Kory,
Check out a Marlin 30-30 Spykhorn model.
It has 16" barrel, and shorter LOP. Should work
ok for petit person.
Also, get the bear spray.

In theory(admittedly that's all it is) I would think a Remington M7600 parkerized with either oiled wood or laminated stocks in .35 Whelen would be awesome. I might have the barrel mag na ported for reduced muzzle jump, a good recoil pad, and zeroed with 250 or 275gr. bullets. Trajectory isn't an issue as it's a self defense gun. I'd have it fitted with a Williams receiver sight(ghostring perhaps?) and a high visiblity front sight. I'd have at least one spare 4 round magazine on me or maybe even a 10 round. I've never hunted/shot bears before so this is just opinion. I'd say though that for close range bears, it'd do the job.

No flame intended toward anyone so PLEASE don’t take it that way but before believing that buckshot would be effective on bears one should read the following. Buckshot On Dangerous Game Why would anyone trust buckshot on a animal that has larger, tougher skeletal frame and muscle mass than a Leopard is beyond me. I have attended to many autopsies where buckshot was used on a man and seeing what buckshot does AFTER entering the human body is a lesson in deflection. Buckshot on humans works - buckshot on dangerous game is a bad bet.

As far as bear spray goes the book is not in on that issue yet. Most any LEO can relate stories of MACE or pepper spray failing miserably on people. It’s been proven to attract bears, ineffective in a number of cases(Just last year a boy was attacked by a Brown Bear because he left a bit of food in his tent. The camp counselors emptied TWO cans of bear spray in the bears face at close range with no effect.) for me to put my faith in a can of pepper spray. Lawdog

Being a life long resident of Montana I can say that she does not need anything for bear defence. The bears around most of the state are so damn skidish that she should concider herself very lucky if she even gets to see one. When a bear around here sees a human they take off so fast you would think you lit their tail on fire. Giving someone a firearm (shotgun, rifle or handgun) who has not been around firearms very much is a BAD idea. She will be more dangerous to herself and the people around her than any bear will be. IMHO the best thing to do would be give her a lesson about the do and don't of living in bear country and have her take a good camera because if she is very quick she may be able to take a picture of the bear as it runs away.

MtElkHunter,

With all due respect, that has not been my experience living in Montana. Just last summer we were up in a camp site at Glacier National Park, and there were plenty of bears. Two of them ran into the camp site and game control had to be called. It was a moma bear and her cub, and she was pretty pissed. I realize that camp sites attract bears, but these two (among others I've seen) didn't seem to be in any hurry to run away from us.

Kory

Considering the legal ramifications of actually shooting a grizzly in Montana, I would recommend a 12 guage w/ heavy three inch loads of lead 2's or BB's. At the distance where shooting the bear won't put you in jail (<15 feet) that load will turn it's head into jelly. She could practice with trap loads to get a feel for the shotgun without developing a flinch. Now that I think about it, any 12 guage load that would kill a duck would easily kill a bear at point blank range.

Pete

Black bear are timid. All you need is pepper spray and wear little bells. The bells will scare most black bears away. If you run across a more aggressive black bear that the bells don't scare off--then just a little pepper spray is all that is needed. This is for black bears. If you see some grizz scat in the area--leave immediately. They are another story. Even just a small pile of grizzly scat--get out at once. How do you tell grizz scat from black bear scat? Well grizz scat smells like pepper and has little bells in it.

Mtelkhunter you sound like you have been reading to much of the Anit gun bullshit. With just a little training she well be more then capable of defending herself and others. A light weight carbine would just be about right for her.

I am about as anti anti-hunter as a person can get. So saying I read too much anti-hunting is pure BS. I stand my what I say about black bears in Montana. The exception is the two parks (glacier and Yellowstone) because there is a whole different set of rules there because you are dealing with park animals that are very comfortable around humans and you can’t legally take a firearm into the parks anyway so that is a mute point. Blackies in the rest of the state are hunted and they are very afraid of humans. I have had some young bears come right next to my house and if you walk outside and say boo they take off like you hit them in the ass with a cattle prod. I spent on average 35 days a year big game hunting and at lease another 35 days fishing and hiking in Montana in some very remote places and have NEVER had a problem bear. The idea that there is a bear behind every bush just waiting to jump out and eat you is so funny it is laughable! Weather and bugs are a much bigger thing to worry about. You have a much bigger chance of being run over by some crazy driver than being hurt by any wild animal. There are more people killed in one year by horses than have ever been killed by bears. Maybe she had better pack a gun for those dangerous horses!

Seriously there is not a problem with bears in Montana and I still say other than the parks she most likely will not even see a bear.

So do you ever carry a gun into the woods when your not hunting?

I send alot of time outdoors doing various things. The only times I carry a gun when I am not hunting is when I am riding horses, going out to do some shooting or sometimes if I am going fishing and I am going where there will be snakes. I have went backpacking for weeks at a time in the wilderness areas where there are blacks and griz and never carried a firearm. The only time I carried was when we used the horses. The darn horses have a habit of getting themselves in trouble. I have a carried a handgun way more times in town (CWP) than I ever have in the woods. You are ALOT safer in the woods than you are in town and you are pretty save in town.

I too have spent weeks back packing to in bear country the western states plus Ak. I have always carried. I have never had bear trouble.

I have never had a house fire but I have smoke detectors and fire extishers in the house also. I haven't had to use my emergency matches and fire starter yet but I still carry them. Just as with any satey equipment it doesn't do you a bit of good if you leave it at home.

One can go his whole life and never need safety supplies. But then if one does he does.

You can play the odds if you want but for me I like being prepared. If it would be two or four legged varmits I chose to go armed.

Just remember that until it was surpassed sometime in the mid '80's, the largest grizzly bear ever killed was taken with a .22 short. True story.

Mmmm...this thread is missing something

Oh ya! Wheres Gatehouse???

quote:

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I too have spent weeks back packing to in bear country the western states plus Ak. I have always carried. I have never had bear trouble.

I have never had a house fire but I have smoke detectors and fire extishers in the house also. I haven't had to use my emergency matches and fire starter yet but I still carry them. Just as with any satey equipment it doesn't do you a bit of good if you leave it at home.

One can go his whole life and never need safety supplies. But then if one does he does.

You can play the odds if you want but for me I like being prepared. If it would be two or four legged varmits I chose to go armed.

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ME TOO. I have had bear trouble(Black Bear) at my house not to mention the few times while camping/hunting in Alaska that we have had bears rummage around our campsite(s) while we were off hunting/fishing. At our house we had one tearing the siding off my barn to get at the animals inside in the middle of the night. At 420+ pounds he wasn't starving and he didn't run when we turned on the flood lights. When I stepped outside he bristled up, popped his teeth and I put a 220 gr. .348 bullet through his heart. In a lifetime of hunting bears(took my first one at age 12) I have learned number of things but the most important is, don’t trust bears to do what you expect and always be prepared when in bear country. Lawdog

Lawdog I didn't mention the times I have had bear trouble around the house more then one has been chased off with a load of bird shot. I thought we were talking about camping.
Thats why a loaded shotgun with bird shot sits in the house and a loaded centerfire sits next to it case they do not understand the first time.
No they do and can cause many propblems I know of at least 5 off the top my head attacks here in Northern Wis in the last 10 years by blk bears. I have heard of at least a couple more times bears have stalked people out in the woods why they didn't attack who knows both times the person was unarmed.
If any one wants to go around beliveing a antis BS that bears are wonderful and wouldn't hurt a flea more power to them I much prefer a firearm to such thoughts.

quote:

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Lawdog I didn't mention the times I have had bear trouble around the house more then one has been chased off with a load of bird shot. I thought we were talking about camping.
Thats why a loaded shotgun with bird shot sits in the house and a loaded centerfire sits next to it case they do not understand the first time.
No they do and can cause many propblems I know of at least 5 off the top my head attacks here in Northern Wis in the last 10 years by blk bears. I have heard of at least a couple more times bears have stalked people out in the woods why they didn't attack who knows both times the person was unarmed.
If any one wants to go around beliveing a antis BS that bears are wonderful and wouldn't hurt a flea more power to them I much prefer a firearm to such thoughts.

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Wasn't that long ago that those Brown Bears up in Alaska killed/ate that guy that said they would never hurt him. That they were his friends. Killed him and his girl friend. Just last year my son killed a large Black Bear that had developed a bad habit of tracking people. The one time I had him track me and saw him doing it(he followed me over half a mile) I was under gunned(a Ruger No. 1 in .22 Hornet) to take on a bear of his size. He tried the same thing with my son but sonny boy was carrying his .338 WM and settled the issue. Lawdog

Lawdog you need to read the Book Bear Attacks the Untold Truth. Written by a guy out of BC. He talks a lot about Blk bears their stalking people. It well open your eyes to bear behavior or just comfirmed what you allready know.

Maybe I like so much because it backs up a lot of what I have seen in bear behavior over the years.

Boilerroom

I'm right here

Bears have aways been an interesting topic to me, and bear defense is also very interesting to me.

I've spent ALOT of time around bears, zillions of black bears, and quite a few grizzlies.

The topic of bear defense always seems to draw huge responses on all internet forums. People have thier opinions, and want to talk about them.

I will tell you rigt now, the best bear defense is your brain. Learn how to avoid bears, keep a clean camp, how to be observant in the bush. Stay away from raven gatherings, and remember to look ahead of your postion, to where you intend to go- Keep an eye on possibel areas that may harbour bears with an angry disposition.

I woud REALLY reccomend Gary Sheltons books. He's a bear expert, I'm just a guy that has been around bears alot, and killed a few, too. I would reccomend Shelton WAY before Herrertos books. Shelton places humans #1, and bears #2.

The idea of bear defense is often a hot topic for people that are going on a hunt (maybe guided) to the wilds of Canada or Alaska. Many of them have ittle or no experience with bears.

I recall reading a few years ago (maybe here on AR) about a fellow who was going on a guided hunt, and said somethign aong these lines."I wil have my .300 Weatherby for hunting, and I intend to sleep with my .44 Mag revolver, but I was thinking about bringing along a defender shotgun with alternating 00 and slugs for close quarter bear defense"

And he was SERIOUS!! He never thought about who would pack allthis shit up the mountain!!!

For the original question, for the woman, I'd say the same as I say to everyone- A gun that you can shoot well is better than a bigger one you cannot.

In this case, it's resonably easy simple. If she is comfortable with a 30-06, then that solves 99.9% of the problems. A 30-06 or a .308 with good bullets (think X or Partition etc) will handle just about any bear if the buelt goes into the proper place, and that would include Montana grizzlies.

It's more important to get ONE or TWO shots off wwith a adequate cartridge, in the right place, than it is to get 30 rounds off in a hurry with a .223, all of which may fail, unless the brain is hit.

Make sure she finds the right gun, (in 30-06/.308/ .270) that she can mount and shoot quickly and accurately and that she practices with it.

Frankly, uness someone is proficient with the firearm, it's not a great help

On to other things...

When bear defense comes up, the shotgun often arises.

This is one of the areas that I have explored quite a bit, specifcally buckshot and slugs.

Lawdog posted a link that I completely agree with.

Why does one use shot over a single projectile?

It is to increase hit potential. That's why we use shot on birds.

When dealing with a charging bear, you of course want to increase hit potential, right? But yo also want the projectile to have a real effect, right?

Here is what I have found...

Buckshot has pretty poor penetration. Foster slugs have better penetration. Brenneke slugs ahve really good penetration.

At longer ranges (say 40 yards) the pattern for buckshot is quite wide, and there is a pretty good chance that only one or 2 pellets wil hit the head or other vital areas. And they are not guaranteed to penetrate properly.

At closer ranges, like 10 yards (where you would be DEFINITELY be dropping the hammer at a charging bear) The pattern for buckshot doesn't open that wide, maybe a few inches, at that range.

The whole point of buckshot was to increase hit potential..But if you woud miss with the shot, you would miss with a slug.

SO, since we have practiced a bit, and can hit stuff with our slugs at 10 yards, woudn't you be better off using a Brenneke that will absolutely plow through thick muscel and bone, the same stuff that buckshot will be questionable on?

I've done a bunch of penetration tests with Foster slugs, Brennekes and buckshot, and it is amazing how incredebly poor buckshot penetrates compared to slugs, and the Brennekes will perform like an X bullet

PS, I have seen a few bears shot with shotguns, and been tols of a few accounts from very reliable sources, too, so I am not completely uninforemd about performance. FWIW, I saw a black bear die instantly wiht a buckshot load to the head by a farmer, but my opinions do not change.


.

I think Gatehouse has the best advice, and if keeping a clean camp etc doesn`t work you can always yell or just throw a couple of rocks at most black bears and that usually sends them running for the next county. BTW most black bear that are predatory are males and in remote areas, they are also very very rare!

Another vote for the Ruger 44 Mag auto carbine.

quote:

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Originally posted by Gatehouse:
I woud REALLY reccomend Gary Sheltons books. He's a bear expert, I'm just a guy that has been around bears alot, and killed a few, too. I would reccomend Shelton WAY before Herrertos books. Shelton places humans #1, and bears #2.

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Gatehouse,

Is there any one of Sheltons "survival guides" that you would reccommend? I've seen that he has several.

I've got 3 of his books, I keep buying them when taking the BC ferries.

I better look through them to see which woud be the best. I think you shoud buy them all, thoug...

I'd like to buy every hunting and animal related book available one day! But until I win the Lottery it's not going to happen...

In other words, if you could advise me which you think is best, I'd appreciate it!

Well put, Gatehouse. That needed to be said, and you did it quite eloquently. The SD of buckshot, birdshot, and Forster-type slugs is abysmal. The sabot type is the only way to go in a shotgun.

I won't even dignify the .223 suggestion with a comment.

Since everyone has an opinion about bear defense, here's mine. I've had no real bear experience, other than occasionally bumping into them in the Smokies while hiking. But I'd get Brockman to shave as much weight and length as is possible off of a Guide Gun in .45-70, and stoke it with Garrett or equivalent flat-nosed bullets.

Pertinax

Erik

They are all very good reading, and not too pricey- About $35 each I htink.

I suppose I would get his third book ( I think) Bear Attacks II Myth vs Reality.

It's got the most updated info and alot of stuff about conservation vs preservation.

Pepper spray might be O.K. but the best repellent is the 12gauge pump gun loaded with brenneke slugs.