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| One of Us |
If you hunt sheep in the Lower 48, you are well aware of the sheep tag game, preference points and extremely low odds of drawing a tag. Here is my question - do you have any experience buying "raffle tickets" for the various sheep tags that are given away at the various sheep shows or state sheep organizations? It seems to me that I can buy 100 raffle tickets for the Arizona sheep tag drawing and have better odds of drawing that applying via the non-resident application process. Same for Texas, New Mexico and Wyoming. I suspect the same is true for Alberta or Montana or Nevada. Anyone looked at this? | ||
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I do just about anything to "up" my odds. Continue to apply but buy other chances like raffle tickets, that's my recommendation. No matter what there is just a lot of luck involved. | |||
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I'm too lazy to research other states but here's some info on AZ. Raffle tickets are $25 each. For the 2016 hunt, they sold 6506 tickets. I'll let you do the math on your odds. For the open draw, the rules below are pertinent to non-residents. The first involves how permits are allocated to the 20% bonus pass for EVERYONE. Though you wouldn't stand a chance getting drawn in it, the number of permits allocated to it are removed from the open draw, which is where your application would wind up. The BOLDED text would apply. 2. The Department shall determine whether a hunt permit- tag will be issued to an applicant as follows: a. The Department shall reserve a maximum of 20% of the hunt permit-tags for each hunt number, except as established under subsection (C)(2)(b), for antelope, bear, deer, elk, javelina, and turkey and reserve a maximum of 20% of the hunt permit- tags for ALL HUNT NUMBERS COMBINED statewide for bighorn sheep and buffalo to issue to persons who have bonus points and shall issue the hunt permit-tags as established under subsection (C) E. The Department shall make available to nonresidents: 1. For bighorn sheep and buffalo, no more than one hunt permit-tag or 10% of the total hunt permit-tags, whichever is greater, for bighorn sheep or buffalo in any computer draw. The Department shall not make available more than 50% nor more than two bighorn sheep or buffalo hunt permit-tags of the total in any hunt number. So ... in 2016 there was a total of 97 permits and 15,758 1st choice applicants. That means 19 (20%) went in the bonus round, leaving 59 permits for the open draw. BUT, as written in Rule E. no more than 50% in any ONE hunt can go to NRs. There were 19 hunt units with only ONE permit. Thus they are off limits to NRs in either the bonus or open draw rounds. Figuring out where those single permits get drawn is impossible, however. In short, it would be extremely tough to calculate your odds other than to say you would have less than a .05% chance of getting drawn and probably even less than that. As a resident, it took me more than 35 years. I lost some points over the years, but I had 23 when I finally got drawn. That said, every once in a while a NR gets lucky even in the 1/2 pass. And even 1st time applicants get lucky. Tom Gresham (son of Grits) is a long-time friend of mine. Quite a few years ago, he moved to AZ from AK to go to work as an editor for Wolfe Publications in Prescott. He waited his six months to become a legal resident and applied for sheep. and yeah, you guessed it. We hunted antelope together in NM a few months later and I let him him know I wasn't impressed.  Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Tony, The math is staggering for sure, so I thought that the raffles may give more chances. The governors tags are an option as well. | |||
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I have applied in numerous States and purchased Raffle tickets for years and years and years and still nothing. My advice is just purchase a Dall Sheep Hunt outright and apply in your home State yearly. | |||
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from my experience - expect old age to occur long befoe you get a license | |||
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Just an opinion, nothing else, but unless you are restricting yourself to a Bighorn, doing a Dall hunt in Alaska would be the quickest way to go, that or one of the hunts for Bighorn in Mexico. JMO. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Those are great options if money is not a concern, however most of us will be forced as middle income wage earners to play the draw and raffle lottery.. I drew a Bighorn tag in the 1990's and since then have been trying to draw a Desert Sheep in Colorado but you earn no points here so I have tried to boost my odds by applying in other western states. I'm giving up the other states and sticking with Colorado. If I ever get drawn for a Desert then I'll start saving money for the Dall. | |||
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That is why I ended up going on a Musk Ox hunt. I did not believe I would ever be able to go on a sheep hunt in the Lower 48 and a Musk Ox is basically a sheep-cow, Ovibos. One fact is, if you don't put in for the draws, you definitely won't win. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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dogcat, you can always set aside some cheddar for a sheep fund and at some point you can buy a Texas landowner tag. Obviously it won't be cheap, along the lines of Mexico, but at least you can go desert sheep hunting. There is a very small handful of these tags available annually. | |||
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Thanks all! I am fairly familiar with Canada and Alaska for sheep. I am after the tags in the lower 48. I am thinking of buying 100 raffles tickets on some raffles to increase the odds.... | |||
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The raffle is certainly a possibility if you buy 100 tickets. Heck, even one ticket gives you a remote chance that might be better than the draw. Auction tags are always an option if money is no object. Last year's AZ tag at FNAWS set a record at $380,000. Just be aware that you'll be bidding against a couple folks where the amount they pay is chump change for them. PAST AUCTION PRICES: 2011 - $105,000 2012 - $160,000 2013 - $160,000 2014 - $180,000 2015 - $225,000 If you do decide to try Mexico, be sure to do VERY diligent research in regards to the outfitter. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Amazing prices for those auction tags. Carmen Island MX is the place to go nowadays Im told. Desert sheep is my dream hunt. | |||
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I am currently applying in Wyoming, Arizona and Nevada. New Mexico and Idaho don't do points, and maybe someplace else. I have applied in Idaho before but never New Mexico. I apply in Utah because I was already in. I should have applied in Colorado and Montana but never did. If I would have gotten in on the ground floor I'd have killed several sheep. Most states made the cost of playing so expensive it priced me out, and I was a young E-5 in the Navy when they started this bullshit game. Several companies who do application services have told me that unless you have tons of extra money and can afford to apply in every state, not to apply in New Mexico or Idaho. Saying that my uncle drew a Wyoming resident tag in 2015 and didn't even see a mature ram, and hunted for every day the season was open, in a area he has hunted elk in since he was 10 and he is in his 60s. He knows the area, they just over-sold the hunt. Now that I am overseas again I am just buying points. Like I said Utah, Wyoming, Arizona and Nevada. Cost me about $750-1200 for all four states for almost every species per year. When I get back, I should be able to draw some decent tags. I hope. I'll also start applying for the best tags in New Mexico for everything, the Texas state tags and raffle tags, and a sheep tag in Idaho. Some years in Idaho non-residents can't draw a tag. Idaho is pretty hard on non-residents. We don't know where we are going to live. So who knows. | |||
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Which years would that be? | |||
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One thing to keep in mind at least in Colorado and I'm sure it applies in others states like Arizona for instance that accumulating points does not assure you of drawing a tag, it may up your odds but no guarantees. I've seen too many times people who have been in the draw less time and have far less weighted points draw tags over other people with more weighted points. Point being you must be actively trying to draw at all times. Yes building points is important but it is just delaying any real opportunity you may have and by delaying is letting more and more people join the lottery and diminish your real opportunity to draw. You can't win the lotto if you don't buy a ticket. | |||
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Ahhh, for the good old days! When I started hunting bighorn sheep here in Montana, there were maybe 10 Unlimited tag units where the season started the first of September and ran through the end of November, and some years the quota wasn't filled. The price of these tags for residents was $25. I now kick myself for not taking full advantage of those tags. For many years I would buy a sheep tag and backpack or take my horses in for basically a long weekend hunt, and not go back. It took me several years to find the rams, and I kept changing units, but once I discovered where the rams were, I killed a ram a year for 4 years. But those days are long over. The price of the tags, and the demand for the tags has steadily gone up; the harvest quotas were filled earlier and earlier, and in some units the season was shortened to 5 days; and some of the previously unlimited tag units were either closed altogether or changed to limited draw units. The last unlimited unit that I hunted was overrun with hunters, and I saw more game wardens and Yellowstone National Park Rangers than legal bighorn rams. So now, along with many thousands of other wishful sheep hunters, I just apply in a limited draw unit that is known for its large rams, but even with the maximum number of "bonus points", my chances of drawing a tag are less than 1/2 of 1%. I've applied every year for the last 33 years without drawing a Montana ram tag. I also buy Montana bighorn raffle tickets every year, but that just turns out to be just a donation to FWP. I will also occasionally buy sheep raffle tickets at various sport shows or dinners, but those have also been just expensive donations, but again, if you don't apply, you have a zero chance of winning. In 1999 a Canadian outfitter friend of mine called me about a cancellation Dall sheep hunt in the Mackenzie Mountains of Canada's Northwest Territories, and I shot a beautiful 39"+ ram. He called me again a year or two later about a cancellation Stone sheep hunt for $11,000, but then I was going through a VERY nasty divorce, and only my lawyer could have afforded to go on that hunt. Crazy, I too have hunted the Canadian Artic for Musk ox (and shot a great B&C bull), but in no way would I compare Musk ox hunting to mountain sheep hunting. NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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In Wyoming if they are giving away 12 tags to max point holders, and 24 max point holders have applied for an area you have a 50% chance of getting a tag. Some percent (I think it is 10 or 20) goes to the general population draw. So an area with 10 tags, 8 of those tags will go to max points, the other two to general public. Or something close to that, haven't read it in about 18 months. At 42, I am contemplating if I will ever get enough points to draw in Wyoming's preference progam. A bonus program is a lot more fair to those that have more time on their hands.. As anyone can draw. Point creep is killing me on a lot of these areas, where there are literally thousands of people that have near max points and in a system like Wyoming have the tags locked up. | |||
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The only sure way to get a bighorn sheep tag is to buy one through the auction, landowner (Texas), or go to Canada/Mexico. Everything else leaves you with low odds. Like everyone else, I donate my money to all of the fish and wildlife services across the west that offer a sheep tags. So far I have a pile of points and one day, I'll draw something. By the time I do, I could have bought a bighorn hunt in Alberta. The way I look at it, that money is supporting what I love better than money spent elsewhere. The fish and game departments generally do good work to keep conservation alive. Politicians screw it up, but that is our system. Until I draw, there are a few places I can hunt a sheep, like Alaska, without killing my pocketbook. Then there are the goats. Maybe not as spectacular a trophy (excluding ibex), but they are darn sure as challenging. I've been on sheep and goat hunts with lucky friends in Montana, and the goats were tougher than the sheep by a long way. Goat hunts are pretty reasonably priced worldwide. Jeremy | |||
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Similar story here except I finally drew last year!! Had put in for 28 years, maximum bonus points. Had a blast, hunted all season, connected on a decent ram. I'll start putting in again after my seven year wait is up. As for the OP, do take a look at unlimited places in Montana and other states, if they have any. What buffybr writes is true: fewer districts, higher pressure. Plus really hard to do from Oklahoma. However, you'll see sheep, be hunting sheep, have a great experience and juuuuuuuust might get lucky. On my last unlimited hunt I was looking at a ram that was so close to legal, mentally trying to add length to his horns, that I handed my rifle to my wife and told her to not give it back to me unless SHE was convinced it was legal. | |||
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Dogcat, Only place not on your list of hunt reports is Kyrgyzstan for marco polo and ibex. Less than 30k gets you a supersized Dall and an ibex. Much more value, IMO, than AK.  Ski+3 | |||
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I turn 70 yrs. old this coming July. I have multiple bonus points. I will apply once more this spring and purchase another bonus point for the 2017 MT bighorn sheep hunt. If I am successful it will be great. If not, I did have the opportunity, the excitement that I might draw and the anticipation. I look at this thru rose colored glasses happy that I have had the chance to draw. For you youngsters I say keep the faith. If possible go to Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, The Kamchatcha peninsula Russia, Alaska, Mexico or wherever it may be that your heart desires. I have been fortunate enough to hunt a few countries, within reason I might say. Save your money and plan as I/we have over the years. It made trips of these possible through savings and endurance of mind. Never been one of the need for instant gratification. I worked it out by taking extra work that I dedicated the funds toward adventure hunting trips. It can be done with patients. This is not a dress rehearsal, you go this way but one time. Plan, save, execute. Good luck, good shooting, good hunting! | |||
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| One of Us |
I turn 70 yrs. old this coming July. I have multiple bonus points. I will apply once more this spring and purchase another bonus point for the 2017 MT bighorn sheep hunt. If I am successful it will be great. If not, I did have the opportunity, the excitement that I might draw and the anticipation. I look at this thru rose colored glasses happy that I have had the chance to draw. For you youngsters I say keep the faith. If possible go to Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, The Kamchatcha peninsula Russia, Alaska, Mexico or wherever it may be that your heart desires. I have been fortunate enough to hunt a few countries, within reason I might say. Save your money and plan as I/we have over the years. It made trips of these possible through savings and endurance of mind. Never been one of the need for instant gratification. I worked it out by taking extra work that I dedicated the funds toward adventure hunting trips. It can be done with patients. This is not a dress rehearsal, you go this way but one time. Plan, save, execute. Good luck, good shooting, good hunting! MTG | |||
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MT. Gunner I am the same age as you . I have put in for a Montana sheep tag for 42 years and have not been draw.I quit putting in for mountain goats and moose after drawing 3 of each within ten years,many cow tags.I feel the tag gods dont like me anymore.Now I am not in physical condition to even try a sheep hunt here in Montana. My best advice is just keep putting in for all the tags you can. Good luck | |||
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Hey you Montana boys. I think we're all in the same boat. I'll turn 71 in a few weeks. Like some of you, I was lucky enough to have drawn the tags when I was half of my present age. I shot my goat, one of my moose, and my sheep on DIY solo hunts. I have maximum bonus points and I'll put in for all three of those critters again this year, however since I don't have horses any more I'm not sure how I would get a moose out, and it seems like the goat mountains get higher and steeper every year and I wonder if I can still get up into goat country and if I would be able to pack one out. My mind is up to the hunt, all I need is for my body to follow... and a tag. NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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I was privileged to draw a man. Goat tag in the Cabinets in 2011 and successfully took a good Billy. This I am thankful and proud. Let me say it kicked my butt albeit one of the most adventurous hunts of my career. My decision to apply for this last season, 2017, has been a difficult realization that my capabilities a being drained by age. Don't get me wrong, I am in decent shape with no real physical illness. Yet, I am not deluded about my age. It is a decision and also a complimance to a request from my lovely wife of 46 yrs. to begin to wind down somewhat. Yes, she did ask...I have consented. Now, I hope in the next seasons some fortunate person might indeed draw the tag that I may, or may not have drawn. Once again, I urge those who dream to work hard, save, plan and go for it, my hunting adventures have been a true delightful gift of adventure. My memories are fond, my hunting pals valued. BTW, I will continue other big game hunting but believe the lofty heights have to be left to the younger. I submitted a story about my mountain goat hunt to SCi and was published in their magazine 2012. The title of my story is"Sparks". It details three days of arduous, enjoyable goat hunting. Perhaps some may be able to find my account of adventure. MTG | |||
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My parents and aunt and uncle have drawn a lot of Wyoming moose tags. Not sure of the number, but they have done well. My mom and aunt don't hunt anymore and my dad is probably done as well. I would bet they have killed 6 moose between the 4 of them if not more. All of this was in the good old days before points, and as residents they had that going for them. Any of you guys that lived through the golden age of hunting in the West have probably done well in the tag department. My father never applied for a sheep tag until he was too old to hunt them (he has stage 5 COPD). He has 13-15 points on sheep ( I can't remember). He never cared about sheep. I have 3 -5 year gig in Germany. When this is over I am really hoping to move back to Wyoming, and base our hunting out of there. | |||
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Big Wonderful Wyoming, do you mind elaborating on your earlier statement regarding Idaho? | |||
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Sure, In 2016 5 non-residents got tags, in the majority of areas no non-residents were awarded a tag, even though for RM11 190 residents applied and drew 1 tag. In 2015 5 non-residents got tags, in the majority of areas no non-residents were awarded a tag, even though for RM11 213 non-residents applied. In 2014 6 non-residents got tags, good old RM11 had 197 non-res apply and no one got a tag? So why are they applying for no tag? There must be some structure to it, but I don't know where to figure it out. So it seems to be that in Idaho, you might be apply for a tag that doesn't exist and not even know it? Am I right? | |||
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I am just using Rm11 as a example. Confusing program Idaho has. | |||
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Idaho sets aside 10% of the tags for a unit for non-res if there are 10 or more tags offered in that unit. If less than 10, they may offer 1 tag to non-res, or no tags. No clear rule on which way this goes from what I have seen. The tag allocations sometimes aren't set until after the draw deadline or they get adjusted. So, your tag chance may get nixed by the allocation for that unit after you apply. Jeremy | |||
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I guess you should only apply there if you have the money to burn. If things are tight, everywhere else is a better deal. | |||
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"Idaho sets aside 10% of the tags for a unit for non-res if there are 10 or more tags offered in that unit." This is not correct. Idaho does not set aside sheep tags for non-residents. Everyone goes in to the draw equally. The limiting factor is the 10% cap on tags to non-residents. That cap is for the species, and the unit. There are no sheep units with 20 tags so every unit will have at most one NR able to draw. Depending on the total number of tags available every year, the NR species cap is 5 or 6. The draw continues with everyone entered until the species 10% cap is hit, then all NR's are excluded from the draw going forward. BWW, in your RM11 2014 example, 197 NR's did put in. But they were applying for the 1 tag in the unit. 57 residents also applied for the tag. A resident drew it. There is no way of knowing if the 10% NR cap had been filled by this time or if the resident just got lucky. | |||
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| One of Us |
Say a guy is 30 and just starting out in the application game. He will only gain enough points to draw a tag if he outlives all the other applicants. Wyoming is going on 20 max points, Utah is over 20 points for max, Nevada is around 20, Arizona is over 20. Guys starting now are 20 points behind, which is many lifetimes worth ahead of him. Drawing a random tag is less than 1% on most units. So if you are just starting to apply and want to hunt sheep then here is what you do. Take the money you would have spent on applications and go throw it down on the roulette wheel. Applying in each state and a few raffles is $1,000 or more. Take that $1,000 and throw it down on a combo of 2 numbers and you have a 1:17 chance to walk away with $17k and a chance to hunt dall sheep. Drop $1k on one number and it is a 1:35 chance to win $35k- which might be a stone sheep or a Utah unit tag at auction. There is no way to guarantee a sheep hunt if a guy is starting out this late in the point race, unless he is willing to buy in. | |||
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Coyote, my bad, your explanation is spot on. Teach me to go from memory and not look at my notes on their draw system. Jeremy | |||
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If you are 30 and want to hunt sheep, all you can do is apply to as many as you can afford. I am 42 and that is what I do. I still play the point game in Utah, Nevada, Wyoming and Arizona. I need to do it in Colorado and Montana, but fronting the tag is a lot. Not sure what the cost is for every sheep tag in every western state, how much you have to tie up. The residual license fees for those stats like Utah, Nevada and such that have them kills it. For 3 states Utah, Nevada, Arizona just buying points I spend about 650ish, I think. Hell of a lot of diapers, wipes, baby butt cream. I looked last night, I have 5 points on the biggest one I have, which is Wyoming. If I can move back to Wyoming when we come home from Germany and stay there, in my life time I ought to be able to kill a sheep. A lot of the guys that have max points are in their 60's plus. Wyoming's demographic for points is going to change a lot in the next few years. I am not 100% sure what the right answer is on points. They really have us by the balls on them. If you don't buy points, then 10-15 years passes and a demographic shift could bring those numbers down. | |||
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I have been monitoring this discussion. Seems everyone wants a sheep tag and some instant gratification. Well, that may no come to past for the majority of those who desire such. I posted earlier about my decision. I have made peace with my decision. Now, there are other sheep other than bighorn, desert bighorn, Dall, Stone and etc. A person can hunt aoudad in TX and NM. There are numerous sheep species to be hunted in TX. A person could apply for an Ibex tag in NM. How about a combination brown bear and snow sheep hunt on the Kamchatcha peninsula? There are alternatives to be sought and adventures to be had in exotic countries. There are sheep hunts in BC, the Yukon, Alaska and the NW Territories. The lower 48 sheep hunts are damn difficult to draw and the governors tags very pricy. Sonora Mexico desert sheep hunts are also very pricy and limited. I took a 29" aoudad near Post, TX in 2011 that was a true sheep hunt. I urge hunters to do their research and look for alternative hunts to satisfy their adventure seeking in lieu of not going on some type of sheep hunt in their collective years. MTG | |||
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Good post, there are free ranging aoudad in New Mexico, Texas and California. The price in California is about $4000-6500 depending on who you hunt with. Size is probably a lot smaller than Texas. Drawing a Persian Ibex tag in New Mexico as a non-resident adult rifle hunter is a 1 in 1000 propasition at best. Kids ought to be able to draw, especially if they are outfitted. | |||
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There are also free ranging aoudad in Spain and South Africa. An outfitter validation in New Mexico would increase the odds of drawing a tag by quite a bit for a non-res, for ibex. | |||
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