes the lighter weight right about the same as the .338.

Savege99 ----- You make good points about the 325 WSM. However my first point is I have loaded my .300 Winny to 3100 fps with a 180 grain bullet for years, with absolutely no pressure signs and the load is a one holer with my rifle. My second point is I also shoot a .340 Wby, .338 Lapua, that make the 325 look like a choir boy, then a .358 STA that makes them all pale by comparison. ----- It is all in he eye of the beholder as to the best all around chambering, and what the shooter wants in the end. Good shooting.

My boring old 1958 .338 Win. Mag. will do all that the .325 WSM will do, plus a whole lot more, especially since I can go with 250 gr. premium bullets at 2700 fps. or slightly better, and this load will do things that no .325 WSM load will ever be able to pull off. That big, heavy 250 gr. .338 pill separates the pigs from the chickens -- and the .338s from the 8s -- as does no other loading. Plus, the .375 H&H-diameter case feeds better than the WSM case feeds, plus I can hold four down in the magazine and one in the chamber of my rifle.

What always amuses me is that every time some new cartridge comes out, it's always portrayed as offering a new level of performance and accuracy that's never been seen before. In this case, a better counterpart cartridge has preceeded by a mere 47 years...........

AD

Ad, 1958 ? isn't that when the 338 was introduced? Time for a new gun. Every time companies come out with a new cartridge that is close to an already well established one , it's a failure in sales -for example 280/270, 8mm mag/338 mag.In 338 we already have 338 win, 340 Wthrby,and now 338 Lapua.We're going to run out of elk and moose !!

Much ado bout' nuttin...

Savage, you are a nice guy, you have (usually) excellent taste in huntin' irons and I like you and would enjoy knowing you in person, BUT, in this particular comparison, you have your brain where your bowels should be. There is no friggin' way, other than "Slick Willy" style bafflegab, that the figures you provide, regardless of their provenance, are an accurate comparison of the cartridges in question; the velocities are not correct and the BCs of the bullets are not identical.

Nobody who knows his asshole from his elbow shoots lightweight .338 bullets on heavy game, even Nosler PTs. The .325WSM may be o.k. for a lot of hunting, but, it will not come close to my .338s with my favourite 250gr. Nosler Gold Moly Free, especially on Grizzly, Moose and trophy Elk, the toughest to knock down withh one shot of the three. If, you want one, good on ya, it's mostly about fun anyway, but, don't try to convince we .338 users that it is equal to the best all-around North American big game cartridge, 'cause it ain't!

I think that you are just looking for an excuse to tell your better half that you "need" another one of those cute little Kimbers!

Sounds like the ballistics of another "loser" the 8mm Rem Mag. Not thanks, I'll stick with the 300 Weatherby or the 338 Win Mag and if I really want punishment, I'll take the 340 Weatherby WITHOUT the hassle of fat, hard to feed cartridges. jorge

I see it's the same old shell game being played on the public; compare two cartridges of different caliber using the same bullet weight (when the larger diameter round will always push the bullet faster when loaded to the same pressure), or claim a deficit of retained 'energy', in this case 300ft.-lbs., is not worth mentioning.

Anything a WSM does, it does at higher pressures than the longer rounds, so there is nothing magical about them.

They must think we're all suckers.

George

Mete, I meant that the cartridge was born in 1958. My rifle is more recent than that!

AD

I would have been more impressed if they made it a .330 (.333 or .338 or .34)wsm. I just don't see the point in an 8mm? I'm not a metric snob or anything, I love the 7mm, I just don't get it?

Gentlemen, it's not an either/or proposition. No one is going to take away your 338's or 340's and force you to shoot a 325. Winchester picked the 325 because they knew they could not match the 338 Mag in the short case and so they did a smart thing and designed a round that splits the difference between the 300 and 338's magnums. No big deal. If you don't have either one it will make a dandy Elk, Moose and African plains game round. Me, I'm glad to see any new caliber introduced and hopefully people will flock to them and I can pick up a used left handed 338 mag alot cheaper!

I should have made it clear that my post is a direct copy from the Winchester web site.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/features/detail.asp?id=76

It's fair game to rip the cartridge. After all we can only carry one gun at a time.

I was just looking for a hot stove topic to kick around. As for myself I prefer the WSM's but I have so many satisfactory guns now that I don't think I will get a 325 WSM just now.

I did note that the Winchester promo danced all around the dangerous game moniker. They did come close with the terms African game, thick skinned and heavy shouldered! Me thinks that they have a surplus of advertising copy writers who are indeed riding a wave of WSM success.

quote:

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Originally posted by mete:Every time companies come out with a new cartridge that is close to an already well established one , it's a failure in sales -for example 280/270, 8mm mag/338 mag.In 338 we already have 338 win, 340 Wthrby,and now 338 Lapua.

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Not so with the 219 Z/222R, 222R/223, 220S/22-250, 257R/25-06, 7-57/7mm-08, 270W/270WSM etc.

Remington tried this once already, 338 won out. It is to late for good bullets to make up the difference. And I liked the 8MM RM! Marketing tactic to sell more guns? I wish them well, but I doubt it will fly as a trendsetter that replaces anything, not enough niche market to survive on its own.

I could be wrong, since this is JMHO.

I just counted 4 factory loads for the 300 Win mag with 180 gr bullets, in the Guns and Ammo Annual which reach or exceed 3100 fps as advertized. None of them were labeled Winchester though.
In these comparisons it would be nice if the manufacturer would use comparable loads for the evaluation.
As stated earlier, the 325 short mag cartridge can not even begin to compare to the 338 Win. The 338 has the advantage of greater powder capacity as well as a more advantageous expansion ratio. The 8mm Rem Mag is a valid competitor to the 338, but it has much greater internal capacity to offset the lower expansion ratio.
Do not misunderstand me, the 325WSM has all the makings of a great game killer. It should be accurate and physics demands that it will be able to deliver a lethal bullet to deer and elk sized critters.
But it will not deliver a bigger bullet or more energy to the target than a 338 with equivelent loads. Nor will it out perform the 300 Win, 300 Wea, 300 Dakota, or the 8mm Rem Mag.

My opinion is the 325 only really shines if you put it the lighter weight rifle like a kimber montana for example.

That is what the 325 does that the 338 win does not. It fits in a 6 1/4 pound factory rifle for under $1000.

It is the most powerful cartridge that I have seen in a lightweight factory rifle (crf also if that matters to you) for under $1000.

I don't care how they cut it or market it, I just don't see any new cartridge doing a darn thing that the ones that have been available for a long time can't do, and do well.

I'd take an 8 x 57 Mauser any day over a 325 WSM and don't think I would be giving up anything but another 50 yds or point blank range. And not really with my handloads ( a triffle warm, lol).

And if your round has to say magnum, what is wrong with a 300 Mag or a 338 Mag. Personally,I wish the old 33 Winchester would get popular again.

Cheers
seafire

What a Joke give me the 9.3x62 or regular .338 winnie any day of the week !!

The 325 is nothing more than an 8mm, which the gun mfgrs. are trying to breathe life into. Get with it fellas, it ain't gonna work, to much better stuff out there.The 8mm will limp along forever because it has a small following, but forget it to climb to the top of the pile. Gun mfgrs. are always trying to hoodwink the new young shooters.

The advantage of .323 over .308 caliber in any given case is a 5.9% increase in energy and a 2.9% increase in velocity. The WSM case is certainly no exception to the immutable laws of internal ballistics. So, is this enough to make you want a 325 WSM over a 300 WSM?

It MIGHT be to those that have an appreciation for small improvements, but its probably not worth selling a 300 WSM for a 325, especially since the selection of .308 bullets is so good. Don't forget that the .323 bullets show a decrease in sectional density of 9% when compared to equal weight .308s, so you just can't shoot the 8MM bullets as fast as the .308s if you hold SD constant.

Also keep in mind that we are evaluating the 325 WSM as the largest diameter bullet currently available in the WSM case. Many really want a 338 more, but the heavy bullets in 338 with good BCs are very, very long and not a good choice for a short case in a short action. The real sleeper is the 375 WSM which duplicates the 375 H&H and 375 Taylor in a short action.

With that said, there is nothing wrong with the 325 WSM as a hunting round, and it certainly has sufficient power and trajectory for most applications in North America.

Having thrashed Winchester's 8 WSM propaganda, I must say that I do see two good things coming from it. The first is a continuing upward trend in WSM bore diameters. If they can make it to 35, they'll have my interest. The second is a better 8mm bullet selection. If this trend continues, I will definitely buy myself a new rifle. But it will be a $200 Mauser in 8x57, not an 8 WSM.

Okie John

RMILLER
You hit the nail on the head I think its the package.... rifle and cartridge we should be lookin at not just the cartridge.
Otherwise its kinda a moot point! (just had to get that in there )
As for the rest of the debate... well gents why do I drive a Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 HEMI (325wsm) instead of a Ford Model T (8x57), because I can!

Never select a cartridge younger than you are. It's likely to become totally obsolete.

As for light weight, I'll take my 300 Weatherby Ultralightweight with a 26" barrel, weighing 6 3/4 pounds. Shoots its 180 grain bullets above 3200 fps.

It's stillborn and will die.

I can see the allure of the 300 wsm, nice compact rifle and 165's @ 3100-3200. For the smaller species, I'd take that any day over the 8mm. For the bigger species, I'd take a 338, 358 or 375 over the 8mm, any day, rather, every day.

Lets face it, most of the rifles sold in the US are "deer rifles", and deer rifles are 30 cal or smaller. The "elk, moose and big bear" rifles start at 338. The 8mm is the bastard step child that nobody wants, though there will undoubtedly be some hard core freeks (no offense meant) that will sing the praises of the round, and howl in anquish when the factory drops the guns, then a few years later, drops loaded ammo.

S99, It was clear to me that you were cutting and pasting from Wincester marketing.....some folks would rather jump up and down about anything new than read through an entire post....I think the entire industry should stop introducing anything new....how dare they insult us with these designs...everybody knows Hilly baby is going shut down the idustry starting in 08...I cant beleive that Big Green and Olin arent spending money on staffing up legal teams instead of doing R&D....

I'll agree with Westcoaster that RMiller hit the nail on the head. The wsm rifles are handier than the larger magnums...go pick up one of the new synthetic wsm 325 then pick up a new 338. Which one would you want carry in the mountains etc.? I'll take the shorter lighter one...thanks. At my age every pound helps.

the 325 doesn't beat out the old 338 but comes close enough that no elk, moose etc. would ever know the difference.

I'm sort of old school and I love my pre 64 rifles and wouldn't trade one in for a wsm. But..I like my 300wsm also. It's a nice handy rifle for south Texas hunting,..good jeep rifle and a nice package to do a mule deer or elk hunt occasionally. I think the 325 is going to be a winner with the elk hunters.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sendero:
I'll agree with Westcoaster that RMiller hit the nail on the head. The wsm rifles are handier than the larger magnums...go pick up one of the new synthetic wsm 325 then pick up a new 338. Which one would you want carry in the mountains etc.? I'll take the shorter lighter one...thanks. At my age every pound helps.

the 325 doesn't beat out the old 338 but comes close enough that no elk, moose etc. would ever know the difference.

I'm sort of old school and I love my pre 64 rifles and wouldn't trade one in for a wsm. But..I like my 300wsm also. It's a nice handy rifle for south Texas hunting,..good jeep rifle and a nice package to do a mule deer or elk hunt occasionally. I think the 325 is going to be a winner with the elk hunters.

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But in Alaska, the big bears roam in moose country, so if I had to decide between the two, the 8mm would stay home.

All my rifles stay home for moose. I like to bowhunt for moose.

While it is true for the most part that it will not do what a plethora of already existing cartridges will do, the same can be said about a lot of already existing cartridges vs one another.

Whether it will do well or die off only time will tell. Personally I like 8mm's and am VERY glad to see more bullets coming out in that caliber, that will go a long way toward helping out the 325. IMHO the 8mm basically offers the largest slug that will still shoot flat within reasonable recoil levels, that is a lot of pluses in one package and does in fact make for a nice Elk package. But that it doesnt offer much real world advantage over a 30 cal is quite true. Nice to have options though.

quote:

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Originally posted by RMiller:
All my rifles stay home for moose. I like to bowhunt for moose.

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A friend of mine does that too, but he packs a .454 Casull just in case.

Do you remember the guy from Valcez who was bear hunting with his bow a few years back? His partner had a Winchester Defender loaded with slugs, but when he saw a big grizzly chewing in the guys head, he ran.

The guy managed to pull his .44 Magnum revolver out of the holster, and shot the bear on the neck one time. The bullet blew an artery on the bear's neck, and the bear died on top of him. He patched his head the best way he could, and walked quite a few miles for help. Almost bled to death.

This happened in the Copper Valley, so it was a big bear that got him.

Another caliber to separate people from their money.

Why didn't they use .338 bullets? A quick check in Midway shows 25 bullets available in .323, and 54 in .338. Northfork doesn't make .323s; I'll bet other niche suppliers don't either.

A .338 short mag might have some value to me. An unpopular size similar to a .338 does not. (Updated-- I just read what Sabot had to say re: the high SD .338 bullets and their length. The choice of the lower SD 8mm bullets now makes more sense to me, but I still think it's an "answer in search of a question".)

And besides, there already _is_ a perfect all around caliber for big game: the .375 H&H Magnum. (No flame war necessary; I'm saying that tongue-in-cheek.)

(Update: If a .375 WSM could get H&H ballistics in a short, light gun-- I would indeed be interested in that. Needs to be available in LH though.)

Pertinax
Well the WSM family of cartridges has been wildcatted from small to big bore already. I have looked at the .375 version and its pretty tempting. There are also .416 and .458 versions!
Check out Shortmags.org for lotsa info on em.
John Noveske In ORE is shooting a .458 version he has a site and looks like a decent Gunsmith as well. WWW.jnrifleworks.com

Ray ,

I do remember that story. Those guys used to be best pals.

I carry a 454 also.

Gentlemen

This is great. 325WSM means more bullets for 8X68S, 8X64 brenneke and 8X57IS

8,5mm is nice but I rather take a 9,3

Cheers
/ JOHAN

I STILL want a lefty M70 in 338 WSM!!! There, that about covers it for me!!

Huntr