Which do you think gives better penetration and expansion? Which would hold better if it were to hit bone? What results do you have to back it up?

The point of the bullet itself has little to do with what you are asking. Give us 2 SPECIFIC examples of bullets you are interested in, and you'll get tons of replies.

Like Bobby said, that's a pretty open question.

A "normal" Ballistic Tip will give a much different performance than say an AccuBond or a Swift Scirocco, even though all are plastic tipped.

A Nosler Partition will give a much different performance than a boattail spitzer or a heavy roundnose, though they are all lead tipped.

You've also got to take into account caliber & bullet weight, as well as type of construction.

Great points. All of which I thought of after I posted this. So what if you had the choice between a 162 grain SST or BTSP in a 7 Mag.

Monticello,

I had problems with Nosler Ballistic Tips in cartridges that had over 3,000 fps. at the muzzle. So I called Nosler to complain and was told by the technician I talked to that the Ballistic Tip was NOT designed to "work" at velocities over 2,900 fps. Had the same problem with Hornady SST's too. Cartridges I tried them in were .257, .270 & .300 Weatherby, .25-06 and 7mm Remington. Now bonded bullets like the AccuBond and InterBond may very well be a different story. Haven't tried them and may well not as I am having such good luck with the newer Barnes TSX bullets. I don't believe you'll be happy with their performance in your 7mm Remington. Lawdog

Lawdog,
The Nosler Ballistic Tip really scares me on game. On an Australian forum, pictures have been posted of a 180gr Nosler BT fired from a 300WSM at a fallow stag at 300m that has disintegrated, with 15cm penetration. I thought that the BT in .30 cals and above had been toughened up? When the 8mmRemMag is finished, the 180gr BTs are being fired at paper only!
Cheers...
Con

Wow! That's an eye opener. I did use the SST at about 2500 fps this past year on a 135 pound whitetail. I had complete pass through in the ribs and he only went 30 yards. It's funny though that the first time I used a polymer tip, was the first time I had a deer run. All others (10+) have been bang flops with the Sierra BTSP at 2900 fps.

Con;

If you throttle those ballistic tip down to 2700 fps or less at the muzzle, it is a totally different bullet!

I have found in my research and testing of them, shooting them at different velocities at the same media of wood, the BTs open up and penetrate much deeper at MVs under 2700.

The Ballistic Tips for varmints are designed to explode at high velocity on varmints in American Style varmint hunting. I can't imagine in OZ you want a bullet to blow up on some of your varmints.

However what I found in testing is that varmint bullets and their "blowing up" starts to decline dramatically under 2800 fps. As a matter of fact, they penetrate quite substantially are these lower velocities.

So I put on my thinking cap and concluded that after seeing BTs in heavier "hunting" weights blow up at higher velocities but not blow up at lower velocities and penetrate quite well.

All of this Acra Bond or whatever they call it and the SSTs are doing is making a bullet with a heavier shank that the standard poly tipped bullets and giving it a new name with a 'trendy' premium price tag, and a lot of people think they have something new and improved and special since they pay more for it.

Actually strikes me as the engineer can redesign the bullets in about 2 minutes and then just change the tooling or manufacturing which is probably not a big deal with all of those computerized fancy machines, and there you go.

A ballistic tip in a 300 Savage is a better hunting round than a BT in any 300 Mags based on the design of the bullet. Factories load what people buy and the mag shooters who buy them, are buying the accuracy firstly in my book.

I took an Elk that weighed 650 lbs on the hoof, at a broadside 175 yd, when it was running at a dead gallop. It went 50 to 60 yds, and was down for the count. Bullet penetrated, thru the right lung and turned an area about the size of your fist as a wound channel into hamburger, then cut the esophague in half, and them turned the bottom of the left lung, and upper part of the liver into a bowl of spaghetti, and the bullet was bulged on the far side of the hide, opposite of impact side.

The load was a 165 grain ballistic tip, ought of a 30/06 with a MV of only 2250 fps! The only reason that load was being carried, was after being told 29 times not to forget the ammo, the 16yr old kid I was hunting with "forgot the ammo" and we had traveled 200 miles on opening day of a 2 day Elk hunt.

It was all we had, so the choice was to use it and hunt or drive 400 miles round trip and loose a day of hunting.

We had the elk down within an hour of hunting.

That alone is what caused me to spend a lot of time testing ballistic tips in wood media at different velocities and in different calibers from 223 to 338 Mag.

The Ballistic tip is the first bullet I recommend to someone who is downloading ammo for reduced recoil. It does a great job of penetration down to about 1400 and 1500 fps, regardless of caliber. This includes 22 caliber and 55 grain 6 mm ballistic tips.

I'd actually take a 55 grain ballistic tip in a 6mm deer hunting any day, with an MV of 2700 fps or so over a 300 Mag with a ballistic tip in say 30 caliber.

If one tested both of these bullet side by side in a block of wood media, they would find out what I did. What is generally accepted in hunting circles about the performance both would offer under those circumstances, proved to be the exact opposite of what I saw in testing them in wood media and shooting thru water jugs.

So I know what I have by my own testing, not what I am reading or getting second or third hand.

I invite you to do the same and I think you will be surprised.

ON this side of the map, I have heard a lot of guys complain about a ballistic tip in a mag or fast velocity rifle with close up impact. But then they tout how fantastic it was on game at 400 yds. Then they will knock someone for using them in a downloaded application.

Well what is the difference of the bullet traveling at 2500 fps at 350 yds, vs traveling at the same velocity at say 150 yds or 200 yds?

None, but the average guy doesn't think that far it seems. It failed on them so they blame the bullet instead of the misapplication of its design features by themselves.

I find most bullets perform as designed within the parameters that they were designed. Most nimrods that experience failure usually blame everything under the sun, except the guy in the mirror.

For those that don't believe it, if you have a rifle range anywhere near where you live.. go out and see how busy it is the night before opening of deer season. Then go back sunday evening or late afternoon, of opening weekend.

It will be just as crowded if not moreso. The reason is everyone who missed a shot is out re zeroing his rifle, blaming it on the scope instead of his own bad shot. Or if they hit something but it took off they are rezeroing their rifle for the new boxes of ammo they bought and blaming the animal running off on the ammo or the bullet failing. None of these guys are about to blame themselves.

The self-honest guys are still out hunting and just kicking themselves in the ass for whatever went wrong.

If you are going to be loading in a mag tho, I'd pass up the BTs unless you are downloading her.

The 338 BTs have a strong and thick enough shank, you won't have those problems. I can't vouch for the 8 mm ones tho. Supposedly Nosler was beefing up the shank on the 180 grain and the 165 grain BTs in 30 caliber.

Good luck,

cheers and good shooting
seafire

Man, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, here is some of what I know I shot with a 150 7mm BT:

11 caribou
5 Dall sheep
3 antelope
1 zebra
1 blesbok
1 springbok
3 oryx
1 ibex

With a .300 RSAUM and 150 gr SST:
1 mule deer
1 chamois
1 tahr

With a .308 Win and 180 Nosler BT:
4 red stag
2 whitetails

When I hunt deer I don't normally use a BT or SST, and when I hunt in Alaska or Africa my primary gun is a .338 Win Mag with 225 gr Hormady SPs, so I can't say I shoot most of my stuff with polymer bullets, but I have NEVER lost an animal with a polymer bullet.

If you don't like them, don't use them.

quote:

On an Australian forum, pictures have been posted of a 180gr Nosler BT fired from a 300WSM at a fallow stag at 300m that has disintegrated, with 15cm penetration. I thought that the BT in .30 cals and above had been toughened up?

I have personally killed 8 elk and 2 moose with the 180gr ballistic tip launched from my 300ultramags at 3340fps and performance was very impressive.Most bullets exited and the one that was recovered broke both front shoulders of an elk and weighed 111.7 gr after being removed from the offside hide.

The last couple of threads have been extremely informative, especially Seafires.

It's funny that the whitetail I shot this year with my .270 loaded with 130 SSTs at 2500 fps produced more devestation than Sierra BTSPs loaded to 3000 fps in a 270 and 7 Mag. This seems to support Seafire's testing and experience.

I am also a much better marksman when my gun kicks less. Downloading a BT and being accurate seems to be the best of both worlds.

Here's my .02..

A couple years ago I reloaded a nice batch of Ballistic Tips for my 7mag. Nothing real hot, just a little over the 3000fps mark. I got excellent accuracy at the range and thought I was ready!

The first couple deer I shot were around the 200yd mark and the bullet really did a number on the inside of the deer. Ditto some pigs at about the same range.

The next year I shot one deer at 40 yards that was never recovered! Followed that up with a pig at around 60 yards that took off like he'd been launched from a cannon...never found him either.

After experimenting with different ranges and critters, I came to the conclusion that the bullet worked much better when it slowed down. Later, I heard what was mentioned above-that Nosler recommends less than 3000fps.

This year I loaded up some Accubond bullets but never shot a critter with my 7mag. Go figure. Guess I got too much fun outta my .45-70!

It' really not so much that this bullet or that bullet has a plastic point. It still comes down to the bullets perf. matched to the cartridge used (velocity) matched to the game intended. I've tested all of the bullets I hunt game w/. I test them in wet phone books because I find the expansion, at least, is sim. to that in game & it is a repeatable medium (they always make phone books the same). Example, a 140gr/7mm NBT @ 2900fps impact vel. pentrates less than 14" & looses 50% of it's weight. A 145gr Speer SP (flat base) @ 2900fps penetrates less than 15" & also looses 50% of it's weight, both bullets expand to over .51 caliber. The bullets are made very diff. but perform about the same. Slow them down another 100fps & perf. changes again, penetration increases & weight retention goes up. Moral; if I am shooting a magnum I use heavy for caliber, well constructed bullets. Shooting a .308/7-08/.260, you can use almost any normal weight hunting bullet & have good success on deer size game & up to cow elk.
For every guy that has a success story w/ NBTs there seems to be a guy who has a horror story. I wonder why that isn't so w/ say the Partition or TBBC or NorthFork or?????

quote:

For every guy that has a success story w/ NBTs there seems to be a guy who has a horror story.

Did you ever notice that most of those horror stories happened to someone else and not the actual person telling the story.Or that the animal was never recovered so shot placement can't be verified.Or that they occured with early versions of the ballistic tip which perform much differently than the current versions.

quote:

I wonder why that isn't so w/ say the Partition or TBBC or NorthFork or?????

Compare the number of hunters that have used ballistic tips to the number that have used tbbc's,northforks or even partitions.Due to the cheaper cost,many more people have actually used ballistic tips,hence many more "stories" about ballistic tips.

quote:

Compare the number of hunters that have used ballistic tips to the number that have used tbbc's,northforks or even partitions.Due to the cheaper cost,many more people have actually used ballistic tips,hence many more "stories" about ballistic tips.

Stubble:

The other consideration is this: screw up a shot with a Partition and you are not likely to blame the bullet. Screw it up using a BT and you might find comfort in blaming the bullet.

The only animal I have ever lost is a kudu. Shot him with a .338 Win Mag, 225 gr Hornady. Went down like a sack of potatoes. Backslaps ensued, then he got up and ran off. Tracked him for two days and lost him. The bullet, I am guessing, went between the spine and the lungs, which can cause an animal to drop, but not necessarily kill him on the spot.

I will blame my shooting and not that bullet for the loss (cost me a $700 trophy fee).

quote:

The other consideration is this: screw up a shot with a Partition and you are not likely to blame the bullet. Screw it up using a BT and you might find comfort in blaming the bullet

Good point.It is much easier to blame a product that has a negative reputation in some peoples minds whether deserved or not.If you were to buy a new sako rifle and were to blow it up after making a mistake and using the wrong powder charge,it would be very easy to blame it on the rifle after the recent problems that sako had with their stainless steels.

AZ and SJer hit it on the head. There are far more hunters carring the NBTs than any of the so called "Premium" hence more "failures" are reported. Most of those failures are poor shot placement instead of the bullets fault.

One thing that really gets me is when guys put a poor shot on game w/ a NBT and they say they should have used a better bullet. Any of you that have seen poor shots buy "Premium" bullets know that it is a nightmare especially, when they pencil.

The bad Penetration of NBTs is such utter Bull. I have shot large whitetails at close range w/ 140 NBTs @ over 3200 fps and got full penetration on quartering shots. Most of the Game I've shot w/ NBTs never took another step. I've dropped very large Boars w/ one shot from NBTs at HV as well, through the shields and all. They are all I could ask for for a medium big game bullet.

Just like someone else already said, "You either love em' or You hate em'."

Good Luck!

Reloader

Just out of curiosity, how many of you would consider the Nosler Ballistic Tip in the same class as the Hornady SST?

quote:

Originally posted by Monticello:
Just out of curiosity, how many of you would consider the Nosler Ballistic Tip in the same class as the Hornady SST?

The Hornady SST is a copy of the Nosler Ballistic Tip in my opinion. Personally I would rather spend the few extra pennies on premium bullets and take away the possible excuse of "bullet failure". Lawdog

Well, as always, hunt w/ what makes you happy, warm & fuzzy. I don't think "premiums" are req'd. for all big game hunting but it makes me feel better hunting w/ a bullet I don't have to worry about getting where it needs to go, from any angle. I'm just not patient enough to pass up a less than perfect, broadside shot that I think the NBT works best on.

My two cents worth:

I carry Federal / Trophy Bonded in a 7mm mag to hunt, and practice with downloaded core-lokts because they are cheap and accurate. Once I use up my current supply of TBs I plan to switch to Federal / Accubond. I don't get to shoot a lot of 7mm mag ammo at game so am willing to read and filter the experiences of others. Nosler claims that the accubond retains about as much weight as the partition (at more money, of course).

I used to own two old cars, and came to the conclusion that jumper cables were a bad place to save money. I feel the same way about bullets.

quote:

Nosler claims that the accubond retains about as much weight as the partition (at more money, of course).

Corax,

If you reload, the ABs are cheaper then the Partitions. I have not priced factory ammo in a while but, I can imagine w/ the ABs being new to the market, they probably are very pricey.

Good Luck!

Reloader

quote:

Just out of curiosity, how many of you would consider the Nosler Ballistic Tip in the same class as the Hornady SST?

Monticello,

I have found the SSTs to be much more fragile than the NBTs.

On the deer that I have shot w/ SSTs, there was alot of shrapnel in the meat and not much penetration. At high velocities the SSTs totaly disintegrated.

The NBTs usually do less damage to the meat and on the 2 (That's Right, 2) that I have recovered, they were perfect mushrooms against the far hide on Quartering shots(large Whitetails).

I've shot approx 7-8 whitails w/ SSTs and witnessed 3 more. From that very small number, several bullets didn't exit.

I've shot and witnessed dozens of kills w/ the NBTs and like I previously stated, I recovered only two. I think that tells which is stronger.

If you cut one of each in half or grind them down, You will notice the NBT has a thick jacket as well as a very thick base but, the SST has a thin jacket and thin base. Of coarse the SST has the little Interloct ring, totaly useless, the bullets peel right on past the ring.

Reloader

I noticed that the Accubonds/BTs have a much stronger solid base than Hornady as evidenced by cross-sectioned pictures.

Even though I use the SSTs on whitetails under 200 pounds and have found them to be more than enough, I beleive I will be using the Accubonds; but, I just plain destroyed a deer last year with 130 SSTs at 2500 fps at 25 yards.

My desire is to get a 7 Mag load that will be great for elk/mule deer/whitetails. I beleive the 160 gr Accubond will do just that. A combination of this bullet and RL 22 should get me what I want out of my Mod 70.

Congrats MOnti, I think you are heading in the right direction. RL22 is great in the 7mag, especially w/ 160-175gr bullets, also IMR7828 (IMR7828sc) & H1000.

Monti,

R22 is one fine powder for the 7RM. My 700 loves 66 grns pushing the 160 grn pills (.5MOA). That gives me 3075-3100 out of a 24" tube. It is a max load so, you may want to start in the 63-64 grn range.

Good Luck!

Reloader

I can't wait to try out the new load. I am looking forward to seeing what the groups will be. Unfortunately it will be a couple of months before I get to test them, but I will let ya'll know how they do.