Add this to the number of Elk herds in Montana (Wyoming and Idaho also) beginning to be destroyed by the recently re-introduced Wolves! The herd that is now being decimated is the Sun River herd west of Augusta (Bob Marshal Wilderness, Great Bear Wilderness and the Scapegoat Wilderness areas are nearby!).
I refer you to an unattributed article in todays local paper (Dillon, Montana - Dillonite Daily June 19th 2,003). The article in part relays that recent aerial surveys in one area west of Augusta, Montana counted 2,511 Elk. Last years count was 2,638! Whats the fuss you say only 127 fewer Elk in one area? Well the fuss is the Elk herd should have increased by at least 300 to 500 animals! And this years count (according to the Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks Department) included ONLY 18 Elk calves per 100 cow Elk! Last year the count of calves per 100 cow Elk was 30! Nearly double this years census number! It was a very mild winter in this area and the difference might just be the new pack of "at least a dozen Wolves" there in the Sun River area!
Hmmmm... a pattern is developing here in Montana Wolves increasing by 30% a year and Elk herds in all areas where Wolves are being re-introduced are diminishing! Diminishing at a new calf rate that will obliterate ALL Elk in areas Wolves inhabit!
Yeah we got a problem Houston but no one is politically incorrect enough to challenge the Sierra Club and their puppets - the United States Department of the Interior, Forest Service, United States Fish and Wildlife Service, Idaho Fish and Game Department, Wyoming Fish and Game Department and of course the cowardly cock bites at the rocky mountain elk foundation!
Yeah the money shufflers at the rmef will take your money and say they are doing whats best for the Elk but they will not say one word against Wolves or the Sierra Club and their fascist tactics! My complaints to the rmef have fallen on deaf and politically correct ears via my phone and in person! I have long since quit supporting the rmef and now advocate all memebers quit sending dues, demanding refunds of dues and tell them why! The Elk in the west WILL be destroyed and in unhuntable (Sport Hunting that is!) numbers in 12 to 15 years. This fact is not debatable it is proven now, again!
I have had to walk away from my local sportsman association here in SW Montana due to their lack of interest and foresight in this matter but I feel I can do plenty by myself by persistent infusion of my strong views in this matter to my elected representatives and to the various agencies involved in this pending disaster!
In my area of Montana there are very popular bumperstickers that state "Save 100 Elk - Shoot A Wolf! I could not agree more!
Its true my first love is Hunting Mule Deer as far as Big Game goes but I have also spent countless days afield Hunting Elk from early September to the first day of December here in the Rocky Mountains. It is now very probable I will live to see the end of this wonderful sport. The very sad part is all the hard work some people have done in the past 5 decades to try and increase our Elk herds and increase Hunting seasons and access!
One of the liberal papers here in Montana last summer published an artcile where in they acknowledged the tourists in Yellowstone Park are starting to complain about the lack of Elk there. The young Elk there are virtualy being wiped out by the Wolves! The census counts there show 3 - 4 calves per 100 cows! It takes 33 to 34 calves per 100 cows just to maintain a herd at its present level!
It will be a tough pill to swallow the loss of Elk Hunting not just aesthetically but in the loss of revenue to Montana. What a shame.
Say goodbye to Montana Elk!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I quit them years ago because of other internal problems.

AMEN!!!

I couldn`t agree with you more! The elk in Idaho are in trouble too. These people think the west is just one BIG cookie! Don

As I have heard it said here on AR before...

Sometimes hunters justified hunting by say that natural predators had been eliminated and hunting was a viable tool to control game populations, well guess what! We hunters have been one-upped because of the re-introduction of wolves and now "THEY" DON'T NEED ANY STINKING HUNTERS TO CONTROL THE GAME POPULATIONS!!

(edited to add) So guess we can say goodby to hunting as we KNEW it.

[ 06-19-2003, 23:02: Message edited by: Elkslayer ]

I joined the Rocky Mtn. Elk Foundation in 1988. I dropped out two years ago, over this very same issue.... plus, they had printed in "Bugle", a long article by some new age, crystal gazing, elitist "liberal" which was anti-guns, anti-Second Amendment, and anti-NRA. When I sent a letter of complaint to the editor of "Bugle," the a.h. didn't even bother to respond... or print my letter in "Bugle."

I dropped out of the Sierra Club, many years ago, when they were taken over by the Marxist Socialists inspired "greenies," who have taken over so many of the "conservation" organizations.

Yep, the wolves in Idaho, are hammering the elk, here, too. And the idea that they'll be "de-listed," is a macabre joke... not only on us hunters, but on the elk!

Anyone interested in this subject, go to this site, for a viewpoint somewhat opposed to the "greenies," at the Sierra Club.

http://www.usa4id.com/index.html

L.W.

I am politically incorrect.

It is my duty to create a vacuum!

VarmitGuy,

How big is this wolf pack that was introduced???
Has the current hunting pressure had anything to do with the herd...Is there any poaching going on??? Are there any sheep herding in the area and I know predators will go after easy pickings...Here is Pa. coytes are decimating small sheep herds with there lambs..One friend I know lost 44 lambs to coyotes..

Mike

Freedom is not Free

Retreever: I am not sure about the size of the pack that was introduced in that area or if one was introduced or migrated in! Those bits of information by our "public agencies" involved are exceptionally well kept secrets. No such specific information published or broadcast in advance have I ever seen! The article says at least 12 Wolves were counted there this winter!
Leanwolf: I used to be exceptionally gullible in certain regards! I believed the rhetoric espoused by a liberal deceiver and joined the National Wildlife Federation many years ago! It was not long til I got tired of seeing these deceivers names on obstructionist lawsuits that destroyed countless thousands of jobs AND many industries in my home state of Washington. Including many jobs of my uncles, cousins and other relatives! My scathing letter of righteous allegations and my resignation was not refuted or acknowledged by these deceivers either!
Live and learn and be careful who we vote for is my motto. It will be a long time before I get tricked again by a bunch of happy word, bunny hugger liberals like the the rmef and the nwf!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

We have the same dilema here in Wy. The wolves are one more left over from Himler Klintons regime. The F&W sits idley by and lets the packs run rampant. Wyoming counts have been 10 per 100 cows in some areas. The lowest since 1960's. I wrote a letter to RMEF and got it published two issues ago but it met the same lame reply. THey have become to liberal and political and to anti-hunter. I quit years ago but just talked my son into quiting this year. The wolf issue is the beginning of the end for hunting. The elk are being decimated. The wolf shot in Nebraska this last fall was a real full blooded wolf and the F&W said it came from the Minnesota, Wisconsin packs. How do they know this? DNA a guy told me. If this is the case then the wolves released in Wy are not wy Wolves they are Canadian wolves. Wy law is very plain , it is illegal to release any non-native animal into the wild. And the F&W did this. The F&W should be held accountable and taken to court over this issue. No matter what laws are passed the feds will never allow hunting to control the wolves. The environuts will sue and counter sue to stop any kind of hunting. The only countys in Wy that have any
balls are Fremont and Park, their county commisioners have put in place laws to make the wolf and grizzly unwelcome in those counties.

I bent someones' nose over the fact that the RMEF was a bunch of Green Nazis a couple years ago. He and his buddies in Arkansas thought they were just wonderful.
The elk are gone in the north fork of the Flathead river in N.W. Montana, middlefork has a few hanging on, south fork is pretty much wiped out. Going elk hunting in the Bob Marshall? Might as well pour your money down the drain. that's where the herd that winters on Sun River come out of. That's damn few elk in millions of acres to find. I spend time on Benchmark next to the Sun River range. Wolves are targets there.
I think I will check with Radio Shack to see if i can get a reciever to pick up the radio collar signals. These wolves MUST BE REMOVED!
The dumb sonsabitches that don't live around them have thier heads up thier ass, and think they are wonderful harmless little critters. People around here depend on the meat to get through the year. If you want wolves, send us money to buy food.

Same dam problem with Cougars has decimated the Blacktail population here in Oregon. Once again the Anti Hunting people whose point of reference about wild life is Walt Disney.( the Lion King)

They must get extra points for acting Like Goofy!

5 to 7 years ago, some farmer had 60 sheep mutilated by a cougar in one field in one night.
The field actually boarded I-5.

The next morning, the farmer saw the cougar coming back onto his property, and shot the cougar. He called Fish & Wildlife. They came out with the Sheriff's dept and immediately arrested the farmer!

He was released the same day based on local public outcry. However our local town of Yuppies and Liberals ( the first town into Oregon off the I-5 corridor) Ashland, sure had a lot of protestors out picketing the area because the farmer was released, even though the news mentioned that he had had 60 animals mauled, not killed by this cougar. It did not eat anything, just mauled them and left them to die.

The final ridiculous thing I have learned living here for 8 yrs now, is that many of these activists are out to protect these cougars; come up here to "get back to nature' from California.
They buy some land and start a little hobbie farm, and eventually end up raising goats or sheep or something docile. Well they are animal rights activists until the night a cougar or coyote raids their little farm, and kills half or more of their animals. Then these hypocritcal assholes become the most ardent "we have to kill these things" people you ever saw, all overnight.

Once again it is always some group passing laws that don't personally apply to them. However once it does, they start screaming foul all over the place.

I think we ought to round up all the cougars and wolves and coyotes and reintroduce them into the wild: Say San Francisco, Los Angeles, Hollywood( especially) and all of the other major cities where these tree huggers live.

Hey, you guys need wolves as well. Alaska and Canada can't keep all of them.

OK I will stick my foot in my mouth and ask the obvious question. Why don't elk hunters who are in the right place at the right time shoot the wolves? If they happen to have a radio collar attached remove it and destroy it. Then keep quiet about it. Not unlike what we do here with dogs that run wild.

Shoot the wolves? To what end? They reproduce quicker than coyotes! I hunt in wolf country, and they have certainly changed the game. Seems like more mule deer, less cougars, less bears, and less elk. JMO, Dutch.

In Utah we have way too many cougars and almost no deer left.

Hate to be the odd man out here, But Alberta has a healthy population of both Elk and Wolves... Guess its all about what you are used to.

Alberta has a healthy population of elk and wolves but not usually in the same area.The area where I hunt bighorns used to have a healthy elk and moose population but after the wolves moved in several years ago this has changed dramatically.I have seen only one elk and not a single moose in the last three years yet there have been far fewer hunters in the area.You must also consider that in alberta wolves are trapped regularly and can be shot legally in any numbers by alberta residents while hunting.If it were not for this fact we too would have many more wolf problems.

Yep, tis true! Wolves are on the rampage! Virtually no Calf Moose in the Yellowstone this spring. They even attributed a couple dead cougars to the wolves their also! They pushed one Elk heard off the Feed Grounds near Pinedale [documented on this forum]
That same Elk herd wintered over 100 miles from their normal safe haven. Haven't heard how they faired.
Now you won't read this in the papers yet but, six weeks ago a good friend of mine told me a pack of four adult wolves was spotted south of Rock Springs [Little Mountain, Fire Hole area] near Faming Gorge.
Pups should be out of the den by now and hungry, it won't be long and Colorado residents will be having their own Wolves to watch! Heck I wouldn't be surprized if they've already made it!
When was it in 97'? When that rancher near Pinedale got into trouble because he roped one that was killing his sheep! Feds were at his house before he had a chance to call G&F!!

[ 06-20-2003, 18:15: Message edited by: Marsh Mule ]

I would like to thank you guys for the heads up, I was thinking of joining the RMEF this summer. Apparently I need to do a bit more research.

DGK

We've got some idiots on other forums telling us how much we (residents of Idaho and Montana) wanted the wolf reintroduced. These guys actually call themselves hunters to boot!

SSS........the only way to go!

If you see a wolf while out hunting this fall, just shoot the fucking thing. Don't tell anybody about it and nobody will ask.

And if the wolves are really doing this much damage to the elk herds and the deer or whatever and you like hunting, which I'm sure most of you do, then I would kill the first wolf I saw. Funny thing is, I wouldn't stop with just shooting one wolf. Wolves need to be controlled as well.

This is a prime time to use FMJ's or Barnes x bullets,you want a good exit wound,so the cocksuckers that reintroduced these wolves can't trace who shot them.

regardless of how good or bad wolves actually are, there are legal means to to enact change. The last few posts sound vaugely like poching... You wouldn't condone poaching now would you?

thomas:

Shooting the fuckers and leaving them lay, is not poaching. Taking them home and eating them or mounting them, that is poaching.

More like just preditor control.

Who said I would be poaching? Even if I did do something like this (which I won't, b/c I don't live down there obviously) you nor anybody else wouldn't know about it, because I wouldn't say shit. I'd be walking out of the woods with a smile on my face and a dead wolf somewhere in the hills or trail.

If someone came into my home, and took away my food source, and told me I wasn't getting anymore, ever, I believe that would call for whatever means it takes to protect my way of life and existance.

For an apologist for the Green Nazis, this may be poaching.

I suppose it would make more sense for us to hunt the biologists that had the grants to do this, and kill them. No more biologists, no more research, no more stupid fucking ideas. I am an old fashioned biologist who actually lives in the mountains, and observes wildlife daily, and know the habitat requirements. The shit being taught in college is more than harmful. It is catastrophic.

There was a wolf shot near Rock Springs this last winter, one trapped in Utah, one shot near the Utah border near RS by wild life officials, one shot in north east Nebraska, a pack only 35 miles from Thermopolis Wy., a pack sighted feeding on a dead horse west of Worland Wy by a low flying pipeline patrolman. A confirmed pack in the central Big horns this spring. If you shoot one don't got near it just walk away.

In the early 1980s living in Minnesota, my father in law whom I hunted with was a Senior State Trooper. He knew a lot of guys with the State Dept of Natural Resources, who we ran into while out hunting.

We were having contact with deer that had been killed by wolves. I asked several about what the fine was for shooting one.

Their answer to the man included, If you see one, and are going to shoot it, ask me to look in the opposite direction so that I don't have to report seeing anything.

They had no love for the damage and killing the wolves were doing in northern Minnesota.

I don't know about wolves, but if a dog drinks as
little as a teaspoon of antifreeze like goes in the radiator of a car, he will be dead in a few days. Seems cruel but who could say where it came from! However, I knew a man once who kept trying
to catch a coyote in a live trap baited with dog
food and all he ever caught was his own dog. I hope you guys get rid of those wolves because I
still would love to hunt an Elk some day. LOL.BLR7

I'm blushing.

Reason; I just joined the RMEF. Didn't know any of this.

Question: How is the RMAF borad of directors picked?

If the board is elected by the membership, we ought to get sportsmen of like mind on wolves to join RMEF and then we ought to stage a "revolution" at the ballot box, like happned a few years ago with the NRA. That would beat bitching and it might save the Elk and Elk hunting. There are enough of us to pull it off. We don't need all of the board; just a majority.

The organization first needs to get out of Missoula, Montana. It is known as Berkeley north, and has every wacko and fringe Green Nazi group you can imagine. If they protest or make a bitch, the organization rolls over. Many local members are green nazis too, so show up at headquarters meetings, to make things go thier way.

Just thinking out loud here, but say a guy happened to mistake a wolf for a coyote and shot it?
And lets say it was wearing a radio-collar.
Would you?
1. Throw that collar in a river or lake so that no radio signal could be recieved again?
OR
2. Attach the collar to a Big Rig heading back to the east coast?

I know the collars are tracked by GPS and if there's no movement in like 48 hours the Feds get the coordinates and track it down.

[ 06-22-2003, 09:35: Message edited by: Marsh Mule ]

A bullet through the transmitter should shut shut it off.

Gentlemen

this is exactly hte same shit inflammed thing that goes on in Sweden. Hippy, green nazi's from Stockholm and other large city's want the wolf and lynx to spread over the country. Farmers and country folks are prepared to take the law in their own hands.

I really hope that a wolf bites a memeber of the parlament or anyone in their family, maybe kills and eats the doggy. That wil be the day's for the wolfs. Hunting wolf, bear and lynx is a MUST :

/ JOHAN

[ 06-22-2003, 22:10: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

375hnh, yes, please do some research into the RMEF. You will hopefully find out that the RMEF is a habitat organization, not a political organization. If you are interested in habitat, and leaving your kids a PLACE to hunt, the RMEF is your home as one of the most efficient organizations you can join. Over 90% of funds raised actually go on the ground.

If you want to do politics, the RMEF is NOT it. Fundamentally, the RMEF stays away from any political issue it can. As far as wolves are concerned, the RMEF supports proper wolf management by the state. End of story.

For hunting rights, politics, etc, the Sierra club is a much better home. To berate the RMEF on the wolf thing is like complaining that the NRA doesn't to habitat. FWIW, Dutch.

Dutch

Was that a Freudian slip, recommending joining the Sierra Club for political action instead of RMEF? I think they are quite similar in their outlook and I don't believe that RMEF is interested in hunting in the future by anybody.

Their only goal seems to be raising money and buying and then locking away habitat. Of course if your donation is substantial enough you can get permission to hunt on some of the 'Trust Properties'.

I would be interested to know of these so called properties that the RMEF has bought and locked up...

Please give some examples, not just here say.

Ivan

I'd like to address this issue of the RMEF taking property out of hunting production. This is the only issue I am addressing here.

I have been aware of several parcels of land that the RMEF has been instrumental in facilitating the purchase of. Normally because the organization (RMEF) can move quicker than the state or fed gov't can and can get these properties purchased from the owners before the gov't can get around to doing so. Then when the gov't gets it's gears in motion they purchase the property back from the RMEF. Often at $.50 on the dollar (or there abouts).

I am not aware of any property which has been lost to hunting that was previously open to hunters UNLESS if was for biological reasons like allowing the herd to re-build. If you know of one or more please correct me as I am ignorant of them.

An example of property that was purchased by and transffered to state control that I have personally hunted on is the Spence-Moriarity (sic) ranch up the East Fork of the Wind River outside Dubois WY.

There are numerous other ranches here in Wyoming and other western states where they have saved them from the "ranchette" syndrome.

Don't get me wrong here, I firmly believe the RMEF has missed the boat on the wolf issue , but I do believe some who are posting here are mis-informed on some of their facts.

Elkslayer

Hello, all. I'm Steve Wagner, communications director for RMEF. A concerned member alerted me to this discussion, and I thought I'd jump in and provide a few facts.

First, the issue of locking up land. To date, RMEF has permanently protected 1.2 million acres of elk habitat. We've done this through conservation easements, land purchases and land gifts. About 80 percent of this total--now more than 1 million acres--are lands that have been opened for public access, including hunting. Since RMEF launched in 1984, we've averaged more than 50,000 acres per year of land that's been permanently protected for elk and other wildlife, AND permanently opened for hunters. We're proud of that accomplishment, and would love to do more!

A good example is our Watershed project, a three-year project recently completed near Anaconda, Mont. RMEF facilitated the purchase of more than 32,000 acres from a willing timber company. We negotiated a deal that permits the company to harvest merchantable wood, while the deed to the property tranfers through RMEF to the U.S. Forest Service and state wildlife department. This was prime country for developing condos and golf resorts, but now it will remain wild and open for all to hunt.

We have similar projects underway right now in several other states.

Of that remaining 20 percent that isn't open for public access, most is privately held crucial winter range that never was open for public access, and doesn't hold elk during hunting seasons anyway. But protecting that land and habitat means more elk come through winter in good condition, which can translate to more elk on adjacent public lands in the fall.

Working with private landowners is a key to the future of conserving elk habitat. The U.S. Dept. of Agriculture reports that 3.2 million acres of private ranchland in the West has been subdivided since 1982. And that rate of loss is increasing, since the human population in the West is growing faster than the national average.

RMEF doesn't actually own much land. We do own a ranch in New Mexico, but RMEF policy prohibits staff and board members from hunting there.

Now, to wolves. It's important to note that, well before RMEF was even organized, federal laws were in place mandating that wolves be restored to all suitable habitat. For several years, RMEF has had an official position statement on wolves, which states:

"Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation policies have long supported removing wolves from the endangered species list as soon as possible, and transferring responsibility for management to the states. Adequate federal funding should be provided to states to ensure that costs of these new management programs will not be borne by hunters. Wolf management should be science-based, compliant with federal regulations and fully sensitive to local economic and social impacts, ultimately achieving an appropriate balance between wildlife, habitat and people."

In response, RMEF has met twice with cabinet-level officials in the Bush administration, and we've sent our wolf concerns to Bush himself. We feel the process of de-listing wolves and beginning management through hunting is moving along, and we recognize that it's not happening as fast as many people would like. But we strongly believe that the people of Wyoming, for example, know best how to manage Wyoming wildlife.

RMEF is also funding a number of scientific research projects to look in-depth at the real data and biological impacts of wolves on elk. Once wolf management is turned over to the states, this science will help agencies set harvest quotas, as they do with other species. As with elk, we advocate managing all game animals based on good science, not emotion or hearsay.

One last thought. There's a lot more going on in elk country than just predators.

Drought, catastrophic wildfires, undermanaged forests, noxious weeds, added disturbances from "new" forest users such as mountain bikers, and ever-advancing housing developments and shopping malls are also pressuring elk herds--as well as the future of elk hunting. These are the areas where we feel we can make the most difference. RMEF will continue to focus its rather limited resources to do the most good for the most elk, and I hope most of you will support that effort.

If you'd like to know more, take a look at our Web site, www.elkfoundation.org.

Thanks!