I was talking to a guy the other day about elk hunting and he got to talking about his guide. He said his guide wouldn't allow anyone to hunt elk with a .270 caliber (.270 Win specifically) rifle unless they were using a 160 grain bullet or heavier. Well I thought this wasn't too much of a big deal but then I asked him what he was using to hunt and he told me a 7mm Rem Mag with 140 grain TSX. I said wasn't that a little light considering you had to use a 160 in a .270. He told me his guide said any 140 grain and up was ok in a 7mm caliber rifle in fact his wife was using a 7mm-08 to hunt her elk with the same grain of TSX bullet.

Trying to be polite as possible I told him that his guide didn't know much about the performance of a .270 Win. I told him that a .270 would hit harder on an elk than his wife’s 7mm-08 with equal weight bullets any day and that it wasn't that far behind his 7mm Rem Mag in performance with equal weight bullets. I guess those were fighting words because he got pretty upset that I was questioning his guide on what would work on elk. I didn't feel too bad though because I personally like the .270 for hunting all game in Colorado.

The only two rifle calibers I've ever taken elk with were 180 Win PSP in .30-06 and 150 grain Nosler Partitions in .270 Win. While I wouldn't personally chose a smaller diameter bullet than the .277 for elk hunting, I know people who have taken elk with the .243 Win and .25-06 Rem on regular basis. I don't fault them at all for doing this as the calibers they chose are perfectly legal in Colorado for elk as long as they use bullets 80 grains or heavier.

I can honestly say that I wouldn't be afraid to go after the bull of a life time with the .270 Win. As long as I'm using premium bullets like the Partition I wouldn't be afraid to break bone or take shots at extreme angles either within normal hunting ranges out to 300 yards. So I guess you could say a properly loaded .270 Win would be my minimum caliber and choice and everything below it in diameter I would consider a marginal bullet for elk.

Now I'm not a true believer that the .270 Win is the end all of hunting cartridges. I know that there are calibers out there that are just as good and some that are better. I've just used the .270 Win enough to know that it works as long as I do my part and make the shot count as with any caliber.

WEll, I have never hunted any elk, but have shot literally hundreds of African game animals, including some reputed to be very tough. Like sable, zebra, gemsbuck, kudu, watebuck and eland with 270 caliber rifles.

At no time did I ever feel that I was undergunned.

I used 130 grain Barnes X, 140 Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and 150 Jensen bullets.

All performed admireably well.

One day we were following some sable, when we came across a lion tracks. I asked my PH what he thought we should do is we came across that lion, and I only had my 270 Ackley.

He said "Just shoot it."

agreed. the .270 is more than adequate for elk. the 160-grain bullet may be a good idea, but no one would be undergunned with a 150.

Kinda funny some of the cartridge/bullet remarks you get ain't it. The only elk I ever shot at was at 200yds with a lowly 270win using an inferior 150g.Sierra GameKing. That was the best eating game meat I have ever had.

Last year I killed two Elk cows with my 270 WSM and 140 Accubonds. The year before I killed a Bull with the same combo. All were one shot kills.

Every bull I've taken was with a .280 and my cousin who lives in MT has taken bulls with the .223 (legal in MT). Each were neck shots and that's asking for trouble IMHO, but it dropped them stone dead. I did take a MT Mulie with the .223 once (neck shot) but see no reason the .270 wouldn't be a fine cartridge for elk. I know of more elk lost to big bore guns than .270s. Shot placement. LDK

Unfortunately, there are lots of folks out there like that guide -- folks with a minimal understanding of basic ballistics.

And yet those seem to be the ones who are most opinionated.

A .270 WCF with a controlled expansion bullet may not be the ideal caliber for elk, but it is more than sufficient and certainly not inferior to a 7mm-08.

That guide needs a serious dose of a reality check.

I have never been elk hunting, but I have killed nearly 100 deer with 270 Win. I have a friend who has taken elk, moose, and the grand slam of sheep all with a 270 Win. I am not sure what his loads were, but he never shot any animal more than once.

My best friend wants to take an elk with a .25-06. Should work, if the placement is there.

As to that guy who thinks a 7-08 is enough gun and a .270 isn't, you could always grab a ballistics chart with the energy amounts and argue with him. Or just say you are going to use a .22 LR for grizzly and see what he says!

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
He said his guide wouldn't allow anyone to hunt elk with a .270 caliber (.270 Win specifically) rifle unless they were using a 160 grain bullet or heavier.

The guide is a moron. I could take my 270 to his hunting camp with my handloads and tell him they are 160 partitions (no matter what weight they really were), and use them, so long as he believes they are 160s. What's he gonna do? Take a bullet puller and weigh my bullet?

If I actually downed an elk, I'd let him know that the 130 partition worked just fine. (or 140 or 150).

Anyone wonder if the Guide in question has seen enough wounded/lost Game with the smaller weight bullets in a 270Win so that he has come to that decision?
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I do believe there are "Marginal Hunting Calibers", and Bullets used outside their Design Envelope, but have never Hunted an Elk, so it would be inappropriate for me to comment on them.

You can find plenty of posts where folks mention Killing Deer with various 22cal Cartridges and Bullets. Unless the thread has been deleted, this link should take you to where a fellow Board member actually believes that a Down-Loaded 22Hornet is adequate for Killing Deer.(You will have to scroll up the thread to find it.)

I do believe there is such a thing as Under-Kill, Under-Cartridged, and Under-Bulleted depending on what the Game happens to be. I realize folks can site examples of Killing Deer with 223Rems and similar Cartridges, but I DO NOT agree it is an appropriate use for Cartridges that small and their power level. I base that on 5-decades of Killing and Tracking Game for myself and lots of folks.

I also believe you can Over-Cartridge the Hunter to the point they are afraid of actually using the firearm, be it rifle, revolver, pistol or shotgun. I often wonder if the folks who use the sub-standard Cartridges aren't really just afraid of an adequate Cartridge.

I'm not interested in "justifications" for using improper Cartridges for the task at hand. I do realize some folks have to deal with Medical Handicaps and still desire to Hunt - good for them. At the same time I DO NOT agree with them using marginal Cartridges and marginal Bullets simply because "they" can't handle what is appropriate.

Parents wanting their children to begin Hunting, but the kid isn't able to shoot an appropriate firearm, or can't even hold one in position, is simply WRONG! And yet, otherwise sane people do their best to offer ridiculous suggestions on what a 5-10 year old should use. If a child can't hold an adequate firearm in an Off-Hand position and hit a Target, then they are simply too young and too under-developed(physically and mentally) to be put in a position where they are expected to Kill something.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills - with appropriate Cartridges and properly Designed Bullets.

i've thrown my hat in this ring before and will again.my personal experience somewhere in the neighborhood of 35 elk i have killed w/ the 270.shooting sierra boattails to 130 grn ballastic tips and yes even a couple w/ nosler partions.
elk don't read ballistic charts,its all about how you stop the oxygen supply from reaching the brain!period!
bullet placement over bullet weight anytime.
don't tell the mountain elk in the state of wyoming the 270 ain't enuf gun,cause so far i've convinced a bunch of fine elk chops,roasts and steaks to lay down and die,when the 270 comes out of the scabbard.

While I'm no champion of the .270, don't forget that most, if not all, elk guides are cowboys, sheepherders, shoe clerks and such during the off season. Being a guide does not make you an instant ballistics expert. Which is proven by the scenerio posted.

If you really want to annoy him point out that the .270 is actually larger than 7mm since the bullet is .277" diameter and 7mm converts to 0.2756".

Then ask what he thinks about the plan to convert our currency to metric, and what will the exchange rate be for our current U.S. Dollars for the new Metric dollar.


With all that said, I've used the 160gr. Nosler Partition out of the .270 Win. and it's a great killer.

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:
If you really want to annoy him point out that the .270 is actually larger than 7mm since the bullet is .277" diameter and 7mm converts to 0.2756".

Then ask what he thinks about the plan to convert our currency to metric, and what will the exchange rate be for our current U.S. Dollars for the new Metric dollar.


With all that said, I've used the 160gr. Nosler Partition out of the .270 Win. and it's a great killer.

And then watch him go into mental fits

The neighbor girl shot a big 6x6 last year with her 22-250. It wouldn't have been my first choce but it killed him dead. She is 12 and also got a nice mule deer with the same gun. Gianni

One of the guys that works for us on the farm now has a record of 8 shots on elk with his 22/250, and 8 dead elk to show for it.

Ironically, the first elk (a spike) he took with his "big gun", the 25/06 took three bullets through the lungs before dropping.

The guide's been standing too close to the discharge end of his horse..... JMO, Dutch.

In my neighborhood most 7mm are .284. Or.... you were just trying to buffalo the guide and got me instead?

I was with a group where a Colorado guide said that Nosler Partitions were not good elk bullets. They exited with just a small hole so the bullet must not have opened up. I said, the elk was dead and you got it so what was wrong. He wanted a bigger hole. I asked about the boiler room and found that the bullet did do damage. Most guides don't know what happens with which bullet, or how the bullets are supposed to perform.

In some instances, I think guides are just that...guides. They can put you on the game. Anything more than that might well be beyond their comprehension or they really do not care.

I would never say that the 270 Win was inadequate for elk. I would never say that the 22rf was inadequate for elephant. Because if I did the first thing that would happen is someone would chime in with 10 documented examples of {name your species} killed stone dead with {name your caliber} and I would be roundly abused for my ignorance.

Having said that, my own preference is to go a little heavier than necessary. I have nothing to prove, and no pet rifle to defend. Would I hunt elk with a 270 Win? Yes I would, with properly constructed bullets, but I do tend to think of the 270 Win as a minimum caliber for elk. This is my own personal opinion only, and is not based on anything other than my own way of doing things.

One thing for sure - guides, including African PHs are not necessarily gun nuts, or even particularily knowledgeable of ballistics. I listen politely to everything they have to tell me, but make my own judgements on the validity.

Woolly, nothing wrong with thinking the 270 is the minimum for elk, but there are many, many elk killed every year with much smaller cartridges.

One important thing to remember is that one elk is not the other. What works on a late season hunt for a yearling cow, calmly grazing on a snow covered hill side won't necessarily work well on a rut-crazed 7x6 stepping through a dark timber patch 50 yards from diving into Hernia Gulch.

My main elk rifle had been a 7mag, but I've been moving up to 35Whelen lately, and I just bought a 358 Norma. I like shooting the bigger boys, and they do give me a measure of mental comfort when pulling the trigger on a bruiser. The kids, however, shoot downloaded 270's, and won't take snap shots. We both put elk in the freezer. FWIW, Dutch.

quote:

In my neighborhood most 7mm are .284.

No, the actual conversion from metric to US customary unit for 7mm is 0.2756".

Your .284's are actually 7.21 mm's.