I am the shooting host of a new hunting televison show. We have video of big game being shot at ranges that are considered longer the normal. I am talking about ranges from 500 yds to 800 yds.The show will not be just about long range shooting but we will be including some in the show.

I would like any feed back you guys have on how you feel about this.

I have posted this question on other boards and got quite alot of response. It was very informative and I really appreciate it.

Thanks in advnce for your responses

John

I am friends with at least one long range shooter and I appreciate the skills involved, but I believe you will be doing hunters in general and the public's perception thereof a disservice if you put this on a general TV outdoor show type format.

I agree with the post above. What other types of hunting are you going to feature?

Please don't show that kind of stunt on TV.

I'm with Fatcat on this one.

Although I won't argue that there are both shooters and cartridges capable of consistantly making kills at these ranges, showcasing such shooting (not hunting) of game animals implies that such activities are ethical for those hunters with only moderate skills and equipment. Explaining that a 1.5 MOA rifle is a 10" MOA piece at 600 yards and that the effects of wind drift and drop are dramatic at those distances would be your minimum responsibility as a host. Limiting your format to only ethical, fair chase hunting practices are something to which everyone in your position should aspire if the sport we love is to continue to be accepted by the general public. Best of luck with your program.

John,
I feel that it would be a big mistake to show shots of that distance on TV. I know it takes a great deal of skill to make a killing hit at those distances. I also know that it is very easy to make a poor also. It would put all hunters in a bad light. Bryan

While I have nothing whatsoever against long range shooting of game,I think it's a REALLY bad idea to put it on TV.

You'll just be giving the anti's even more ammo against us.

I suggest you go ahead and show it,just don't say "Here's Jim Bob shooting an elk at 800 yards".People will watch whether the game is shot off the muzzle or at a mile.You just don't have to use the range as a selling point.

Brian.

John,I would be very interested in seeing that.Have you seen the Point Blank From Long Range video's?????????

I respect to everyone who posts here, but I will disagree with most here and say, If you have a capable person who can make the shot then let them shoot at whatever range. Anti-Hunters can find faults in ANY hunt on TV.
NOW, if you want to bash me go ahead, but I personally know people who can "kill" at 800 yards and I also know others that cant "kill" at 200 yards. Should I be the dictate who can shoot when, or even who can watch others shoot at different distances?

GTR

If you could stress the top quality equipment involved, the hours of practice and finding the right bullet - powder- primer - case combination, and the pitfalls and how wind, temperature, and altitude can affect those shots, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, that stuff is boring to all but the most dedicated, so I would lean towards keeping it off.
However, I personally would love to see it.

If you can show it in a "Don't try this at home" sense it might be okay.

Like OldFart said, if you can give some history on what it takes to make these shots, that is one thing, but if youare jsut trying to sell a particular rifle (ANYONE can make this shot with theis rifle and range finder) you're out of luck.

It is also possible that this would lend credence to the anti hunting crowd how claim that " hunters use high powered rifles and scopes to snipe at poor defenseless animals.)

I know that *I* could not make those shots, and I respect those that CAN, but I know what goes into cleanly taking shots like that. The general public (hunting or otherwise) do not.

Something to think about. MOST of us don't wish to put in the time and effort required to become proficient at LONG (350yds+)range shooting. Many of us tend to "blame" the equipment instead of the shooter, so we rush out to buy the latest super magnun that will kill just by coming close enough. I have just gone this very route with my youngest son. He went from a .308 to .270 to 7MM to .300WinMag. He now "knows" that next season he won't have to pass up that 500yd powerline shot. This has become a very hot subject in my house. I keep asking him to prove his ability at 500yds and he keeps saying to butt out, sooo... just yesterday I told him that he would not be welcome to hunt on the farm next season until he gets out on my range and puts up at 500yds. These are my opinions on this subject and I don't intend them to be yours or to be applied to how you hunt/shoot game. My public stand it that if it is legal I'll support your right to do it. For those of you who will read this and blow it off you REALLY need to get to a formal, measured range, stand up on your hind legs and shoot at 500yds. Better yet take a field rest and shoot, off the bench not allowed. Then come back here and post how easy it was.

John B 45 this for you; MOST of your viewers will be just plain every day "Joes" who work 5-6 days a week and try to put a little bit away for that once every 3 year hunt or in a likf time for some. If we are lucky and the transmission doesn't go out on the wife's car or the kid does'n break an arm or any of the other thousand things that will drain that hunt stash dry doesn't happens. We watch these shows like a "wish book" of someday I''l get to go. You can do us a very big service by being up front with the TRUE cost of the program hunt. You need to say "Joe" to go on this hunt and kill this class deer in will cost you XXXX dollars. There is nothing that will make me turn off a program quicker than "for commerical consideration".
Sorry about the soapbox but these are subjects that really strike a raw nerve with me.

Well, that's what they make long range calibers for. Some of us speak bad about magnums saying "most people don't have the skill to get any advantage using long range magnums" and then when there is someone who can make that shot everytime we say it's unethical.

I would like to see this show. I know every shot on your show can't be 800 yards. I'm trusting that these are just a small portion of your show and you just wanted to get some opinions on it before you show it. As well as getting the word out about a new show. Good idea.

If you want my opinion on things that I'd like to see on tv I'll tell you. I like seeing traditional archery hunts. There are just not many of them on anymore. I Also would like to see flintlock muzzleloader hunts. I think in all my years I've only seen one show with a guy shooting a flintlock. And, I hunt many areas in which the only modern gun hunting we can do is with a shotgun. My main deer gun is a smoothbore shotgun using rifled slugs and buckshot. I've never seen anyone on tv using one of those.

[ 03-26-2003, 13:36: Message edited by: Atlatlhunter ]

Also, most anti hunters I've seen didn't think long range shots were as unethical as letting a deer get really close to you and then shooting it with a scoped rifle. They say the deer has no chance at such a close range and if it's out a good long ways at least they have a chance that you would miss. Remember, anti hunters don't think the same as you and I do. They don't think about making a "clean" kill (to them no kill is clean), they are all about thinking of what kind of odds the deer has of evading the hunter.

I don't think this will give anti hunters any fuel. If they are anti hunting, then they will almost always be anti hunting forever and nothing will change their mind. As my friend puts it "you can't make someone understand who doesn't want to understand".

Terrible idea. Like a previous poster said, this is a "stunt" and very few shooters are able to hit properly at this range. Better to show how to stalk to get to an acceptable range, that is what hunting is about.

It is my opinion that few non hunters would ever see it, and if they did they wouldnt know it wasnt ok or that is wasnt easy to kill game that far. But the average hunter will know and thats your audience..you dont want to put off the audience so be carful what you show....if they do show stuff like that I for one would really like to see all the misses and all the wounded game...because editing out 10 bad shots and showing two good shots.......is FREAKING BULLS%#T...in my opinion of course....bob

John B 45

Without any more information than is offered in your initial post I have mixed feelings about the subject of airing such a show.. Your post is entitled "Long-range shooting on TV", this is a controversial subject as I'm sure you well know. I believe you'll first need to decide whether your showing Long Range Shooting or Long Range Hunting, there is a difference (IMHO).

There are several "factions" in the "responsible" long range hunting crowd each of which take a fair amount of flak/criticism from hunters utilizing other "more traditional" techniques. It's a lengthy and somewhat difficult process to convey the care, training, education and "ethical" correctness of responsible long range hunting. Lapses in the proper technique, ethical correctness, respect for the prey and now politically correct "somber" demeanor can and probably will contribute to further misconceptions and faction building.

If this TV show is such that it can be viewed as a mix of technical/equipment requirements, marksmanship requirements, smatterings of internal, external and terminal ballistics, shot followup and game animal behavior then I believe it could provide some benefit to all hunters and dispell some of the "myths" that exist regarding "responsible" long range hunting.

I am considered by some folks to be a long range hunter, I use skills to make long(er) distance shots when needed/desired. There are skills required for long range hunting, the thought that long range hunting is always a "stunt" is false. It's no more a stunt than any other type of activity that is practiced at the upper levels of achievement, it's just hunters using skills that exist on the upper edge of the standard distribution curve, we're not all "average" marksman nor hunters.

/r

I don't care if you shoot them close or far - but I do know I get frustrated watching some hunting shows because there is so very little information on the equipment being used - what gun, caliber, ammo etc. Most of us on this forum are equipment specific wantaknows. I remember way back when Curt Gowdy hosted the American Sportsman and the guys would sit arount a camfire or whatever and talk about the rifle/caliber selection the scenes were shot with. Would seem like you would get some sort of advertising support from all the various gun/ammo/scope suppliers if there product was mentioned and used sometime during the filming and shooting of a hunt. If you show some long range shots then dedicate a portion of the show to let viewers know what equipment they are using, why they are using it and might be a good idea to show some of the practice sessions(range time) that the hunters go through to obtain long range skills. I've seem to many shows lately where hunters are sitting in a real comfy tree house and what appears to be baiting/assasination more than hunting.

I think it would be a bad idea. I feel it would make the less skilled think they could perform the same feat not realizing all of the skill: knowledge of bullet drop, accurate range estimation or range finder, ability to read the wind at all the distances between the muzzle and the game, etc. plus the top quality equipment and components that had to come together to make such a shot.

To me, a show with this type scenario would be like one of those truck commercials we see on TV that insinuate owners of SUVs or trucks their vehicles can do anything. You've seen the commercials I'm talking about, driving like maniacs on dirt 2-track road, bouncing the vehicle into the air over bumps and sliding around on corners with no apparent discomfort to the driver or passangers AND no damage to the truck or SUV. All the while portraying that type of driving behavior is "normal".

As Mr. Heaton explained, if it's done right fine. I've seen some poor hunting shows, so I tend not to watch most of them anymore. I remember one in particular was an antelope hunt in Wyoming. I know the area hunted very well. The hunter was taking shots at antelope that were definitely out of (his) effective range. I would guess the shots at 4-500 yds. Shooting prayer shots in high winds is not hunting.

I personally don't think a 500 yd. shot is very difficult if a good rest is involved and conditions are right. I can hit the rams at 500 Meters offhand with a 7-08.

Let me say up front that I consider myself an expert at long range shooting. I live in a rural area that had a lot of opportunity for really long range sniping at pests when I grew up, and there were several of us who literally grew up with rifles taking advantage of it. I have commonly hunted groundhogs at 500 yards for 30+ years. In this case, a miss is a miss.

I believe it is unethical to shoot big game at those kind of ranges. A quick look at any wind drift table will confirm this. No one (and I believe this to be a fact, not my opinion) can walk to the top of a strange ridge, view 500-800 yds of country and judge the wind accurately enough to make a clean shot on the first try. It happens sometimes and sometimes the wind is quiet, but it is still unethical. With laser rangefinders, bullet drop is no real concern. With a big game animal at 800 yds, a near miss is a wounded animal which will die a slow death and be wasted.

Putting this on a TV program, as mentioned above, will only inspire more armchair hunters to buy ever more powereful cannons and try this. The only good thing is that it will likely induce flinching and insure reliable misses.

I'd watch it at least once.

I do some freelance writing for some of the hunting/shooting rags out there, and not long ago sent in an article on hunting with specialty pistols or "long-range" pistols. Although i was supposed to have "free reign" with this editor he turned me down on this one, without even reading it! He said if he published it he would lose subscribers, since long-range shooting of big game animals is so controversial. But he also told me that if i sent anything in on long-range varmint shooting, he would use it, since there's little controversy associated with that pursuit.

Here's a suggestion if you're interested in airing long-range shooting on TV. Contact gunsmith Bruce Artus in Pueblo, CO (719-547-0340). Bruce and his shooting partner have the record for the longest witnessed shot on a prairie dog at 3125 yds. (1.78 miles). I had several articles published on these guys in Precision Shooting publications several years ago. Put something like that on TV (their shooting and equipment) and i bet it'll knock the viewers socks off.

[ 03-26-2003, 20:10: Message edited by: sscoyote ]

Please don't do that. Most shooters can't even shoot for 300-400 yards cleanly. The idea is to cleanly and efficiently harvest an animal. Yes some guys can and do do it but most people don't have the skil. training, experience or equipment to take thinks at long range.

Go help at a public hunting sight in day. Lots of guys have trouble at 100 yard getting consistant groups during these days

My question is if you get the chance to shoot something at 100 yards will you do it?

How about a show about how close can we get? Take a 44 Mag handgun and stalk in close. That would be more entertaining.

Don't want to be negative but we don't want to get the give the wrong people the wrong idea

Hcliff

My personal hunting limit is 300 yards; if the animal is further, I get closer. All you have to do is to look at the time of flight for the bullet to 800 yards, and compare that to how far the animal can move at a slow walk to see what a crapshoot it is.

I do enjoy shooting targets at range, my personal best is a "first round hit" on a 55-gal drum target at 2,000 meters (surveyed) with a .50 BMG bolt gun. Great fun, but it is shooting, not hunting.

jim dodd

Only if you have these guy's show prior to the hunt that they can hit a target consistantly in any condition- not when the weather is perfect -cause we all know that its never perfect on a real hunt. I would love to see how these guy's do a shot at 800 yds when they have a cross wind of 40 mph, rain , snow ect!! Oh that's right these guy's never hunt in bad weather!!!

I agree that it might be a bad idea. Most true long distance shooters know what the facts are on distance, wind, bullet drop, etc...but the average "Joe", doesn't. All they think they need is a 300 super duper mag that they can "hold dead on out to 600yds" I've heard some strange things from customers while working in a gun dept., and they never want to listen about the other "not so fun" stuff that you have to learn in order to hit consistantly at long range. Weatherby, Remington, Winchester all have them fooled into thinking that it's just a point and shoot situation. I think you'd be better off making videos and selling them to the long distance shooting genre, and it would reduce the risk dramatically of people going out and wounding game. If you target the specific genre of shooters with the videos, the ones who know what they're doing, the chances of "Joe" seeing it and thinking he can do the same are reduced considerably. I love magnums, and own the 7.82 Warbird, but I will not WILL NOT take a shot at over 500yds unless I'm absolutely certain of all other factors involved...which is rarely the case. Please do hunters, animals, and the sport a favor by not airing the TV show...instead just offer the videos. Then it's a win/win situation.

We have people that watch TV & then go out & try to do the things they see. While I KNOW that long shots can & are made on big game every year, this could only cause the "TV type person" to give it a try. I have had nonhunting types ask me whats so hard about shooting an elk. moose, etc. "They're so big, how could you miss"? Get my point?

If Anyone is interested in a Long Range Hunting video.With a lot of useful info on how we do it send me an e-mail.You will be amazed

I had better give a little info on the format of the show.

80% of the hunts will be on public ground and unguided. We are headquartered in Wyoming and have our own stock to pack into the wilderness.

We do have quite a bit of handgun hunting (iron sighted revolvers, 45 long Colts, sorry no 44 Mags)

The majority of shots are at normal ranges but we have quite a few at longer range. We have over 60 successful hunts on video now.

We want to inform the viewers of what goes into each shot.

It seem most guys who don�t like the idea feel it will encourage others to things beyond their individual abilities. Do you guys think that does not go on now?

The question I have is whether a TV show detailing the homework required to actually make long shots would encourage or discourage people from trying things beyond their individual limitations?

Should we not show something because some irresponsible individual might do some thing stupid because he sees it on TV?

Just out of curiosity, why aren't TV shows more diversified in their choice of hunting tools? Rifles, inline muzzleloaders, and compound bows seems to be all people use nowadays. Congrats on using handguns.

I guess there is just a stigma against flintlocks, recurves, and shotguns. Especially smoothbores.

Atlatlhunter.... I always want to see someone hunt where I do, not on some ranch. Come with me.. guerilla warfare style hunting.. you can go on this postage stamp of land, and on this patch here, but you can't go over there, can't go over there, and if you go over there you'll be surrounded by the orange army. In a place where visability is an average 50 yards tops, and if you see one deer every two years your doing well.

It can't be any worse than watching Roy Jones Jr. blast away at pronghorn antelope. Chasing them with a truck, jumping out and taking pot shots.

Are you going to show the impact of the bullet? I quit watching hunting shows because they show the trigger man shoot, then skip straight to the dead and posed animal.

Anything that will get hunters to spend more time at the range will be useful. The important thing is to stress that you can't buy a gun a Walmart and be taking 500 yard shots the next day. Those that shoot these distance are a dedicated bunch, and if that can be stressed in the video, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.
I want to encourage any shooter to try a few shots at these ranges (not at game though). Even though I'm not that good at it anymore, its fun, and surprisingly, most first timers do better at it then they suspect.

After viewing a tape on LR hunting, I'd say you'd turn alot of people off. Sure, they don't have to watch, but it will offend many, that's for sure. It is a disgusting sport, and it seems to require zero to little talent, as in the video, a young girl who couldn't even take to safety off shot a fawn at 750 yards. Basically it is just killing for the sake of bragging about big yardage numbers.

Save the LR stuff for the videos for those who actually want to watch that sort of stuff. Disgusting.

Cas, the orange army I like that LOL.
I also get tired of seeing people hunting on ranches. Man, I would look like an awsome hunter if all I hunted was game ranches. I'd tag out in every state I went to!

Tod, some shows are just discusting no matter how long the shots are. Take Ted Nugent's spirit of the wild for example. The first season it ran I thought it was great. Then it went off the air for a few monthes to film more hunts. When they came back the show wasn't the same, they changed the opining theme from a normal one to one that lasts 5 minutes. Then you see ted in a stand. He watches deer or hogs walk around for a minute and then he shoots one. Then ted flips out. After that you get 20 minutes of consert film. And then his wife and son talk about something you don't really care about, finally ted recovers the animal and he speaks about "the beast" for the last few minutes. The show flat out sucks even though all shots are under 40 yards and he shoots without sight pins.

John B 45

Let me give you my take on why you shouldn't do what you described.

Basically, you can't.

All hunting shows are 45 minutes. Due to the nature of the beast; the cost, the potential market, the value of advertising etc., the shows are predominately commercials. This is an economic fact of life for the producers but is also the reason they have pretty limited appeal. A typical show starts with a teaser, several sponsers spots, a cut to a series of commercials, 3-4 minutes of tape, more commercials, more sponsers, 3-4 minutes of tape, .......,2-3 minutes of erudite conversation over the kill,.... and off.

I have timed several shows and this is true. Most of these shows contain only 9-10 minutes of program content. One recent safari show had 5-1/2 minutes of non-advertising or filler tape. There is simply not enough time in the context of a normal hunting program to start to scratch the surface of a subject such as this. No one will really be educated. The result will be the same as just showing a hunt. A little information and no real substance. A video is the only format in which a subject such as this can be intelligently presented. Ultimately, the choice is yours. I get the feeling from your comments that you already have an opinion about this and are looking for validation more than opinion.

Whatever you do, please don't include any shots of an idiot setting in a blind while aiming at a buck for 2 minutes as it stands broadside, then deciding to push the safety off and doing it again. This is usually followed by the "Man, I thought he was going to get away before I could get a shot off!" sequence. That's real excitement. I can't stand anymore.

IMO,if you have an 800 yard shot on tape, and you would say it was 300, no one would be the wiser.....

The only way I would be interested in watching is if you put it in a "hunter ed" type format, as mentioned above. JMO, Dutch.