http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2004/12/17/news/02latehunt.txt

Please view the "latest" info about the now Wolf devastated, Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd!

The writer of this article made no mention of the fact that the Wolves are doing harm to many other game species that we as sportsmen and the game departments have fought so hard and so long to build up! These include Moose Herds and Bighorn Sheep Herds along with Deer predation!
I read recently that Idaho now has 600 Wolves ALONE!
The feds and the greens at the rmef promised us only 325 Wolves MAXIMUM in Montana, Wyoming AND Idaho!!
Sheesh! So much for "green" promises!
You folks in Colorado, Utah, Arizona and New Mexico better take notice!
Thanks for nothing rmef!!!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I said this would happen several years ago when they first talked about wolf re-introduction,I get no satisfaction in being right.The Northern yellowstone herd is just 1 on many going down in numbers,in 10 years elk hunting will almost be gone in that region,one day we can show our grandchildren woves everywhere and talk about the elk that used to inhabit the area but are gone now.Drop-Shot

quote: We expect to observe less than 8,000 elk during this December's count," Alt said. "Wolf lovers will have a hard time accepting that wolves are having such an impact." Quote:

Common sense! But this guy is right, you will never convince some dumb @ss from iowa, or other eastern state that there is a problem. I just read the recent Field and Stream and they had an online poll, a hunting magazine, page 18, the poll was, "Do you think it's time to start harvesting wolves?" Yes 33% no 67%. I give up. I shake my head and can not figure out what these people think!!!! A 100+ pound carnivore, has to eat 3 to 5 pound a day. Where do the likes of these hunters that are prowolf think the food comes from???? Osmoses?

Oh well it was nice while it lasted. I guess we still have antelope! " The good ol days are behind us"

Wolf lovers!

Sounds like we need do get up there and do some calling, then practice the 3 S's Shoot, Shovle and shut up.

Boy you guys sure know how to get one's blood
pressure sky high Thanks for keeping everyone
informed on this travesty.
Living in Colorado, I am worried...Very worried !!!
Charlie

I was in Lewiston last week at a public comment meeting for the wolf reduction proposal in Idaho. Idaho Fish and Game has proposed a reduction of wolves to 75% lower than current levels in the Clearwater region. They plan on monitoring it for 5 years and the effects on elk population numbers. One interesting theory is that the wolves have displaced an amount of cougars/black bears to the point that the wolves in the area actually consume less elk/deer biomass than the cougars/ black bears they displaced. But, the resulting potential increase in elk/deer biomass may not be seen for 3-5 years as this relationship is quite cyclic. It is obviously a financial burden as well to cougar/black bear guides as they are having a tough time connecting clients with cats/bears in that area. Whatever the data show it will be interesting to see.

IV

In reference to the article in the Bozeman Chronicle that VarmintGuy mentioned, I've known Kurt Alt for years, he is the first biologist that I've heard to publicly tell the truth about the wolf problem. And they are a problem that gets bigger every year. Every year, states like Colorado harvest more elk than existed in our entire nation 100 years ago. Today, elk exist in very healthy and huntable populations in all of the western states and in many of the eastern states. Many of these states were re-populated with elk from Yellowstone. In ten short years and at a cost of millions of our tax and wildlife dollars, our wildlife "managers" in Yellowstone Park and the US Fish and Wildlife Service has done their best to destroy one of the greatest successes in wildlife management in the history of mankind.

Today, the northern Yellowstone elk herd is plummeting. Our hunting opportunities for elk and other big game decreases every year. The late Gardiner cow elk tags have decreased from 2000 to 100 to ??, the moose and bighorn sheep tags in the units adjacent to the northern Yellowstone Park boundary have also also decreased, with some unlimited bighorn sheep tag areas closing altogether.

For the past ten years, Park and USF&W biologists have told us that the decline in the elk population was due to "hard Winters", or loss of winter range due to fires, or to grizzley bears. Well we have had exceptionally MILD winters for the last ten years. We have also had some unusually large forest fires during this time period, but in reality, these fires have actually increased elk forage. The fires killed the trees which allows the sunlight to reach the ground, resulting in more grasses and brush for elk to eat. An elk will starve to death on a diet of pine needles. The grizzley bear population has also increased in recent years, but the same biologists that are trying to blame the decrease in elk on bears also tell us that 90% of the bear's diet is vegetation. Let's see, a loss of over 10,000 elk, an increase of a few hundred grizzley bears, but only 10% of a bear's diet is meat (which is everything from insects and mice up to animals like elk and moose). The math just doesn't work out.

The only other variable is wolves. Ten years ago we had zero. Now we have 3 times more wolves than the goal that the wolf biologists set when they started re-introducing them. Unlilke a bear, a wolf's diet is primarily meat. A pack of wolves are very efficient preditors. They took out the "old and weak" animals a long time ago.

Now I am not 100% against all wolves. I have seen wolves in Yellowstone, in the MacKensey Mountains and in the arctic of northern Canada. They are pretty animals. A bighorn ram is a beautiful animal, and elk, well a big 6 or 7 point bull elk is just majestic. I could live with a few wolves IN Yellowstone Park. Ten years ago, the Park did have more elk than it could sustain. But now the tide has turned. Elk, deer, moose, and bighorn sheep numbers are down. Wolf numbers are up. Its time to quit managing our wildlife according to Walt Disney and start controling the wolves before its too late.

I'd much rather have hunter's be killing the deer, elk, and bighorn. We will even pay to do it. I find it down right stupid that wolf lovers would rather have the elk die from being bitten and mauled to death than by being shot. They are going to die one way or another, might as well make a profit off it, not to mention you can regulate hunters. A wolf is a neat looking animal, but I'd much rather see a field full of elk than a field full of fat wolves. Just keep practicing the 3-S method.

The three "S" rule is a great way for the darn things to never get deslited, as well as bring more support for anti's.

Why not play with these folks at their own game, and file a few lawsuits ourselves?

MG

The answer?

SNIPERS

One thing I haven't heard mentioned in this thread, do some research on the "pro wolf" people and you'll find out that they are actually "anti hunter, anti capitolists, and anti gun". The wolves are just a means to an end. They want hunting shut down, when hunters are no more it takes but one more reason for the people not to own guns. There ultimate goal is confiscation period! That is the only way to truly "control" the population of the US. The blathering moronic soccer mom's and dad's that they have out pounding the pavement for them don't have a clue either they are just being used politically in a neat little "save the earth" scheme. Oh well enought with the soap box, if and when they delist them I'll be standing in line for a tag, until then call your congress rat and tell them to straiten up the so called management (if you could call it that) of public lands or you will be voting against them in November.

quote:

I haven't heard mentioned in this thread, do some research on the "pro wolf" people and you'll find out that they are actually "anti hunter, anti capitolists, and anti gun". The wolves are just a means to an end. They want hunting shut down, when hunters are no more it takes but one more reason for the people not to own guns. There ultimate goal is confiscation period! That is the only way to truly "control" the population of the US. The blathering moronic soccer mom's and dad's that they have out pounding the pavement for them don't have a clue either they are just being used politically in a neat little "save the earth" scheme. Oh well enought with the soap box, if and when they delist them I'll be standing in line for a tag, until then call your congress rat and tell them to straiten up the so called management (if you could call it that) of public lands or you will be voting against them in November.

More assinine bullshit yet again. As a gun owner (somewhat over 30 when last counted years ago), a hunter for ~38 yrs, and a dedicated capitalist, not to mention being "pro wolf", your steriotypes are really just stupid.

Wake up someday.

Brent

I hate to agree with the distinguished gentleman from Iowa but I know a number of people who would consider themselves "Pro-wolf" and are avid hunters. I have been labeled "pro-wolf" by some and "anti-wolf" by others-- I think it depends on what your "goal" for the area is and am more interested in the role wolves play in the ecosystem.

IV

Brent and IdahoVandal: As with any "rule" there are expections to it you are the very small minority trust me, nothing against you personally but if you are an avid hunter.....what of????cause if the current case continues is the west the only thing left to hunt will be WOLVES!

Also what I am mainly opposed to is the "pro wolf" people that think they are the holy grail and can't be touched! If your going to have wolves then fine, but you have to manage there numbers and that means opening hunting seasons and selling tags for them. Also last I had heard they had not released any Wolves in Iowa but I could be wrong.

Ah, yes, the distinguished gentleman scholar from Idaho, perhaps missed the sarcasm.

Bearcat, we certainly have had a lot of black helicopter running around lately. We believe at least a dozen packs have been introduced around the state mostly in the ring around Des Moines and the hyperliberal Iowa City, where people are reportedly tossing out chunks of "outed" neo-cons for them to feed on. Also, reports of dogs, cats, and small children disappearing have overwhelmed the media overnight.

And not one wild elk has been spotted since the black helicopters were first spotted. There can be no doubt, we have wolves!

What a hoot.
Brent

That's right, 250 to 750, (depending on which group is counting), wolves, have had no negative effect on big game in Wyoming, Montana, or Idaho. I am sure the pro-wolf people think that the elk and moose numbers have acutually increased. And that if "IF" the numbers have declined, it is because of the drought and grizzly bears not wolves, because wolves only eat the sick, old,and dying. LOL!

Time will tell, the truths are coming out. I can ask and have a asked several Wy G&F, law enforcement and biologists in this part of the state what wolves are doing to elk numbers, and every one, with the exception of one biologist,(he has been pro-wolf since day one) and they will tell you the wolves are impacting elk and moose in a negative,and dramatic manner. No they will not wipe out the elk and moose, even though many moose areas have closed and been combined with others with quotas reduced. But opportunities now and for future generations will be impacted.

Like I said before, the presence of illegaly introduced canadian wolves have done and iwll not do any good!

Brent: I guess you are not the exception to the rule.......your holy grail they are obviously. No one here has to defend the simple facts to those that refuse to see them. The very man that was intramental in putting the canadian wolves back in idaho has himself killed a good number of the pack in northern idaho, seemed that they like to just kill livestock for "fun". Jee didn't see that one coming . There are no black helicopters running around here, just a bunch of people with there head stuck in the sand chanting "the facts will not sway me!" Packs have been well documented killing game for fun and not eating them, I'm sure that is a result of abundant game but that is changing. But you didn't answer my question IF you are a hunter.....a hunter of what?

An avid hunter? I don't know about Brent but I hunt about 120-150 days per year (some days all day but most days just for an hour or two in the morning or late afternoon)--Deer, elk, moose (if I could ever draw), bear, cougar, turkey, pheasant, quail, huns, ducks, geese, coyotes, foxes, bobcats, (wolves at some point in the future)... all of the above are within 30 minutes of my home and most are immediately surrounding it. We also have a resident pack of canis lupis running around....

I am supportive of the Clearwater wolf removal "experiment" as it will probably answer a lot of questions....

IV

Ah, now that Kudu has shown up, I guess are pretty much all here and accounted for.

Bearcat, I hunt whitetail, turkeys, elk, mule deer, pheasants, fox squirrels, ducks, geese, quail, Abert's squirrels, rabbits, antelope, and just about whatever I please.

Facts, I deal with everyday, and quite obviously you don't. That's cool. Nothing new under the sun.

Brent

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brent:
Ah, now that Kudu has shown up, I guess are pretty much all here and accounted for.

Bearcat, I hunt whitetail, turkeys, elk, mule deer, pheasants, fox squirrels, ducks, geese, quail, Abert's squirrels, rabbits, antelope, and just about whatever I please.

Facts, I deal with everyday, and quite obviously you don't. That's cool. Nothing new under the sun.

Brent[/QUOT


UH yea that last crack was real inteligent, as for me posting to this subject is done, I don't waist my time tring to reason with a fool.

Someone help me. I just read somewhere in the last two weeks where the folks in Idaho estimate there are 600 Wolves in Idaho alone! Has anyone else seen that number. I read it somewhere because if it would have been on a computer site I would have referenced it here.
The last numbers I read in a Montana publication was for 750 to 1,000 Wolves total in all of Montana, all of Idaho and all of Wyoming - not just the Yellowstone region.
I am searching my stuff for the source of this 600 number in Idaho and will post when and if found.
Anyway we are WAY over the toatl promised by the feds, the greens and the rmef of 325 Wolves TOTAL for Wyoming, Montana and Idaho - and the pup season is about to be upon us again in a couple months!
And I do have the latest numbers on the Montana Elk Hunting special permit numbers for the Norhtern Yellowstone Elk herd Hunting. They formerly gave out 2,850 special Elk permits in the Montana units covering this herd! In 2,006 they will be giving out 148!!! Like the article I referenced said they will soon shut down these permits completely! In my opinion it should be shut down immediately! As my first concern is for the Elk herd itself! The way the Wolves are exploding and once ALL the Elk are killed off it will take many decades to get the herd back up to its former population of 19,500! Thats what it was in 1995 the year the rmef thought it woudl be a good idea to transplant Canadian Wolves to the norther Rockies! The latest Elk census in this area showed 8,000 Elk and not enough calves to sustain itself EVEN IF the Wolves woudl miraculously somehow quit eating Elk!
Sheesh!
Now don't anyone get me wrong I do not hate Wolves (and I have said this dozens of times before on this forum and in others) and I do not wish them extermination but we as sportsmen, conservationists and ranchers and state game agencies fought for many decades to bring about wonderful game herds where 100 years ago there were none! And now at the behest of Clintonista greens in the federal bureaucracy, the dim witted dipshits at the rocky mountain WOLF foundation and the berkeley crowd we have 1,000 Wolves decimating our Elk herds in several regions of Montana, Wyoming and Idaho - with more areas to suffer likewise in the near future!
Wolves sure look like Coyotes to me sometimes! I hope I don't get them mixed up!
Maybe some folks in Massachusetts and berkeley and in long island and some dim witted dipshits in Missoula enjoy decimated Elk herds and Elk Hunting opportunities BUT I DON'T!

Buffybr: I enjoyed your posting and I will give you one quick reference to an article I read regarding our new neighbors here in Montana (the Canadian Gray Wolf!). It turns out that each Wolf eats the bio-mass equivalent of 1.8 Elk a month! Thats 21.6 Elk a year per Wolf! Yes indeed the Wolves do eat Mice and Rabbits and Lemmings and such but for the most part they prefer larger game and those that study these things came up with the 1.8 Elk bio-mass equivalent per Wolf per month numbers.
Thats a lot of Elk!
Sheesh!
Thanks for NOTHING rmWOLFf!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG

I read that same article only a few weeks ago and I can't find the one with the 600 count in it. But knowing those folks we can be sure that is a conservative number. I did find this one.

Wolf count Idaho

Check out the IDFG website referencing the Clearwater Wolf Removal Proposal... I think it has an estimate.

What I found most alarming about the public meeting I went to in Lewiston was that those who were against lowering the population of wolves by 75% actually had the audacity to claim that irreparable harm could come to the local population of wolves in the Clearwater--meaning that we might wipe them out and not be able to get them back.

WHAT??
Not get them back???

I think the wolf has proven itself a very resilient translocatable species.....

IV

quote:

UH yea that last crack was real inteligent, as for me posting to this subject is done, I don't waist my time tring to reason with a fool.

Bearcat, I can think of far better adjectives than fool! He is a teacher at a college in Iowa! He comes to Wyoming on occassion to hunt and has a friend that is a biologist, that makes him an expert on wolves and that the wolf has done no harm to elk populations in NW Wyoming! Go figure huh!

In Sept of 1983 I shot a very nice 6-pt Bull just north of the Park off the Slough Creek drainage in the Absoraka Beartooth Wilderness. I had planned on going back there this year until reading this.

Thanks for the "indirect" heads up.

Big Al

I just came from the official Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Department website.
Ther hidden in the clutter was a new (I am sure its newly posted as I peruse this site very carefully and very often!).
Anyway they have a Wolf population article and graph and the curve of population of the Wolves has shot up like a ROCKET in the last 3 - 4 years!
Anyway in print the Montana Fish & Game department declares - and I will quote - " at the end of 2,004 the MINIMUM population of Wolves in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho is 835 Wolves"! I added the exclamation point!
Does anyone doubt there are 1,000 Wolves now in the year 2,006 in this tri-state area?
I will attempt to link the Montana Fish and Game site for any interested (concerned) parties.
Remember when they promised us ONLY 325 Wolves MAXIMUM now they are admitting to 835 Wolves MINIMUM!
Sheesh - I feel a good screwing up of my Hunting opportunities coming on!
Link: http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/wolf/population.html

Thanks for nothing rmWOLFf!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Reading deeper into the article I posted just above from the Montana Fish and Game folks they state that at the end of the year 2,004 the estimated MINIMUM number of Wolves in Idaho alone was 422 Wolves! So after the pups were born in the spring of 2,005 I would surmise that 80 more Wolves were born into that "minimum" population! So over 500 Wolves at a minimum is not far off of the number I saw in print recently of 600 for Idaho alone. I will keep looking for that specific reference.
I always stop to buy gas at the station in Osborne, Idaho (on Interstate 90) when I am travelling to and from the coast. Just last Wednesday as I was gassing up there a guy with a rmef decal in his window was there also. I asked him if he knew that the rmef supported (financially, politically and philosophically) the introduction of Gray Wolves to Idaho?
He replied no he did not know that. I asked him to look into it, as I had, and he said he would because he and his Hunting buddies were getting tired of hearing and seeing Wolves and yet the Elk were getting tough to find!
I should have asked him to contact the heirarchy at the rmef and let them know how he feels about seeing fewer Elk and more Wolves.
Maybe he will figure that out for himself.
Anyway 600 Wolves in this one state is just way to many and the game herds and Hunting opportunities have surely AND will surely suffer more.
Utah I think you are next and then Colorado and New Mexico and then Arizona.
Think about your hard earned Elk and Moose herds going up in Wolf farts!
Then think about the rmWOLFf standing by and not doing anything to hold the feds and the states feet to the fire regarding their promises of ONLY 325 Wolves in the three states and of Idaho having 600 Wolves - ALONE now!
Sheesh.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I don't doubt that there are in excess of 1000. They are showing up in all parts of Wyoming. I seen 5 while elk hunting in one drainage within 4 miles of the highway to Cody. I mentioned it to the rancher that lets us hunt, and he simply shrugged his shoulders and said there are different packs in almost every drainage. My son was lion hunting yesterday and the game warden where he was hunting told him there are now three packs in the Big Horns. They know no boundry and will spread until they inhabit most of the west.

Kudu56: I agree 100% with the Wolves expanding into all the areas of the Rocky Mountain West!
Its just a matter of time.
You mentioned Cody, Wyoming I used to Hunt that area a lot - would you happened to have known the now late Burt Schultz of Cody, Wyoming he owned a ranch I Hunted on for many years down near Meteetsee. He lived near the intersection of Highway 120 and state route 14, 16, 20 just a couple miles out of Cody.
He had an adult son and daughter that were active in Rodeo. Great guy I hope you got to know him in your Hunting travels. He passed away about 8 years ago. He only Hunted Elk though, up in the Thoroughfare Country. He used to tell me stories how he and his friends would shoot a Buffalo right off when they got to camp (via packtrain of horses) and thats all they ate for the whole Elk Hunt! This was legal back then by the way.
To many Wolves!
Spreading like a Big Game eating cancer!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

This thread needs to be linked from the wolf in illinios thread. How is it that people don't see the need to get a handle on this population explosion.
It's wiping out the very thing we have been spending our money to support. Nate

hey felows,don't take my word for fact,but I was told that the listed numbers are actually the number of breeding females
mark

I live about 85 miles due north of the northern entrance to the park and I am hearing more reports of wolf sightings than ever.Three weeks ago a friend of mine was headed to Great Falls and spotted 6 along the edge of hiwy 89 about 3 miles south of Ringling.w/regards

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
Check out the IDFG website referencing the Clearwater Wolf Removal Proposal... I think it has an estimate.

IV

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/wildlife/wolves/wolf_control_charts.cfm

Go to the bottom chart.

I remember reading that they will never leave the park because of the large area to roam and amount of food to eat.

I found the following information on grey wolves interesting. If we have 835 live wolves and 292 killed in the tri state area, that's a lot of wolves. With 66 breeding pairs and some saying that a pack can have more that one breeding pair with abundant food, we are looking at a bumber crop of wolf pups this year.

Although wolves feed primarily on big game animals, they occasionally do kill livestock and other domestic animals such as domestic dogs or llamas. In the tri-state area, a total of 429 cattle and 1,074 sheep (this wasn't going to happen) have been confirmed killed by wolves between 1987 and 2004. In Montana, the total is 190 cattle and 409 sheep. USFWS and the State of Montana work with livestock producers to reduce the risk of wolf-caused losses and resolve conflicts through a combination of non-lethal deterrents and lethal control. Between 1987 and 2004, a total of 292 wolves have been killed in the tri-state area to resolve wolf-livestock conflicts and 166 wolves have been killed in Montana.

By the end of 2004, there was an estimated 835 wolves and 66 breeding pairs in the tri-state area. In Montana, there were about 153 wolves in 15 breeding pairs.

• Good news for Iowa, “Wolves are great travelers and are known to disperse up to 500 milesâ€.

http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/tande/wolf.html

I feel if the wolves leave the park we should be able to hunt them. A lot of money is collected from sportsman licenses and I won't be buying sportsman licenses this year. With the price increase and wolf depredation on the elk herd, I will cut back to deer and antelope while they last. Maybe a reduction in revenue may get the MT FW&P's attention.

quote:

Good news for Iowa, “Wolves are great travelers and are known to disperse up to 500 milesâ€.

Indeed it is good news. I've had a standing bet that we would have wolves breeding in Iowa by 2015. I think we will make that with room to spare. Some of you folks out west are just a bit luckier than the rest of us, but then we have known that all along.

Brent

"My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts"

There is a reason our forefathers wiped out the wolves here.

As a known psychology/sociology professor in Colorado, friend of many ranchers, have a hunting partner who is a game warden, and could go on, but won't, I question those who live outside the area vis-a-vis the wolf issue. I've seen wolves in Wyoming. I've seen damage to livestock. Methinks we may have a troll or "pseudo-Kerry-Hunter" in our midst.
Max

quote:

Some of you folks out west are just a bit luckier than the rest of us

Yes we are, and in the fact we don't have you out here!

quote:

Methinks we may have a troll or "pseudo-Kerry-Hunter" in our midst.

Yes we do and he is from iowa! But we must remember he has a friends cousins, uncles nephews,friend of a freind that is a biologist. You see that makes him and expert! In his opinion, the wolves have not reduced elk numbers, or moose numbers. It is the drought, loss of habitat, and human intrusion. Wolves only eat the weak and old dying mice. We have more elk than ever before becuase Minnesota has more deer along with the vegetarian wolves!


Wolf supporters!