I'm looking for a documented case where it can be demonstrated that a particular cartridge was inadequate for a particular game animal. Poor shot placement doesn't count of course. I'm looking for cases like bullets recovered that failed to penetrate to the vitals ect. I know that most cases where game is shot with an inadequate cartridge there is no proof it was the cartridge's fault as the is no body from which to recover a bullet, but I'm sure there's SOME stories out there...

I'll stick out my neck here!

I saw a 25-06 with 120gr Partitions fail miserably on a huge(Alaska Yukon) bull moose. Both shots were quartering away (rear angle) and quite simply were not making it to the boiler room. After an extended search it was finished with a broadside shot from a 30-06.

I suspect with something like a Barnes X the results may have been different, but the amount of tissues damage produced by the 25-06 was pathetically small for such a large animal.

I think the smaller the caliber and the larger the game the more critical bullet selection becomes.

With a 25-06 I would say a rear forward quartering shot is poor shot placement on bull moose.

A rear quartering shot on a moose with anything is a very marginal shot at best.

I don't know about documented but...

A friend of mine went to Zim a month before I did, to the same place. He claimed that his wife killed a Giraff with a 257Wby.

His PH told me later that the 100gr 257 failed to get all the way thru the skin and the Ph killed it with a 460Wby.

sounds pretty inadaquete to me...

I shot a whitetail of app 170 pounds quartering to me with a 270Win and a 130 Nosler Ballistic Tip. The Bt exploded on a rib, throwing shrapnel into the left lung, but no penetration past a coupla inches. A second shot as he ran off finished him, but the first shot was a failure that caused me to quit using BTs.

troy

Kind of an interesting post IMO.

I guess any bullet/weapon combo can do funny sometimes, but I have seen the following things which to me are choice of not enough GUN, meaning I don't think a bullet change would have made a difference.

First was when I was first learning to really hunt whitetails, it was in my Archery Only phase of hunting, which lasted too long, but I was young and naive, so there ya go. On this weekend, a fellow was having a terrible time seeing any deer, and I had been seeing a bunch. It wasn't time for the rut, so I took the guy into one of my stands set up for bowhunting. I hunted in a portable about 30 yards away from this guy. Several small bucks and a half dozen does spilled down the trail from the other side of my 'guided hunter's' tree. He shot one of the big fat does as she was dead broadside to his position. All the deer broke at the shot and cleared the area. I had a habit of really staying in the stand a long time after the shot in those days, still probably stay longer than most, but this was probably due to me be an archery guy only then, so I waited about 20 minutes, was planning on waiting on 30 at least, but the guy started 'shouting quietly' at me to ask what we should do. We got down at that point.

No blood anywhere, no hair, no bone, nothing. I could see exactly where the deer was standing, and I knew where the deer went. No blood any where along the trail which led to a nearby field. As we neared the field I told the fellow, let's ease off, there will be another member hunting the field this morning, and it was still early, so let's back out.

A shot rang out just then, and then 2 more. A little pause and one more. The net was that the guy shooting was a really experienced hunter, and killed 3 deer in that span of just a minute. The first shot put the first doe down. The second shot hit a deer who then just stood there, and the third shot put a deer down. He took a minute as the second deer he hit was just standing there, and not running but had it's head down, and was just barely moving at all, he put a finisher in--shot 4.

The first deer was the same fat doe the guy I was 'guiding' had shot. The fellow that killed this deer hit it dead on the shoulder with and 308, and it dropped instantly. When we approached the deer we could see a huge spot, on the opposite side of where the killing shot hit, and well back from the exit of the killing shot. It looked like it had been hit with a 3 inch plate just smacking the side of the deer. I believe this was a case of a 243 not having enough punch when it hit the rib on the near side. The bullet was a Nosler Partition. There was maybe a 1/2" of penetration, but it was basically a big dished out wound, that wasn't going to kill the deer.

There was nothing but grass between the first guy and this deer. I am confident, having witnessed the shot from a slight offset and angle, that this deer was hit right in the ribcage wwithout anything being contacted in between, and despite being a big doe, was one of the things that convinced me that a 243 wasn't enough for a deer, despite the millions it has clearly killed very effectively.

I have also seen a broadside shot on a big hog in Texas that just had zero penetration, It was a 25.06 with a Corelokt, 110 grains I think. I finished this hog with a 270 and a 150 gr SGK, and this 25.06 just went in a about 2", not even phasing this hog.

Maybe just too much speed with too light a bullet, but neither of these bullets are known (IME) as being lightly constructed.

I'm going to look for my Flame Proof coveralls

I was 10 metres behind a friend of mine when he put a 180 grainer solid (militar ball) into a charging water buffalo weighting 1,300 kilos and stop it 5 metres away from him with his 300 winnie.

We were 5 very scared witness

L

quote:

Originally posted by DTala:
I don't know about documented but...

A friend of mine went to Zim a month before I did, to the same place. He claimed that his wife killed a Giraff with a 257Wby.

His PH told me later that the 100gr 257 failed to get all the way thru the skin and the Ph killed it

troy

IF a PH let a client shoot a Giraffe with a 257 Roy, I would think he was putting his credentials in question at a minimum, and I truly don't know, but maybe breaking/fracturing a game law, as I know their are caliber minimums for some African game species, don't know what they are, but I could see that a giraffe was an animal that had one......

but, good post as I definitely think this would be a case of not enough GUN!

Not sure if this is really what you are asking, but I've seen a lot of deer shot and lost with a 22LR on crop deprivation permit. Makes me want to puke, but I guess ethics don't apply when your bottom line is on the line.

Be present when enough stuff is shot and you will see some strange things. I've seen a .222 Rem with 50 grain FMJ turkey loads poleaxe a whitetail doe shot in the shoulder at 50 yards. (Bullet deflected and severed the spinal cord). On the other end of the spectrum have watched a wounded gemsbok continue to soak up a couple 300 grain Noslers out of a 375H&H at 50 yards until it bled out standing on it's feet.

But I think the most 'inadequate' load I've ever witnessed was several instances of 9mm handguns attempting to dispatch busted up and flopping deer at the scenes of car/deer crashes. I've personally seen what should have been good enough hits to the head made at under ten feet to an 80 pound deer with busted legs that required additional shots. Made me really appreciate the early years of my LEO career when I was issued a .357 Magnum.

I'm also not much of a fan of 00 buckshot after an experience chasing s deer from the scene of a crash through a field shooting it (several times) with 00 buck at 35-50 yards. It had two broken rear legs and was dragging itself along about as fast as I could go too.

I guess I do every fall according to some on this site. I shoot deer with a 22-250!

I watched a local police officer shoot a big black bear that had been hit by a car trying to finish it off. He emptied his 9mm pistol into the bear's chest and with each shot the bear continued dragging himself forward using his front legs. He finally expired about 5 or 6 minutes later.

Also was witness to my dad shooting a big boar hog in the chest twice with 00 Buck from about 15 yards with little effect. The dust flew off his shoulder and he just ran off. Found him 300 yards away later by following buzzards as there was no blood trail. Virtually all of the pellets had failed to penetrate the shoulder.

I have never hunted with anything smaller than a .270 but had some really bad bullet failures with "Remington 140grn Extended Range Boat Tails". Had one explode into shrapnel on a quartering on whitetail hit in the shoulder. Also shot a big texas boar hog 3 times in the shoulder region before finally killing him with a shot to the neck. Every round that hit shoulder just disintegrated.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
I guess I do every fall according to some on this site. I shoot deer with a 22-250!

I'm guessing you aren't hunting deer in Colorado as that would be illegal, right?

"Rifles using center fire cartridges of .24 caliber or larger, having expanding bullets of at least seventy (70) grains in weight..."

I killed a horse with a .22 CB cap. Does that count?

I have taken rear quartering shots on moose with the 416Rem using a 350X (old style)and have also done it with a 375Ultra using the 300grain TSX bullet. The 375 Ultra was a Texas heart shot and it dropped like it was shot between the eyes, while the 416 shot moose folded after a few wobbly steps.

My best buddy has done it with a 225 Partition out of his 338Ultra, but things did not go quite so well. The problem with the Partition is by the time they got to the boiler room they were just wadcutters (didn't do much damage). Fortunately his moose turned broadside for a "last look" and took one through the lungs.

The rear angle shot is an effective tool in the right hands, but it does take careful placement. As is the Texas heart shot.

quote:

Originally posted by DC Roxby:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
I guess I do every fall according to some on this site. I shoot deer with a 22-250!

I'm guessing you aren't hunting deer in Colorado as that would be illegal, right?

"Rifles using center fire cartridges of .24 caliber or larger, having expanding bullets of at least seventy (70) grains in weight..."

Nope Oklahoma. 55 grains is all that is needed. Haven't drawn a deer tag in CO yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
I'm looking for a documented case where it can be demonstrated that a particular cartridge was inadequate for a particular game animal.

I've seen #3 buckshot from a 20 gauge at about 40 yards, quartering from the rear of a whitetail buck. Hopeless.

A friend found a white Pit Bull in the woods that had been shot behind the ear with a .45 ACP. There was a dog dish with some food in it, and the empty shell casing was on the ground next to it. It must have knocked him out, and he was left for dead.

The bullet went through and broke is right jaw. He was eating and chewing on a 2x4 when I saw him the morning that my friend found him.

One tough little bastage.

Many years ago (1976, I think), I used a customized Ruger Blackhawk 357 Magnum revolver with 6.5-inch barrel on my first whitetail handgun hunt. I used Remington 158-grain jacketed hollow point factory ammunition.

I shot a whitetail buck at three yards, live weight 150-175 pounds. He was unaware of my existence before the shot, walking slowly and feeding.

First shot was broadside at junction of spinal column and scapula. Deer dropped like a stone -- then jumped to its feet.

Second shot missed the barn door. How could the animal not have died instantly?

Third shot, still at three yards broadside, high in the lungs. Deer dropped but was alive, struggling to rise.

Fourth shot, at inches, went at junction of left ear and eye socket.
***
During field dressing and subsequent butchering I located the two torso bullets because I wanted to know what the heck happened.

Bullet #1 cracked the spinal column but did not penetrate. It had expanded to become nearly flat while holding together. I believe the animal was dead after the shot but death would have taken time.

Bullet #3 penetrated only the near lung about three inches total. It, too, had expanded to become nearly flat while holding together.
***
Conclusions I reached were two:
1. Jacketed hollow point bullets are unsatisfactory for hunting at pistol range.

2. 357 Magnum is marginal for handgun hunting big game.
***
The following year I was hunting with one of my pair of Pasadena AutoMag 6.5-inch barrelled 44 AMPs.

Hope this helps.

I didn't witness it but have heard the story counless times from my dad. When he was guiding on a ranch in Mississippi in the early 80's.....he had a client using a .243 for deer, which was fine. However, my dad knew this property like the back of his hand and the blind this guy was hunting in was visited by a HUGE boar hog nearly every evening. My dad told the guy to make sure he didn't shoot that boar with that .243, because it's not enough gun. The guy said, "Oh no, I wouldn't even think about doing that. I'm only hunting for a good buck."

My dad was in a stand not too far away that afternoon, and heard a shot from the guy's stand. He figured he had shot a nice buck, so my dad went to pick the guy up. When my dad got there, the guy was grinning ear-to-ear and hollered...."Man, I just shot the biggest damn hog I've ever seen". My dad was not happy, that's for sure. Luckily my dad was carrying a S&W .44 mag, so they started following up the wounded pig.....which, of course, found the biggest thickest briar patch on the ranch to lay up in.

As my dad and the idiot hunter were tracking the boar, he busted out of the thicket and charged my dad and he put two 240 gr. JHP's in the boar's head at approximately 7 and 3 yards respectively. When they got it back to camp (and probably after my dad changed his underwear), they cleaned it and weighed it. The boar was 385 lbs. My dad said the gristle "shield" that covered the boar's front half was 2 inches thick. The guy's bullet was perfectly behind the shoulder, probably would have been a heart shot, except that it didn't penetrate the shield.

*Suggestion: don't shoot a hog much over 100 lbs. with a .243, unless it's in the head/neck.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
I'm looking for a documented case where it can be demonstrated that a particular cartridge was inadequate for a particular game animal.

I have been present when about 7 or 8 deer have been killed and upon field dressing and butchering, discovered shotgun slugs encapsulated around the shoulder. Also, one broadhead.

I think with many hunters, they are such a pessimistic bunch that the only time they'll believe something is if they see it for themselves. Other's personal accounts or witnessing of occurences won't cut it.

Good luck on your search for a documented case.

I was talking to a taxidermist friend yesterday at Wal-Mart. He told me without a doupt in nearly 25 years of skinning everything under the sun these three things are what he finds in the hide of the game he skins.

lead .22lr bullets
#4 #6 #9 whatever shotgun shot
and lastly.....broadheads

He said he has a small collection of the above in a desk drawer he has kept for years.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:

I think with many hunters, they are such a pessimistic bunch that the only time they'll believe something is if they see it for themselves. Other's personal accounts or witnessing of occurences won't cut it.

Good luck on your search for a documented case.

Pessemistic: no, poor grammar usage: yes. I was really asking for personal accounts not truy "documented" accounts. I've really enjoyed the resonses here. I posted this because I hear so many good cartridges being labled as inadequate that I wanted to hear soem sitiute s where some one could say for sure that a cartridge was inadequate. So far it seems that:

-25-06 can be inadequate for moose (quartering away)
- .243 and buckshot is inadequate for big hogs
- 9mm is inadequate on deer

I'm happy with that

Ted,

Your post reminds me.....when I shot my Eland back in 2003. I was hunting a particular old bull that we nick-named "limpy" because he had a slight limp when he walked. After I shot him and we were skinning him, we found the cause of his limp. Some asshole had shot him in the shoulder with a .22 lr from the county road that passed through the ranch. I don't quite understand why anyone, even a poacher, would do that.

When I was butchering NW Montana whitetail buck years ago I found a .35 cal. bullet in his neck. The bullet had mushroomed perfectly, but the copper jacket had separated from the lead core.

A membrane "sac" had completely enclosed the copper jacket. The lead core was lodged against a neck vertebrae. The neck muscles had completely healed and grown tight around the lead core. There was no discoloration of the muscles in the wound area or any obvious scarring on the outside of the neck. I would guess that the bullet had been there at least a year.

Well, I'll repeat another instance for you. 2 guys, including me, hunting on a hill. I'm more of an observer. He shoots a nice whitetail with a 243 at less than 100 yards. Shot appeared to hit right behind the shoulder from my view. He is an excellent shot with a rifle.

Buck ran off, crossed property line, 2 other hunters put it down after it made it roughly 200 yrds on the run. Other hunters kept the buck. 243 entry hole was perfect. The bullet escapes my memory...partition maybe.

Anyway, who knows if any other caliber or bullet would have done better.

I shot a mulie in the chest quartering to me at about 45 yards with a 140 AB from my 270. He bled from where I was aiming, i.e., shot placement was good. Don't know if the bullet went off course or not but he lived long enough to leave the valley and we tracked him for hours. My brother kept spotting him about 800 yards in front of us on the move as though nothing happened.

I don't know about inadequate calibers but I had a few learning experiences with inadequate bullets.

I would think anyone hunting dangerous game in Africa or up north for big bears, would make damn sure what they had was plenty adequate! When hunting animals that would like to stomp you or have you for and afternoon snack, there is no such thing as overkill!

Funny coming across this thread. I was talking to a guy Saturday who told me he killed an ancient deer this year and when he skinned him he found a broadhead in one shoulder, a 243 bullet in the rear loin , a 223 bullet in the jaw and shotgun pellets in the other shoulder.

I have seen two bison (one medium sized bull and an old cow) both shot to hell with 300 Win mags. In both cases 7 rounds were shot into the bison's chest and after about 45 minutes they finally died. It was disgusting to watch these animals suffer. Also seen two cow bison suffer after being hit with 338 Win mag. One heifer took a solid chest hit, we lost her in the herd and four hours later we "found" her again (meaning we were guessing and luckily correctly) she was finished with a 500. The initial 338 hit had actually scabbed over and it took sometime to find it. The second 338 deal was a quartering shot, which got one lung and the liver. A follow-up shot (aiming for the heart) broke the on side leg, deflected down, and sliced through the brisket not entering the chest. She staggered off on three legs and eventually laid down. The hunter did not want to waste anymore ammo so we waited for about an hour for her to pass away. We thought she had and approached at which time she attempted to get up and she was finished with a head shot from a 500.

I can go on with other bison/buffalo hunts, but see no point.

On the flip side I saw a bison calf (hunter considered it a big bull) taken with two shots from a 30-30 both in the chest. The little guy expired in a couple of minutes, but did go down quickly (after which he lay there and bled out).

I find this thread humorous and I'm sure I'll get flamed for my next comment but I never learned to keep my mouth shut............

I see this thread as an opportunity for everyone that has made a poor shot and doesn't have the "sack" to own up to it to just blame it on an "inadequate caliber" or a "bad" bullet.
I call...........


People need to own up to their mistakes and that is the bottom line of this thread.
A bigger "caliber" will not make you a better shot or a sure killer, you need to shoot them in the right place to take the life out of them quickly and humanely. Don't go blaming your poor shots on the illbegotten .243 or the fragmentatious cup and core bullets.
Now practice your shooting and go kill something!

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
A bigger "caliber" will not make you a better shot or a sure killer, you need to shoot them in the right place to take the life out of them quickly and humanely.
Now practice your shooting and go kill something!

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
I have seen two bison (one medium sized bull and an old cow) both shot to hell with 300 Win mags. In both cases 7 rounds were shot into the bison's chest and after about 45 minutes they finally died. It was disgusting to watch these animals suffer. Also seen two cow bison suffer after being hit with 338 Win mag. One heifer took a solid chest hit, we lost her in the herd and four hours later we "found" her again (meaning we were guessing and luckily correctly) she was finished with a 500. The initial 338 hit had actually scabbed over and it took sometime to find it. The second 338 deal was a quartering shot, which got one lung and the liver. A follow-up shot (aiming for the heart) broke the on side leg, deflected down, and sliced through the brisket not entering the chest. She staggered off on three legs and eventually laid down. The hunter did not want to waste anymore ammo so we waited for about an hour for her to pass away. We thought she had and approached at which time she attempted to get up and she was finished with a head shot from a 500.

I can go on with other bison/buffalo hunts, but see no point.

On the flip side I saw a bison calf (hunter considered it a big bull) taken with two shots from a 30-30 both in the chest. The little guy expired in a couple of minutes, but did go down quickly (after which he lay there and bled out).

Seems like something else was wrong with the 2 bison shot with the .300 Win. Mags. If each was shot 7 times in the chest, they would have been dead in no time.....not 45 minutes. I'm not calling you a liar, but maybe something was wrong with the ammunition choice or they were shooting too far back, or something else you and I are not aware of.

I shot a middle-aged bison bull (1200 lbs.) in 2007 with my .300 WSM. I was using Federal Premium Barnes MRX 180 gr. ammo and I put 2 solid shoulder shots on the bull (first was a little high) and he was down in less than a minute. Bled out in less than 5 minutes. I've got it on video.

Eland Slayer,

Not positive on the bullets used by the bull hunter. I recall they came out of a Remington factory ammo box, and they did not pass through, but he was hitting the lung area. It is possible that they were not penetrating deeply enough to do much damage. The cow was shot with 240gr Woodleigh PSP and several passed clear through the chest. She was shot seven times in the chest and one additional shot at the atlas joint which didn't work. She did lay down after shot number 5 if I recall correctly, after which the last three rounds were put into her (two chest one atlas joint). The bullets did tear her lungs up fairly well, I know I helped gut and skin her. This was a herd hunt so most of the shots have several minutes elapsed between them while the hunter was waiting for an opportunity for a clear shot. I have it on video. This particular hunter vowed never to hunt bison again after that (he also got to watch another mature cow soak up three solid hits from a 458 Win mag before being put down for good by a 500).

The funniest thing I ever saw (maybe not but it was funny) was a guy who shot an old bison bull in the head from about 70 yards with a 444 Marlin. The bullet bounced off the bulls forehead and hit another younger bull in the arse. The poor guy ended up paying for both bulls, and the guide killed both of the for him as I guess both of the decided the 444 Marlin just wasn't up to the task (guide used a 458 Win mag). I believe those 444 Marlin loads were 265gr Remington factory (not sure exactly on bullet weight, but that is what I recall the guy saying they were and they came out of a Remington factory ammo box).

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
The funniest thing I ever saw (maybe not but it was funny) was a guy who shot an old bison bull in the head from about 70 yards with a 444 Marlin. The bullet bounced off the bulls forehead and hit another younger bull in the arse. The poor guy ended up paying for both bulls, and the guide killed both of the for him as I guess both of the decided the 444 Marlin just wasn't up to the task (guide used a 458 Win mag). I believe those 444 Marlin loads were 265gr Remington factory (not sure exactly on bullet weight, but that is what I recall the guy saying they were and they came out of a Remington factory ammo box).

Haha.....wow. That sucks big time for the hunter.

I am not sure but it seems like a lot of bullets really fail badly . My son uses a 222 rem with 55 grain soft points to harvest game. He uses this calibre because he can shoot the gun well, off hand or from a rest. So far five deer, bears and cougar and all one shot kills from 20 to 150 yards. Shot placement is key, it is not the size of the gun so much it is knowing its limitations and only taking the proper shots. Small calibres are fine as long as you hit where you are aiming and not a shoulder bone. Mind you at 12 years old its time to step it up in calibres.

The Buffalo stories crack me up!
I have two nieces who have killed at least a half dozen cow Buffs on ranch shoots and their rifle of choice is a 25/06!
Both girls learned from watching other people who were not able to put a buff down so they decided to take base of the skull shots and it has worked many times for them. The rancher gets real excited when these girls show up cuz they know how to shoot and make it look easy, 175 yards shot bang flop. The rancher likes to tell the stories about the guys that show up shootin 416's and 458's and the countless shots and trailing it takes to get one down, you gotta just laugh.

one night way back when i did't know how pistols were supposed to work i was unloading a 22 cal relover after a night of shooting pidgens off pump jacks when they flew away. well i kept it in the cabnet over the washing machine,as i got to the third round it dischared in my hand the shot hit the bathtub right in the breadbasket.by now you are thinking dead tub but noooo.it lives to this day,however the pistol was cut up by my father-in-law when my wife told the story over coffie the next morning.moral of this is ratshot won't put a ulgy tub out of it's misery. i know it don't have nothing to do with the thread but somehow it's all i could think of. next time i think a 7mm or 30 cal would work better.Good Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
I find this thread humorous and I'm sure I'll get flamed for my next comment but I never learned to keep my mouth shut............

I see this thread as an opportunity for everyone that has made a poor shot and doesn't have the "sack" to own up to it to just blame it on an "inadequate caliber" or a "bad" bullet.
I call...........


People need to own up to their mistakes and that is the bottom line of this thread.
A bigger "caliber" will not make you a better shot or a sure killer, you need to shoot them in the right place to take the life out of them quickly and humanely. Don't go blaming your poor shots on the illbegotten .243 or the fragmentatious cup and core bullets.
Now practice your shooting and go kill something!

OTOH you don't see real cases of any standard cartidges like the good ol 270, '06 ect failing.

If I had any point to make with this thread at all, it would be the much beaten dead horse of shot placement over caliber.

There is no such thing as an inadequate caliber, only inadequate shot placement.