This is a really, really bad idea. Any show that focuses on the shot rather than the hunt is going to draw complaints from everyone, hunters and non-hunters alike
John

You ever get tired of someone blaming someone else for another persons actions? This is akin to the firearms industry being held liable for an individual that commits a crime with a gun, isn't it? Why don't they subpoena Nike because the criminal was wearing their tennis shoes while committing the crime? How far do you go with it? Where does it stop? 60 minutes had a special several years ago called the "Don't Blame Me Society", where all the criminals were blaming someone else for their own actions. Sounds like that's what's going on here. Whatever happened to freedom of speech?

Obviously your going to present the issue as diplomatically as possible, or else you wouldn't be posing the question of ethics here.

i for one trust you. But when you air it let us know, i (and obviously others) want to tune in on this one.

Sscoyote,

You are right on in my opinion.

The show starts on 7 Apr 03. It will be on The Sportsman Channel. www.thesportsmanchannel.com

Should be free. Call your cable company.

John

I'd be interested in seeing more long range target shooting on TV.

I'll pass on long range killing on TV though. FWIW, I don't begrudge competent shooters doing it if that's what "floats their boat", but I am personally not interested in watching it broadcast on TV, particularly if it is passed off as hunting. For clarity, I will reiterate - I don't have a real problem with people shooting animals at long range. I have even done it from time to time, and will likely do it again (most likely on coyotes etc). But I will never categorize it as real "hunting", and save my respect for those people that shoot long range and have the integrity to admit that that is what it really is. Marksmanship is a component of the set of skills required to be a skillful hunter, but it is not a substitute for the other skills.

JMH and personal O,

Canuck

Canuck,

Thanks for your input. I think shooting skill is one of the skills to develop in hunting and totally agree it should not replace other skills. Do you think this works in reverse? Should stalking skills replace shooting skills?

My feeling is one does not replace the other. I enjoy using both skills in the field, the only real test of the skills. Some hunts require more stalking and others put more of a strain on my shooting skills. Depends on what I want to do on that hunt and the type of arm I am using.

I don�t personally agree with this statement but I have a friend who says �Anybody can sneak close, the Indians did it for years�. Before someone blows a gasket I only included that because we all hunt for different reasons. I think we tend to think our style of hunting is the best and cannot understand why someone would think differently.

Just some thoughts

John

This is very interesting. I would like someone with the "skill" who has "done the homework" to please explain to me how you gain the talent that is nessesary to get an animal to hold still while you shoot at them at those distances.

Yes, since people all over are doing it anyway then it MUST be an ethical thing to promote. By all means, educate me in this matter.

John,

I agree, it does not go the other way either. An ethical hunter will only take shots that are within his range of competence. To put that in perspective, however, someone that sneaks to within spitting distance of his quarry will not need to be capable of 6" groups at 800 yards to be able to ethically pull the trigger.

WRT the comments from your friend, I hope he has his tongue pressed firmly in his cheek when he says that. I personally enjoy and participate in pretty much all kinds of hunting, and even long range shooting some times (in fact I whacked a coyote at just over 500 yards two weekends ago, with a single shot from my trusty 6.5 Gibbs). Anyone that thinks its easy to sneak up on any animal to within the effective range of a recurve or longbow, either hasn't tried it or is a far better hunter/woodsman than I.

I agree that too many people tend to justify their own behaviour and condemn anyone that might enjoy things differently. I am not one of them though. I can understand why people participate in long range shooting at game. I may not enjoy it as much, but as I have said, I've done it and will probably do it again. I will not condemn others for doing it. I just tend to disagree on the application of the term "hunting" to that activity, and I don't think that it is a particular activity by which "hunting" should be judged.

There is an entire spectrum of ways that animals can be harvested for food or recreationally. The methods range from primitive hunting (spears, traditional bows, etc) all the way to just killing them at a slaughterhouse. I just feel that long range shooting is much closer to the latter than the former, and is close enough to "slaughtering" that I personally no longer classify it into the broad realm of "hunting".

As to the "testing of skills", I test my woodsmanship in the field and I test my marksmanship at the range.

I am impressed by little groups at long ranges, but I am ambivalent about dead animals at long ranges. With incompetent shooters, my ambivalence becomes disdain.

But opinions are like a55holes, right?

FWIW,
Canuck

[ 03-29-2003, 02:44: Message edited by: Canuck ]

Around here (Alabama) we mostly hunt out of treestands. If you see a deer 100 yards away, chances are he doesn't know you're there. If that is "sportsmanlike" why not extend the range. My 300 RUM will hit a pieplate at 500 yards all day long; clean barrel, dirty barrel, slight wind, whatever (as long as it's well braced). What's the "sportsman" difference?

This goes on and on anytime someone brings up long range hunting. We have the group that always saids it is unsportman like. I can see no differants in shooting a deer at 100 yards then shooting them at 500 or 1000. It is all shooting. Its the last 50 yards where the hunting gets hard. Ask any bow hunter. Any body who uses a scope rifle that is capable of speeds over 2400 fps. Has nothing to talk about. Some of you set your limits at 300 yards. It isn't any harder to get with in 300 then 500. So the shot at 310 at the world record your going to pass up I dought it. Know what your capable of doing.

"Range of competence". That term was used above and it is what bothers me. In truth, few people have the ability to make long range shots. If you show long range shooting, even if you stress the practice and different equipment that may be called upon, every box a year hunter is going to think he ought to be able to do it. "Its the "if I have a boat like Bill Dance, then I can catch fish like Bill Dance" syndrom. I think its the wrong thing to stress on an outdoor show. As one of the european posters remarked, "in Sweden, if you say you shot your game beyond 100 meters, you are thought to have very poor stalking abilities."

Would Carlos Hathcock not be considered a hunter due to the ranges he took his quarry at?

Regards,

Holmes

Wstrnhuntr

I don't believe it'd be possible to educate you on this matter, you've made up your mind and that's pretty much it for you as I see it!

Take a little time to watch the animals, learn their methods and habits. Stalkers don't sneak up when the animal is holding still testing the wind or listening, do they? They wait until the animal is occupied with moving, eating or scratching, long range hunters shoot when the animal is not moving. Learning when to shoot is not a difficult proposition if you'd take the time to learn about the animals natural movement(s). Stumbling throught the woods scaring them up at 50 yards and believing that mad dash for safety is the normal mode is fairly incorrect.

For the other folks that might be interested in how we get the animals to hold still for a shot.... Ever see deer feed, they casually browse or graze and move very little in many instances. Ever see deer bedded, they hold pretty still (unless they're old and need to get up and pee).

This question/issue is a non-issue!

John B,
You Do what You want to. Don't let people deter you from what You want to do. I'll say Go For It.
If people don't want to watch it they can turn the channel. Most will watch , but say they don't. Best of Luck with it.

I know this reply will be very very unpopular.Most guys that get out bowhunting 6-12 times a year will lose as many deer as the same yahoo's shooting 500yards.There are those bowhunters that have the time and dedication to practise enough,that will hardly ever lose a deer.The same can be said about long range shooters.Should the guy that works 50-60 hours a week not be allowed to bowhunt because he doesn t have the time to practise.How about that same guy shooting long range?I say to each there own....Those that have not sinned throw the first stone yadda yadda yadda.Hear is the real unpopular part....NO one wants to miss out on recovering a deer-its a waste of meat/to you/,but the same coyotes and scavangers that would have eaten that deer in 2-6 years will have an earlier crack at it.As for this bolony about a quick death(you guys sound like city folk)no deer dies easy.starvation,being eaten alive by predators,or freezing to death are all just as inhumane.

I have mixed feelings about this; maybe you should show some of the unsuccessful shots as well, and the 5-mile hikes that go with them. At the least, the shooter should explain his thoughts about wind and distance, and why he thinks the wind is consistent enough to gauge a shot ( the rest of us might learn something ). With laser rangefinders, distance is not what it was, but doping wind is another matter.

Finally, it may be a deadly bore, poor television. Even for a hunter or range shooter, it is a lot of slow preparation and over quickly, for good or ill.

Tom

The show made it's debut this past Monday. Did anybody watch it?

when is the next showing?

No Sorry missed it-Actually I don't think I have it on my cable package? Well I've some read of the other posted replies to this and it provked some further response in me. I can agree with the LR folks on some of there points but I'll be one of those old timers and stick what sits in my gut as right. Just because your super magnum rifle can shot that far and kill an animal doesn't make it right-sorry that me! Not if your dedicated and skilled enough to shot at those distances good on you. But have a show that proprts that this is the excepted norm in the field is not good- show the show -but also make dam sure you show the long retrival march to get the game animal- not the drive on the fourwheeler or helicopter ride the walk or horse back ride around the mountain to get to where the animal dropped. as long as you do that then you can ensure that the young hunter that see this can make a fair judgement as to wether this is "Hunting" or "Snipping"!!

[ 04-09-2003, 21:51: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

John, if it was due for being aired at that date, you certainly were not looking for input regarding whether to show it, you were just looking for more viewers. I don't like being played like that. I don't know about the others. If ethics has anything to do with it you have a few strikes ahead of you already.

[ 04-10-2003, 05:39: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Thats about the best way I can think of to get our hunting rifles classified as 'Sniper Rifles' by the gun grabbers and will only serve to put more anti pressure on our sport. Please don't do it.

I've read a lot of this bashing of long range hunting and that it shouldn't be allowed or shown on TV.

I guess if that's so we should stop making fast cars and quit showing auto racing on tv too.... ROFLMAO!!!!!!

C'mon guys... This is the land of the free!

I know several hunters that can't kill a buck at more than 25yds but I'll defend their right to take that 100yd shot that they regularly botch, and try to help them become better shots.

I guess that I'm just not in favor of more restrictions on our hunting and I see the distance limitation argument as being an excellent way for overly restrictive laws and anti-hunters to further chip away at my/our hunting rights.

If you can't shoot at long range then admit that you just can't do it but don't try to limit those that invest the money and time to do it properly from doing it...

I say that I'd love to see the long range hunting show on TV and let the naysayers watch something else or spend their time trying to restrict other perfectly legal activities.....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LongRangeRifle

LDHunter (Long Distance Hunter)
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