The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Outfitter/guides "won't allow" certain rifles/bullets brands in camp???Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I have heard it said that certain outfitters or guides "won't allow" certain brands of rifles (for example in one case: Blaser rifles) or bullets to be used on the hunt they guide. This sounds like rubbish to me, aside from the basic pretense being stupid and inapplicable in practise, in 20 years of guided hunts, having guided for 15 years myself it has never come up. Also, what is a client to do if they get into camp and are told by some dimwit that their choice of bullet or rifle wont be "allowed"? There isnt much that can be done. I'm not talking about cartridges or weapons not meeting legal requirements for hunting, obviously that is another matter altogether. So has anyone actually encountered this? | ||
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I have heard of guides being unhappy about muzzlebrakes but never a make / model of firearm or bullet.. "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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"Unhappy about muzzle brakes" is an understatement...... Hang on TITE !! | |||
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I have heard rumors of such but never actually experienced such. With that said, I know one guide that does not like seeing clients show up in camp with 7mm Remington Magnum rifles and claims he has seen more elk shot and lost with that caliber. When I was doing the guided javelina hunts in Pecos county in west Texas, I had and still have a stigma concerning variable scopes, but that revolves more around the experience level of the hunter and not the scope. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I have seen it, sort of. Some genius showed up on an elk hunt with 2 boxes of assorted cartridges meaning different brands, different bullets and different weights. Guides sorted out the ammo an only allowed him to use one type . | |||
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I showed for a guided hunt and when we went to check the zero on my rifle he quickly pointed to my bullets and said "we don't allow ballistic tips for moose" he went on to tell me about how they blow up and don't penetrate enough. I interrupted him and said these are Barnes TTSX bullets...he said it didn't matter all "ballistic tips" were not allowed. I had to have a 15 minute conversation to convince him these bullets were up to snuff and were not the Ballistic tips he was thinking of. | |||
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I hunted in Namibia with Sebra. Jan the owner/ph made no bones he didn't like the Blaser rifle I brought nor the Swarovski scope I had(mauser/ruger/leupold fan). Killed everything I shot at, did put two in a gemsbok that the first was a tad back, but was fatal. Hunt was Ok, but I found it odd that a service provider would bring it up on more than one occasion. I dropped the firing pin on an empty chamber on a Hyena as he has his hunters carry empty chamber. I hunt with a round loaded as game could be 5 minutes or 5 hours into a hunt here and most deer are shot at close range in a hurry, just not used to hunting empty; he was quick to want to blame a misfire because it was a Blaser. Said he had issues in the past with them on hunts and they are not accurate. | |||
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I think often clients expect guides and particularly African PH's to be knowledgeable about rifles, ballistics etc. In reality often they are not. A rifle is like a hammer to a carpenter and a cartridge is like the nail often to these guys. As in Heym's experience the guide had not a clue that other bullets other than Ballistic tips had a polymer tip. To EXPRESS's question there are guides and PH's that don't want to see a hunter show up with a certain rifle or load. I know a PH that absolutely refuses to let his clients use Nosler Partitions even on soft skin animals. That of course is nuts but that's his prejudice. Another hates Weatherby rifles and cartridges. We were both talking to a prospective hunter about a leopard safari. The hunter wanted to bring his 340 WBY and the PH immediately shut him down saying that the Weatherbys were too fast and gave no further explanation. That of course is nuts too because the 340 WBY with premium bullets is a hammer. Another uses solids for everything including cats and wants his clients to do the same. My advise to a hunter thinking about any kind of a hunt is to have a discussion with the guide/PH before the hunt to iron out any of these rifle or ammo issues to avoid any unpleasant moments over rifles and loads. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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So it seems my suspiscions are confirmed, its basically heresay. I too have my opinions and prejudices about the tools of our trade, but recognize they are simply personal feelings and mostly unfounded in fact. These feeling may come out around a campfire, or maybe in jest, but if a hunter turns up with a muzzle braked Blaser 7mm wby mag with ballistic tips, (or whatever pet hate you may have) that's his business. | |||
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I found a lot of guides know far less then a good gun nut when it comes to ballistics. But then when it comes to the average hunter that goes on a guided hunt they could know more. The only way I would think a guide would say anything would be an illegal rifle caliber combo. Or one totaling improper for the situation say a 22 hornet on a elk hunt or some such. | |||
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I have worked under the premise that if the hunter is familiar with the gun and ammunition of their choice and is accurate with the combination, then my only responsibility to get them within range to take a shot they are comfortable with taking. After the shot it is my responsibility to find the animal that was hit and do everything I can to make sure it is dead. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I was started as a tagalong kid with the old elk killers. "nothing less than .30/06 with 180gr." I learned the hard way hitting a bull at 25 feet on the point of the shoulder when he was running by. Used a 150gr '06. Sure as hell it blew up, just made a big bubble under the skin. Just happened to hit on the shoulder, not my expected hit, fully expected as fast as he was running by to hit behind the shoulder, just lead too much and was too close. The next one blew it's head apart. That was about '60 when bullets were iffy as could be. The only other time I witnessed problems was an uncle used a .264mag and I think 130's, wounded several elk. I tracked two for miles and never did see them, blood trails were good. fully expect they were bad surface wounds. I had a fluke one bullet failure on a cow elk at 200yds, blew up on the ribs hit in the right spot. 180gr C/L. Didn't even get thru the ribs! Hole 2"x9", lung was fine. Did knock her down, then I made a bad offhand when she got up and took off. Hitting top of hips but, it spined her and was down. Pistol to the head did the finish up trick once I got up there close enough. Hell of a deal as the same batch of bullets and loads out of 200 rnds has killed over 50 head. Several within 50yds, two I know of about 30-40 feet and not a one blew up. These were all loaded in 2000. No excuse for such a bullet to fail especially at 200yards. I wouldn't hunt with anyone with a muzzle brake myself. I don't want to be on the same mtn, or range with one. Nor do I want to see anyone, especially an inexperienced kid use a .243 for elk. Even though Randall pointed out it's legal. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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It seems you have to ask about EVERYTHING these days. Always get it in writing unless you know and trust your PH. | |||
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On a hunt to Alaska several years ago the outfitter almost had the hunt cancelled because he "refused" to allow me to use handloads, claiming that they weren't reliable and he wasn't going to risk his life with anything less than "factory" ammo. We were after bear and he had his own rifle as backup, in which I said he was free to load it with the ammo of his choice, however, the handloaded cartridges would stay in mine. | |||
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Right on Ray!! I'll be damned if I ever use factory ammo for anything. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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Well, at best sounds like a great way to inshure you get no tip. At worst, will absolutely make positive you have a hunter book somewhere else if you are honest enough to tell him upfront. I always advise what guns and bullet designs and weights I plan on using. Gives me a read on the guide. | |||
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THIS. I'll also add hosts of very popular hunting shows. Under Wild Skies is arguably my favorite Africa hunting show, that said, I can't for the life of me understand why Tony Makris insists on solids ONLY for buffalo. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I asked my moose outfitter for his opinion on what to bring for moose. He was open to almost anything .270 and above. He did say "we" do not allow ballistic tips for moose. When I asked him what he considered a ballistic tip? He said anything labeled by the manufacture as ballistic tip. He understood a polymer tip did not make a bullet ballistic. I have walked in the foot prints of the elephant, listened to lion roar and met the buffalo on his turf. I shall never be the same. | |||
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Haven't ever heard it discussed in the camps I've been in. BTW, I killed my 1st moose with a 270 and 130 gr. Nosler ballistic tips and piled a 65" Alaskan with 150 gr. Ballistic tips. Guess I got lucky. Twice... | |||
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I've not hunted on many guided trips I mostly do the "do it yourself" route. The few guides and outfitters I've dealt with are usually more concerned about a clients ability to shoot and their fitness. The biggest complaint I've ever heard about "bullet failure" is right here on this very forum. Usually the naysayers run down Sierra's and Ballistic tips even though in the actual hunting fields I've not seen any problem with either. Last fall the three Bull(elk)tags we had in camp were all filled with 180 grain 30 caliber Nosler bullets. Ballistic Tips, Accubonds and Partition. One of each were recovered and they ALL weighed nearly the same (within a couple grains)60% weight retained. I've used Sierra bullets my entire life and have knocked down a pile of North American big game with them, however on this forum I hear about blow ups, bullet "failure" and poor performance (?) I took Sierra bullets to Africa on a plains game hunt 2 years ago and had, as I expected, perfect performance from them. I've only recovered one Sierra bullet and that was 350 meter shot on a Blue Wildebeest, shoulder to hip and the bullet was a perfect mushroom retaining 89% of its weight. I must say the "gun cranks" on this forum are an absolute wealth of information and experience and for the most part I value peoples opinions when based in fact unless it runs counter to what I've experienced first hand then I must question it. When people tell me that you "MUST" have a premium bullet of "this" brand to kill Elk, Moose, Bear, Mule Deer or to go on any African hunt I can't help but chuckle to myself just a bit.  | |||
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I've only been on two guided hunts. In each instance I had conversations with the guides and they offered their take on appropriate calibers. We didn't discuss bullets until the start of (and following) the hunt. It's their business and entirely their prerogative to insist on calibers and bullets based on their experience/opinion - if you don't agree with their take, book with someone else. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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I hunted with Ray Perkins out of Miles City, Mt for mule deer he told me did not like any bullet to exit a deer's body from any rifle. Said what use is it to have the bullet plow into the sage behind the animal. At the time I was using a 30-06 with 165 gr HPs I had handloaded killing everything from whitetails to moose with the gun and load first day out I killed a dandy mulie buck with one shot and a nice exit hole dropped in his tracks..his comment, " lucky you broke his shoulder" in fact I had hit him behind the shoulders thru the ribs. | |||
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When it comes to understanding ballistics and having an overall understanding of rifles, Jan is the best PH or guide I have been with. He asked me my opinion about different calibers, rifles, etc. constantly. | |||
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The last time I hunted with a muzzle brake was in Tanzania is 2012, but my PH always put on earmuffs no matter which rifle I shot. I don't generally use them, but I would point out the blast of an unbraked is not safe to be exposed to over and over. In other words, if you are a guide or PH, you should always have some kind of hearing protection. | |||
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I hunted with Jan an his wife Mariejse both splendid people, Jan an I sat out late into each evening discussing rifles,calibers, loads and such. I believe he wore his Ruger .44 to bed at night. | |||
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It takes about 5 minutes at the range with our hunters to see who can handle a rifle and shoot accurately. It's very evident, very quickly. The shooter (and bullet choice) is much more important than the make of the rifle. | |||
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Simply relating my experience there. As I said hunt was fine,I have suggested to other folks looking for a hunt to consider talking to him. Honest guy and I left a hell of a tip as he didn't want to charge me for a Hyena we couldn't find in the rocks after a fun hunt calling. Just happen to disagree about my choice of rifle; I don't recall talking much about rifles/calibers/ etc other than looking at a few rifles he owned. Had a 8x60s IIRC that I liked. I have hunted with several folks in different places like many here; it has been the only time anyone has ever brought the topic up so I mentioned it. | |||
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I used to discourage the use of Barnes "X" bullets when asked by my clients. After they became popular, I ended up tracking several wounded animals shot with that bullet in various calibers & weights. Haven't had that problem lately, Barnes has obviously improved their performance over the years. The other thing I discourage is "twizzler" scopes. Those dial up the range variety. Too many times I've watched hunters ranging the target and messing with their scope while the animal walks over the hill and no shot is ever fired. Usually the range is inside 400 yds, usually well inside that range, and with a modern rifle sighted in at 200 yds, no adjustment is necessary. Just put the crosshairs on hair and get a good steady shot off before the animal is gone. A secondary problem with these scopes is that the hunter forgets what the scope is dialed in for and shoots well over an animal. Sigh, that's why I love being a guide. Watching the hunters learn is almost as much fun as taking their photo with a really great animal. Pancho LTC, USA, RET "Participating in a gun buy-back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids." Clint Eastwood Give me Liberty or give me Corona. | |||
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Im calling  on that one....I hear them say such things, particularly about muzzle brakes, but when push comes to shove I never met an outfitter who would or could afford to turn down a hunt..If any outfitter I book for sets down such tripe, then he is off my list, I can't afford to turn down business, if I did the wolves would be at my door...Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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In the spring of 2015 I hunted brown bear....boat hunt with Dale Adams. He made it clear beforehand that he did not want Nosler Partitions brought on his boat, and said so in his pre hunt info sheet. He felt that they didn't hold together...not tough enough. I was using A Frames so no problem. Life Member- NRA & SCI | |||
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The PH/Guide has an obligation to inform the client, before any $$$ changes hands; what his restrictions are. If he does not do that in writing, then I believe the client's wishes are to be followed. | |||
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There is an elk guide on here who refuses to allow less than 30 caliber. Larry sumptin or other, think he is in NM. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike if I recall his minimum is a Magnum 30 cal. | |||
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AZ writer, Some times during a hunt there isent time to put on hearing protection, and the movement involved may very well spook game. I have mastered the art of holding my binoculars in my hands with my fingers in my ears. I believe if recoil bothers a hunter to the point they need a muzzle brake they need to get something that kicks them less. I have watched a hunter shoot at an Elk using a brake equipped rifle and a pine tree covered in snow for a rest it was pretty funny ! Hang on TITE !! | |||
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There are VERY FEW people that have the experience to honestly discuss knowledgably all aspects of various makes of rifles and bullets/ammunitions. There are LOTS of people who have their own experience and there are even more people who have no experience whatsoever but profess to KNOW the truth about EVERYTHING when it comes to guns and loads. What I know is things change all the time. I shoot Barnes TTSX and solid bullets exclusively because they group the best and have never failed to quickly kill whatever they hit. I also shoot Rifles Inc rifles with a break and have never once been told it wasn't allowed nor told it was louder than any other rifle without a break. Even if it is, the outfitter and PHs did not turn me down because of it and I always make certain to tell them far in advance of my hunt and before a deposit is paid. Do your homework and put a good bullet where it belongs. The rest will take care of itself. | |||
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Twice I have had to demonstrate to a PH why so-called "Africa Carry", wherein the hunter closes the bolt with the trigger pulled, is dangerous. They did not believe until I showed them using a piece of tape on the case head that this leaves the firing pin resting against the primer. Some PH's (guides, outfitters, etc.) are knowledgeable, but many are not. | |||
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Spot on Rich All We Know Is All We Are | |||
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If you book with a guide or PH ( a guide is the N American version of the African PH - except he also does all the work of the camp staff as well) Ask what he prefers and if he dislikes one particular rifle or bullet. It's your money so ask why and try to comply. If not you can reasonably expect one of his bullets to quickly follow yours. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Jan is quite a gun nut and very knowledgeable. I enjoyed our gun conversations during a hunt with him this last June. I asked him what rifle he least liked to see a hunter bring. He replied "A 300 Weatherby." He felt the factory ammo was loaded too hot, but the main issue was a tendency for clients with little shooting experience to bring them. Typically, they didn't shoot them too well. | |||
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When I was guiding buffalo hunts in Arnhemland (Australia) I personally mandated a minimum of .375 H&H, despite there being no legislated legal minimum caliber dictated by our Governement. I did this for numerous reasons but mostly in the interests of a humane, rapid and effective dispatch. Prior to mandating this rule I had numerous hunters book with me and turn up in camp with anything from a .30/06, .308 and ,300's as well as numerous .338's. No doubt some/most of those cals will/did work, but ironically, AFTER I mandated the .375 as a minimum the number of charges and follow-ups on wounded animals decreased SUBSTANTIALLY. Generally speaking your P.H/Guide will have formed definite opinions on equipment based on his exposure in the field. If he has been around long enough this exposure will have carved his opinion in a certain direction. If he is a legitimate operator his success will be foremost in his mind, he will NOT be advising you to fail, your success is HIS success. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Outfitter/guides "won't allow" certain rifles/bullets brands in camp???
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