A friend of mine is going to be living in a remote location in Montana for a period of time. She is somewhat petite and although she has shot a rifle before, she is not a hunter. Righr or wrong, she really want to have a rifle for self defense again bears (black bears I assume). She asked me what cartidge would be required and I honestly don't know. What would you guys recommend? Keep in mind, she may have to get a Ladies or Youth model.

My Ruger 10/22 fit her well, so she wanted to use that. I told her shooting a bear with a 22LR cartridge will only piss him off.

Regards,
Kory

She needs pepperspray,a good attitude, and a fat boyfriend who can't run fast..---p

I am thinking a light easy to handle lever action would fill the bill. when I lived in Alaska sometimes the natives would use the .30/30 as their primary hunting weapon. I belive that would be about the minimum she would want. Remind her one of the best defensive tools is under her hat and to avoid trouble when she can. A defensive weapon is only used as a last resort.

I would consider a Ruger International in 30/06 or 270, or 308.
It is 18 inches long and depending on how much recoil she can take or not, pick your appropriate caliber and load.

A Marlin with a 16 to 18 inch barrel in 44 Mag( or Winchester 94) in 44 mag or 45 Long colt, would also be a handlable rifle for a short person with less recoil that a 30/06 with a 220 grain bullet in an 18 inch barrel.

Of course if her adreneline is pumping, she would probably never notice the recoil at all.
cheers and happy new year
seafire

A lever action .44 magnum is also a good rifle the marlin 1894 is light and handy recoil is light and you have 11 shots to back you up.Now if the bears are big say over 400 pounds it would be hard to beat a lever action 45/70 this one will stop a grizzly

I would (and do) carry a .410 shotgun with 3"mag. slugs.Works for searching for bears wounded by poorly placed arrows or bullets. Mine is a single shot with a 14" barrel. It is legal and hangs from my pack when not in use. May not work for a pissed off sow grizz though. None of those around here. Mark

I agrree with Seafire if she needs it in an emergency the recoil shouldn't be an issue. This may be a case where the "managed reciol" ammo would work well in a 30-06 so she can practice then use heavy loads for defense. Even for black bear a defense gun means stopping the argument close up, right now. It would be great if you could find a 30-06 for her to try and get a box of managed recoil or light hand loads. Women can suprise you and with a little cushion from a good recoil pad and/or a Past sholder pad a 30-06 really isn't that bad.

Thanks everyone, for the great info. I have a Remington 721 in 30-06 she can shoot to get an idea of the recoil. I was going to have her shoot it anyway, but I never thought a 30-06 would stop a bear, but I guess it does (a black bear).

Regards,
Kory

Kory,
Depending on where in Montana she is going to live she may have to deal with Black and Grizzly Bears. A Marlin 45/70 Guide rifle would be hard to beat. Also with less recoil a 44 Mag lever action with the proper loads would do in a pinch. With a charging bear a head/CNS shot is the only one that will guarantee your survival. I would also recommend she learn how to shoot a large bore revolver aaand carry it 100% of the time.

How about a 12ga. pump with slugs. Recoil may be heavt, but with addrenaline pumping, she will never feel it. The come in a youth/compact version. Just a thought-Mike

If you're only talking black bear (eastern Montana), the 30-30 or .44 Mag in a Mdl. 94 would be okay. But, if you're into the western half where grizzlies could pose a problem, I'd suggest the 12 guage pump with slugs, .....that's what I suggest for most in our bear conflict courses. If she can master a revolver in at least .357, all the better and ther's less danger of not having with you. The bear spray, although it's being pushed by everyone, is only a last ditch measure as you need fresh cans and still don't know if they'll work when needed. In all my years dealing with grizzlies, I only know one person who successfully used bear spray! .......and he bought a .44 Mag as soon as he hit civilization and practised with it over the winter for the next 6 months before going back to serious bear country. Drum one fact into her, and that's "always be prepared and think "bear country"" or they'll catch you unprepared. ~Arctic~

I don't use bearspray although it has been successful in repelling bothh Grizzly and Black Bears here in B.C. I experimented with it and, as I am mildly asthmatic, found that it really makes me "toast" if I get even a slight whiff.

I have been in at the death of quite a number of Bears, both Black and Grizzly, and have some pretty definite opinions on protection guns. I will use slugs, but, ONLY Brennekes, never the common Foster style. I much prefer a Guide Gun in .45-70, after using a variety of guns for this purpose; I actually have both the '70s style Marlin and an 1886 SRC custom repro by Browning, my actual favourite.

The recoil issue can be handled by practice with light, cast bullet handloads working up to full house 400 gr. loads,using 400 gr. Swift-A-Frames or Kodiaks and shooting for the center of chest....head shots are too difficult on a moving Bear until he is within 15 ft, as the head moves constantly.

I have packed a .44Mag. with thumper oads, but, it isn't a stopper of Bears, not like a .45-70. It takes time and constant practice to become proficient with a Bear gun, but, the peace of mind is worth it.

What about a coach gun in 12 gauge with hammers easy to identify if it's safe etc. Loaded with 2 rounds of 00 buck shot...it would be lighht and short and she will put up with the recoil if her life depends on it. Also it will be less complicated in the heat of the monet to operate than a pump....just pull the hammers back and you have two loads of 00 buck on tap......probaly all the shots you would get off in a hurry any way.

I think a handy .44 mag carbine with a good heavy hard cast bullet in the 300 plus gr. weight would do her just fine. Or a good heavey jacket bullet. A 30-30 would work also with good bullets. Most any good rifle well work getting one that is light enough that she well carry it with her is another thing. so the light levers or bolts well be the way to go.

The trouble with rifles one does not have them with themselfs all the time and they get in the way of doing chores and they get put down leaned up against a tree ect. I think they make a better choice then a handgun when one as it it your hands. But a good caliber hand gun on your hip is always there. When I go backpacking I alawys have a handgun with most of the time if not big game hunting I do not bring a rifle to much extra weight.

The thing to remember any gun is better then your fists.

A non-hunter woman in a remote wilderness situation would more than likely wound a bear if they hit it at all in a SHTF scenario.

If she uses any kind of weapon at all other than common sense I'd vote for bear spray or the coachgun.

If she is to use ANY firearm and isn't familiar with it she's more likely to shoot herself or someone around her than the bear.

$bob$

MARLIN LEVER - IN 35 REMINGTON

quote:

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Originally posted by Kory:
A friend of mine is going to be living in a remote location in Montana for a period of time. She is somewhat petite and although she has shot a rifle before, she is not a hunter. Righr or wrong, she really want to have a rifle for self defense again bears (black bears I assume). She asked me what cartidge would be required and I honestly don't know. What would you guys recommend? Keep in mind, she may have to get a Ladies or Youth model.

My Ruger 10/22 fit her well, so she wanted to use that. I told her shooting a bear with a 22LR cartridge will only piss him off.

Regards,
Kory

---

I'd probably recommend the 12 gauge with slugs or 00 buck. But in a short barreled semi-auto, less recoil
that way. You could also add a breako recoil reducer in the butt to further help with recoil. One thing though
she is going to be VERY sure she knows how to handel the gun, take off the safety, how to load and unload. And
most of all how to shoot the darn thing. If she was near me when I had the barrel shortned I'd have it threaded for
chokes and put a IC choke in it and go out in the country and have her shoot some tin cans and old milk cartons
filled with water at various ranges with light target loads so she gets a feel for what's going on and the light
loads won't scare the heck out of her. But she sould try a couple of rounds fo full power as the last shots so
she knows what that is like also.

Remington makes a youth model 1100 in 20 gauge that I have as a "girl gun" for first time ladies to shoot, don't
know if it's also made in 12 but the 20 might not be a bad idea either, but probably not with buckshot. Too small
a shot size and pellet count in a 20 I'd guess.

And who knows she might like shotguning enough she might need a modified choks for upland game birds and full for
waterfowling. Pheasent does taste pretty good and so does grouse.

Just my thoughts.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kory:
Thanks everyone, for the great info. I have a Remington 721 in 30-06 she can shoot to get an idea of the recoil. I was going to have her shoot it anyway, but I never thought a 30-06 would stop a bear, but I guess it does (a black bear).

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An 06 with a 180 or 220 grain Round Nose will take down a pretty good sized bear. A 6.5 mm anything that will take a 160 grain bullet will also do wonders on a bear. It will penetrate like one could not believe, yet it is much milder on the recoil. So a 6.5 x 55 or a 260 Rem would also not be a bad choice considering this is a petite shooter you are speaking about.

Cheers

Buy her the bear book by Stephen Herrero (?) and a can of bear spray. His book dispels alot of myths, is packed with facts that are backed up with studies, and it also covers in some extent defense against attacks under various situations. He discusses protection guns, including pistols, rifles, shotguns, and spray. He covers calibers, effectiveness, shot placement (not what some might expect), and shooting conditions that are likely. He suggests that unless you are an expert pistol shooter that they are very ineffective (a griz will accelerate faster than any land animal, and comes in fast and low at 30+ mph--you don't have much time here!). I've been shooting pistols for 20 yrs, and often carry my spray instead of my sig. For me, tent time is when I really appreciate having a pistol (if attacking a tent, I suspect that the bear might just have a SPICY burrito, as it will be hard to get that spray on anything but yourself!).

The most important thing by far that Herrero discusses is how to avoid danger. Staying 50+ nights a year in a tent, most of them in griz country, I have never had a dangerous encounter w a griz. If you are heads up and know how to handle yourself (sign, proper camp precautions, etc), bears will cause very few problems. ie If you catch fish, eat, and sleep in the same clothes than I don't want to be in a tent with you no matter what gun you brought! Of course, luck always plays a role...

By the way, I know of two people in this area who were saved from a serious ass-chewing by gizzlies this last summer alone (one a woman near Big Sky and a cyclist near Jackson). Both suffered minor injuries but were able to drive the bears off. edit: both were saved by bear spray.

Unless she will be spending alot of time out-of-doors, she probably needs to worry more about cattle on the road than bears in the woods.

http://www.outdoorsdirectory.com/products/bear_attacks.htm

Agree with WyoJoe. A .30/30 with the heaviest bullets for it is plenty from 10 to 30 yards. If she could handle the .45/70 recoil, then she would be better of with this one. But she could probably shoot the .30/30 mush faster and accurately.

The .30-06 is better, specially with bullets around 200 grains.

quote:

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Originally posted by prm56:
She needs pepperspray,a good attitude, and a fat boyfriend who can't run fast..---p

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ROFLMAO! All she has to be able to do is outrun him, not the bear!

On a serious note, she needs to learn how to be proficient with a weapon, what ever she chooses. I agree with the others, she wont fair well if she isnt good with it. So she needs to become an Annie Oakley real quick.

I would suggest a 300 savage or a 7X57. Both rounds are loaded at lower pressures than an 06 (which may be a bit much for a petite non-shooter) so their felt recoil is quite mild and yet their power is still considerably better than a 30-30 or 35 remington.

In Kory's first post he mentioned a 10/22 fit her well. Several have mentioned the 44 magnum. Ruger makes the Deerfield Carbine with detachable 4 round magazine and has the exact dimensions of a 10/22.
My 2 cents worth.

I would suggest she get a dog,on three occasions during the night a bear tried to get my back door open,but my dog barked and woke me up by the time I got the door open the bear was gone and reflecting back on it,it was my fault because I had poured grease from a skillet about 40ft from the door.Gun I would probably go with a shotgun rem.1100 with slugs. w/regards

12 ga 3" slugs.

The picture just posted should give everyone something to think about. More of us would wish for a 458Lott or maybe a 600NE than could handle either.

Someone recommended the 6.5x55 which has proven that heavy old fashioned roundnoses at medium speed are effective out of proportion to the tables. In that school of thought, I would consider a 358 Winchester in a quick lever action. The Browning is on the top of my list because the box mag allows pointy bullets, if you decided to try new-fangled stuff.

Even a better book is Bear Attacks the Untold Truth. This books gives a much better idea why bears attack and how to defend oneself.

Another .02 worth......

I've never met a "petite" lady that could find unity with a pump gun, they don't have enough reach for the most part.

Everything about this is a trade off, weight, managability, effectiveness, etc etc., and it will all boil down to how well the gal handles herself, far more than what she is carrying. First objective is to avoid the problem in the first place. I think a dog would be a good idea. I think a short and fairly light gun is called for else it will not be within her reach when it is needed. With practice she might find utility with a bolt or levergun, or perhaps a SxS. I do not believe that having a gun she cannot or will not practice with frequently serves the purpose, case in point being 12 ga 3" anything. Hell, I won't even shoot those things with a smile on my face and I'm not petite.

I put off commenting on this a bit because I have worked with ladies that fit the description and have seen what they will and will not put up with, and what they can be effective with. I do realize there are tiny gals out their that can and do shoot very heavy recoiling weapons and grin afterwards, but they are a distinct minority.

My suggestion would be to find the action type and weight combination she finds acceptable, then go look for the cartridge. What is needed is something that will penetrate, and that doesn't necessarily require massive powder charges. Hardcast and heavy pistol bullets can auger thru a lot of meat and bone, as can heavy for caliber RN designs from the 6.5 and 7mm bores. High velocity is neither required or desired. Hardcast loads in a 45-70 will do the same if carrying enough weight, again, high-vel is not required.

I think the approach to take here is to explore what the gal will snuggle up with, then pair it with the proper ammo. There are a lot of options but she will be the one in the pickle if the need should arise.

Sometime back I got involved in this discussion on another forum, the question being something to the effect, "what would you use to stop a griz when the distance is measured in feet, not yards". My response then, as know, fitting my experience and comfort zone, 12 Ga double, #1 buck. It is a very precisely defined scenario, there will barely be time for a second shot in any case, and I know full well how deadly buskshot is when you can smell the breath of your antagonist. Many ponder this scenario and I think wrongly contruct that they will have time for aimed/repeat shots. I think that is wrong in regards to a surprise attack, and note that some in Africa use shotguns when pursuing wounded DG at close quarters. I've read that many of them use birdshot, a testimony to the flesh grinding trauma that load will visit at 15' or less. Having killed hogs with birdshot I will attest to it's effectiveness, though I would not suggest it for bear.

Maybe you'll get to aim, maybe not. Maybe you'll get a second shot, maybe not. The devil is in the details you won't get to consider before events begin to unfold.
JMO

Kel-Tec 40 S&W folding carbine...the 16 inch bbl gives it the velocity and power of a 10MM 5 inch handgun. It wieghs 3.5 lbs and uses glock magazines with 12 capacity. Absolutely reliable and folds into 16 inches for carrying with a full mag in place. Deploys to ready in battery in 1 sec. Alternate 180 gr FMJs with Gold Dots. It's simple to learn 4 three shot taps. This is simply the best back country survival weapon available and can be had for under $300 if you shop around.

A lever gun makes a lot of sense for her, light wt. quick handling & reasonably good stopper w/ heavy .30-30 or .35rem. loads. My only problem w/ long guns is you are likely to have it leaning against a tree rather than in your hands. I would also carry a compact 4"-5" rev. in .44mag or .45colt loaded w/ 300gr LFP @ 1000fps. Managable & deep penetrating. In fact, this would be a good rev./rifle combo, shooting the same ammo in each.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kory:
Thanks everyone, for the great info. I have a Remington 721 in 30-06 she can shoot to get an idea of the recoil. I was going to have her shoot it anyway, but I never thought a 30-06 would stop a bear, but I guess it does (a black bear).

Regards,
Kory

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Why not a Browning BLR in .308 or larger caliber. Browning BLR Have the stock cut to fit her and add a C&H Research mercury insert to help with the recoil and balance the rifle after having the stock cut. This would be a great combination for any Black Bear with 180 gr. Barnes TSX or 200 gr. Nosler Partition bullets. Forget any handgun. In my 30+ years in law enforcement I have found out that people under stress do not shoot handguns well no matter how good a handgun shot they are. Lawdog

Ruger Mini-14, good 20 round mags, and Win. PSP bullets. That's what my wife carries when we are out in the Black bear boonies, except her's is a Ruger GB model. Light weight, light recoil, handy to carry, easily acquired target, and lots of cartridges! Plus, she likes to practice with it as it does not beat her up.

Or, if your friend has the money, a Bushmaster AR-15 carbine, same mags and cartridges. And, again lots of practice. The cost of surplus .223 ammo will also allow her to practive without it costing her a ton of bucks.

JMHO. L.W.

Being a gal she has another problem when trying to prevent bear attacks. Several women have been attacked by bears while having their period. Bring this to her attention as in some of the attacks it seems to have been the trigger.

Just out of curiousity, and having no bear experiance myself, would a .357Mag revolver be out of the question to handle a black bear (or a brown bear) in an emergency? Many woman can easily handle this calibur, while a 44Mag has too much recoil for the majority of women. How about 45ACP?

I'm just wondering since logically it would be handier for a woman to bring a revolver, rather than lugging a rifle around. In other words, she might end up leaving a rifle back at home because of "size", while straping on a handgun, or having one in a "fannypack" would be more convenient. But then maybe I'm wrong!

An old saying in Alberta is that an American was stopped at the border with a .44 Mag. handgun strickly against our gun laws. When he told the Custom Officer that he intended it for bear defense the answer was to first cut off the end of the barrel.
"Why?" the American asked., "so I can draw it faster?"
The reply was " After you shoot the bear and it rams that gun up your ass it won't hurt as much if the front sight has been removed"

Erik, a .357mag would be better than your fingernails, and in cool hands w/ the right load, it would put down a bear, I don't think it would turn a determined charge though.
The "funny" story about handguns being ineffective against a bear attack, always make me laugh, but if that's all you had you are in much better shape than running, using your hands or playing dead.
BTW, I would also pass on the .45acp, not enough penetration, maybe a 10mm w/ JFP? I have friend in Montana that carries a Glock 27 or Taurus .41mag while out fishing. I carry a Ruger .45colt when packing out meat.

Hello;
I see Herrero has gotten a scarier looking picture for his latest edition. Must be to help sales, but having said that, you can't beat the information in the book. My own view on Bear deterrrant is, the older I get, the less I worry about it. Maybe that's a poor attitude, but I try to anticipate problems and prevent them and I have never had a problem in 30+ years. Not being allowed a hand gun, I usually keep a verry short barreled .303 Br. nearby loaded with 180 grn. rd.nosed bullets on my saddle or close by, when I remember it. Previously, in my paranoid days, I had a sawed off 12gauge loaded alternately with slugs and 00 Buck shot . Either, I'm sure would be adequate for any situation.
Grizz

12ga 870 W/18" bbl slugs!!!

I have an old stevens bolt action 12 Ga that has been modified to 19" barrel and iron sights added and with slugs this thing is superbly accurate to 25 yards.....holds two down and one up.....
I too agree with a shotgun and slugs.