quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
Why I don't like dogs.

In the last week my kids have been chased twice in my own yard.

Dogs are completely unpredictable.

The dogs that don't chase the kids just piss all over the toys my fence my house.

Yesterday I got to see a poor lady walking her dog on a leash and a pit bull attacked it. The woman was screaming and trying to hold her own dog as it was getting chewed on by the other dog.

I had my 5 and 6 year old kids with me and they could never fend off an attack like that.

I was attacked by a dog when I was twelve and have not been a dog lover since.

Alaskans don't count?! We have 10000 wolves in Alaska and they eat dogs here too. We can only shoot them during open seasons. And we argue about the best policies to manage them here too. I think we are at the least qualified to discuss the wolves.

I may be an Alaskan but my heart is in Montana too. I only lived there for nine years but would go back if I could make a living there. Figure I'll just retire there.

You are quoting valid reasons for your aversion to dogs. If I may respond in a futile attempt to open your mind:
You are blaming dogs for the sins of their keepers.
In most cases a bad dog is bad because of a careless or inept owner.
Just like somebody here stated that he hates shotguns because shotguns kill people.We all know: guns dont kill people.We dont live in Disneyland were guns start taken action.

Back to dogs: in general - allowing for exceptions - a dog is mans best friend.A good dog is a family member just like a child.

Let that sink in.

So your bad experience allows for you not liking them - thats fine.I feel sorry for you that you never experience the unquestioning love of a dog.


But that is all OK,you have a right to dislike.
I would though employ you to open your mind a bit and possibly see that others have a different experience and fondness.

We dont want our dogs and children attacked by anyone - even wolves.And we ask for your understanding and vote to allow that.

I hate to have my dog killes by marauding wolves when visiting my MT property, hate to have to carry a rifle when walking the woods.

This is my living space ,the wolf is in direct competition with me,he wants or needs what I wnt and cherish.He infringes on my enjoyment of nature and because he is protected,I am forced to hunker down in walled in enclaves?

The wolve reintroduction into the crowded lower 48 is a huge misstep,perpetrated by citizens of limited experience and understanding.
It is OK if wolves rip down calves,cows and all of domestic animals as well as all other wildlife to bring the west back to the empty status of past times,it is not OK for man to ethically hunt the same animals in a controlled fashion, allowing for much larger herds of all !

It appears the wolv,in the distorted and mistinterpreted religious opinion of its supporters is becoming a deity that can do no wrong.

The wolves right to live and enjoy at will comes before mine and all mankind.


IdahaVandal et al "love " all wildlife - without question!
What anoble and shortsighted attitude.
I dont and I dont advocate this short sighted political opinion.

I spray poison Oak because it hurts me,I kill mosquitos because thet hurt me,I kill tapeworms - because they hurt me -Yes , apparently I am egocentric and I call all reasonable men to stand up and vote for people rather than wildlife that interferes with our lifestyle to the extreme.

This from an individual that loves and appreciates wildlife and nature and believes that Disneyland is different from nature.

A californicator with property in montana. No fuckin' way.

quote:

Originally posted by popenmann:

quote:

Originally posted by DennisHP:Anyone who loves dogs should hate wolves after reading this.

I'm not a dog lover. That aside, I can sympathize with the loss of a beloved pet.

However ...... the dude was asking for it.

This is the same sort of logic that is applied to a woman who was raped. "She was asking for it." Nice touch.

Wolves are neither good nor evil. Like us, they kill other creatures, and some of us also take pleasure in killing other creatures. Having said that, I deplore the USFWS actions in the reintroduction of wolves without even asking those who live in the area whether or not they wanted them, and then telling them that the wolves are sacred and may not be killed. I am not in favor of exterminating all wolves, just as I would not be in favor of exterminating all leopards or lions, but there is a slight difference. We hunt lions and leopards. Here in the USA, we aren't allowed to hunt wolves, period. End of discussion. This is another case of "I'm from the government and I know what is best for you. BOHICA."

My feeling is if you are out in the woods you need to pack heat. Not pepper spray heat. If an animal threatens you or your property take care of it no matter if it is protected or not. If I was the guy that had his dogs killed and almost killed myself I would get revenge. No matter if it is legal or not. Some laws are meant to be broken in certain situations. If I had to watch and hear my dog getting ripped apart by a wolf that wolf better hide for the rest of its life. If I was this guy I would be out in that area with a call of a barking dog setup and rifle waiting for them to come in. If Uncle Sam has a problem with that tough shit. Wolves are fine and I do not think every wolf needs to die. But when a pack has the balls to take out a pack of dogs and fend off two humans they are out of control and That pack needs to be taken out. You can say its crazy I would want revenge. Eye for an Eye and God put man in charge of animals not the other way around.

My theory is that most large predators which are protected from all hunting will eventually lose their fear of men and pose a threat to him. If limited hunting is allowed, at least the fear of man will help to make them less bold and agressive.

I lived in north east Ukraine, near to Russia, for almost a year. In the villages in the Russian forests the people stay indoors after dark in the winter, because of hungry wolves. I told the people that according to many American studies a wolf attacking a human is extremely rare. They laughed and said, here wolves are very real threat to personal safety because there are so many, they become hungry in the winter, and the villagers do not guns to protect themselves.

I think we are seeing here in the States with bear, cougar, and wolves that if they are not hunted at all, they will become a threat when game population is depleted.

The wolf was rushed into reintroduction,because the dickheads that wanted wolves,knew that they wouldn't pass on popular vote. These same assholes didn't dare do a real impact study,because then they'd have heavy proof that wolves were not an option for reintroduction. Wyoming had a bounty on wolves up until 1945. Wyoming at one time subsidized wolf extermination with more money then they gave the university of wyoming. Wolves would have never been reintroduced,had it not been for a national park within the state. Wolves are living proof that the feds will do whatever the fuck they want.

Wolves will be destructive to livestock and pets even when there is a large surplus of wild prey. For the simple fact that domestic animals are easier to catch and kill,then wild prey.

What needs to be done. Is all wolves that are seen outside of documented areas,need to be killed on sight. The feds like to draw lines and claim theres no wolves outside of this area. Therefore,if you kill one of these fuckers outside of the area,its just an overgrown coyote. If people would take killing wolves into their own hands,the feds couldn't possibly keep up with the extermination.

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:

So, by the same logic we ought to ban guns to!

My step-father was murdered with a 12 gauge shotgun at 10 yards (twice in the chest).

I had to go ID him so that my mother wouldn't

That's just what a lib would say. Problem is, the shotgun didn't hunt your step-father down. The guy that pulled the trigger did and I'm all for hunting him into extinction, too!

To check my facts posted earlier I just got off the phone with Steve Nadeau who is the Idaho Fish & Game person charged with managing wolves in Idaho You can check with him at 208-334-2920 if you have questions.

Ever since the wolf re-introductions in Idaho and Yellowstone Park the livestock grazing permitees on Federal lands could kill a wolf that was actively in the process of killing his livestock or dogs. He could not kill wolves that were harassing his stock. On private lands the livestock owner could kill wolves that were killing or harassing livestock or dogs. Pet owners could kill a wolf attacking a pet on private land but not on Federal lands.

In February of 2005 the rules changed and in addition to the above livestock permittes can now kill wolves that are harassing permitted livestock on Federal lands.

In Idaho, Wyoming and Montana the USF&WS did not pay any $$ for livestock killed by wolves. The Defenders of Wildlife payed full value for proven wolf kills and 50% for probable kills. When Idaho was given authority to manage wolves a few months ago, the USFWS began giving the State of Idaho $100,000/year for wolf depredation payments. This is payed at the 100% rate for confirmed kills and 50% for probable kills. The defenders of Wildlife continue to share these costs witth the state.

Because Wyoming does not have an approved wolf management plan the USFWS does not give the State of Wyoming any wolf depredation dollars and never has given them any. The Defenders of Wildlife continues to reimburse Wyoming livestock owners as above.

I have lived in Montana or Idaho for the past 40 years. I wonder which of the three western states being discussed that Sleeder lives in.

465H&H

A unique problem that you guys have or will have is large pack size. That is where I see a major difference also between lower 48 wolf behavior and Alaskan wolves.

We have 10000 wolves here but they are rarely seen. And usually in groups of @ 6 or less. Unless your in no mans land out in the bush.

Maybe a hundred years ago when the West truly had wilderness areas did the Wolf deserve his place. Progress forced their eradication. How much wilderness is left nowadays? Not much and then the Feds in their wisdom trap them in Canada and release them here even though the states in question objected. Then they expect them to live peacefully and prosper without any repercussions. I say release groups of them in some selected eastern states and see how the poodles and shitzus fare. At this point it will be impossible to eradicate them. Best Solution would be hunting seasons as Alaska and Canada currently have in order to control their numbers. If they don't approve a hunting season then SSS.

WOW......there's some serious opinions here with good ideas on both sides. Not that the gov't would be open to many of them considering the majority of those who represent us most likely don't spend much time outside the city. And that in most cases, what their constituents want is not what they feel is right. That could be a debate in itself.

I feel as "thunderstick" mentioned that eventually there will be more wolf/human occurrences. And sadly, that is what it will most likely take for the gov't agencies responsible for this growing problem, to finally understand that there needs to be a change in their man't of the wolf. I have my opinions just like everyone else, but most of them have been stated earlier by others here and obviously there are a few here that feel that their way is the only way. No need to fuel those who can only debate an issue using offensive language that gives them some sort of perceived intimidation. And which is counter-productive at state and federal discussions of the issue.

One thing is for sure, if you venture into wild places where you or your loved ones could be preyed upon, you should be armed, assuming you know how and when to use it appropriately. Period. It should be no different than the laws of concealed carry. If your life or those around you is threatened with great bodily harm, you have a right (obligation) to protect yourself or others. It may not be the total answer for all situations, but in most of the lower 48, a firearm and a person who can use it can stop the majority of attacks. I've been among bears but didn't feel threatened. I've been watched/followed by a mountain lion and it’s not a pleasant feeling. It appears they have become a little more brazen these past few years here in the Rockies and no doubt it has something to do with the expansion of cities into the more remote areas. And short of any laws stopping this expansion, I know I will do my part to avoid aggressive encounters but will also not be intimidated out of the woods by overly aggressive animals or politicians, and will protect myself and those loved ones with me, regardless of any haphazard laws passed by those unwilling to suggestions of meeting half way on the issue. But the fight for changes to these laws must continue.

quote:

Anyone with me on this or am I just an extremist, liberal bunnyhugging fag?

Pretty much describes the pro-wolf folks!

I say let nature take it's course. The wolves kill off the other canines to eliminate competition. That's the natural order. Reintroduce the wolves and see if they can take their place as top predator. The only problem is that chair is currently being occupied by an animal that is not quite ready to give up his spot on the top of the food chain. ME!

There is no need to control the game population with wolves. Hunting laws can be loosened up, seasons could be lengthened, and fees could be dropped. Here in WI, we are constantly being told that the deer are overpopulated and then they raise the license fee. Instead of lowering the fees or even giving the tags away, they come up with brilliant ideas like Earn-a-Buck. I know at least a dozen hunters that stayed home two years ago because they didn't want to play by those rules.
Trouble with the reimbursment for wolf kills on livestock is sometimes you don't find the carcus. Besides that, how much milk do you think a Holstein will give after it has been chased around the pasture all night by a pack of wolves? What about the weight run off of the beef cattle. How do you reimburse that? There isn't room for them here anymore than there is in Indiana, New York, Virginia or Florida. Canada and Alaska is where they belong. Next thing you know they'll be bringing in grizzlies too.

Yes, all these states had wolves forced on them by outsiders. That's a done deal and you can't go back in time. Now you have two choices. Either come up with a plan so you can hunt them but not to extinction, or have them totally protected.

You're not going to outvote the 98% of the population that gets all its info about nature from Animal Planet. A lady jogger was killed by a female cougar in the Sierra foothills a couple of years back. The cubs got 10 times the money from people all over the country than went into the trust fund established for the lady's kids. Do you seriously think these people are going to be persuaded that wolves need to be eliminated so hunters have more deer to hunt? The "the only good wolf is a dead wolf/SSS" crowd is only going get them to press the feds to never let your states have management control.

I know you think that all "californicators" are the same, but do you think most people outside of SF & LA wanted cougars completely protected? You're wrong if you do. Besides the attacks on people that make headlines cougars kill a lot of livestock, keep deer populations down, and threaten to exterminate desert bighorns. But the people who have to live with cougars can't outvote the big cities.

If you like losing, keep doing the anti's work. Talk and act just like the "mean, nasty hunters" Animal Planet and Disney say you are and make sure the feds move to keep wolves protected.

quote:

The "the only good wolf is a dead wolf/SSS" crowd is only going get them to press the feds to never let your states have management control.

Maybe, But if the SSS crowd take care of the issue states are not going to need any management control. If management control means the same kind of Piss Poor management that is already in place for Big Game who the hell needs it? As for the Lion issue out west, SSS applies there too!

I can put you in touch with several people who have been arrested for practicing SSS on their own land inside the Plumas National Forest. They thought they were taking care of the problem, too.

quote:

Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:
I can put you in touch with several people who have been arrested for practicing SSS on their own land inside the Plumas National Forest. They thought they were taking care of the problem, too.

Just curious, How did they get caught and what was their punishment?

They got caught because they told too many people too much. They were my uncle's neighbors who had a small ranch down the road. Like a lot of people on this board, they weren't shy about letting people know what would happen if their livestock got killed. Then a cougar killed their colt, and they told some people about that. They told a few people about what they planned to do about that. So anyway they waited to see if the cat came back. It did, and they shot it. Bits and pieces got back to the DF&G guys, who went out and found where the bodies were buried, so to speak. Find a dead colt that had been killed by a cougar, find a dead cougar, put two and two together. It wasn't too hard for them to put it together.

I don't know what happened to them. The CA DF&G was willing to cut them some slack because they could have gotten a depradation permit wih no problem if they just had take the time. They weren't willing to let them off entirely, though. But I moved to Texas and them my Uncle died so I lost track before the case was settled.

Like you guys have said, it's not wide open wilderness down here anymore. It's hard to keep a secret so you have the three S's mixed up. It's shut up, shoot, then shovel. Don't advertise to everyone who's willing to listen (or read your posts) ahead of time about what you're going to do IF something happens to your animals, etc. It just makes it easier for LEOs to figure out who to talk to if they get a few pieces of the puzzle.

I wasn't aware depredation permits were available to civilians to kill cougars in CA.

That stupid law need to be overturned. Pretty sure the DF&G has had to kill 3-4 cougars in Northern CA in the last two weeks. They are becoming a serious nuisance and danger in populated areas.... not to mention what they are doing to our fauna.

They need to open a season for them here to reduce their numbers to a better level before they cause any more damage.

Depredation permits aren't hard to get. About 60 lions are killed a year now, about the same as the brief period when they weren't protected. Of course, about 215 were killed a year when CA paid a bounty on them up until 1963. Believe it or not, Ronald Reagan was the guy who first put a moratorium on cougar hunting as governor in 1972.

They were not paracticing SSS very well as you stated they told to many people about it.

One as to tell no one,

The only way two people can keep a secret is if one of them is dead.

It amazes me that any true sportsman would advocate using SSS when it comes to wolves, grizzlies or any other endangered species. We are a Nation of laws. If we do not agree with a law we have avenues available to change those laws in a legal manner. The US Congress could have easily stopped the proposed wolf re-introductions by ammending the USFWS funding bill to exclude any expenditures of funds for wolf re-introductions. They didn't act. Consequently, they gave their tacit approval to the re-introductions. Since approximately only 25 to 30% 0f Idaho residenrts purchase hunting or fishing licences it is not clear that a vote in Idaho on whether wolf re-introductions should take place would have found a majority opinon against re-introduction.

Advocating SSS just gives the antis and greenies cannon fodder to attack hunters as Neandrathals that shouldn't have a say in wildlife mangement.

The reasons given here for SSS are the same ones used by those that spike trees to stop timber sales, those that destroy animal labs to save animals, pour red paint on women wearing fur coats and destroy logging equipment to stop timber sales. All are wrong and do their cause more harm that good.

Since law enforcement can easily track any internet address back to it's owner, it wouldn't surprise me if statements posted here end up appearing in court as eveidence of willful intent of violation of the law in any court case against against posters. Remember, killing endangered species means a felony conviction and that means a loss of firearms owning privliges among other things.

Have a nice day!

465H&H

tragic story all the way around,guys loses his dogs/family members to wolves,guy spends the rest of his life not knowing the companionship of a dog because of a dog bite at 12.the wolf will never be wiped out again even if you opened the season 24/7/365.thats the reason for wy wolf policys dual classification, on the wilderness they are trophy game,sell a few tags to the non-res outfitted hunters and regulate the kill w/ a mortality quota,all other areas of the state it is listed as a predator to be shot and trapped at will.controls the population of wolves that are killing stock and pets.ask anyone from b.c. or ak; a shot at and hunted wolf is a crafty sob.you see their tracks, you hear the howl but you are damn lucky to see the critter with or w/o a gun in your hand.wyoming refused to have wolves reintroduced i believe montana and idaho also.and the feds went to jellystone to do their dirty work and scotchhobbled the states fish and game until the numbers required even the feds to do something.admittedly i'm kinda proud that my chunk of the country is wild enough to support a wolf and at the same time stick to their guns about how we want to handle things in OUR STATE that my friends is the the nutcutting,so you flatlanders from back east and way out west who don't agree with a bunch of fella's who get fired up after not just hearing the story but seeing the pics and go to talking creation,beauty of nature,dude was asking to have his dogs riped to shreds,bullshit need to hunt a hole.i will defend me and mine no matter how many of "them" there are left,and that even includes wolves,used to be you would get you nose mashed flat for being in a mans buisness but in our kinder gentler natoin that is sooo politcally correct we've made that a violence issue but i guess that protcts the fags and those afraid of dogs

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
It amazes me that any true sportsman would advocate using SSS when it comes to wolves, grizzlies or any other endangered species. We are a Nation of laws. If we do not agree with a law we have avenues available to change those laws in a legal manner. The US Congress could have easily stopped the proposed wolf re-introductions by ammending the USFWS funding bill to exclude any expenditures of funds for wolf re-introductions. They didn't act. Consequently, they gave their tacit approval to the re-introductions. Since approximately only 25 to 30% 0f Idaho residenrts purchase hunting or fishing licences it is not clear that a vote in Idaho on whether wolf re-introductions should take place would have found a majority opinon against re-introduction.

Advocating SSS just gives the antis and greenies cannon fodder to attack hunters as Neandrathals that shouldn't have a say in wildlife mangement.

The reasons given here for SSS are the same ones used by those that spike trees to stop timber sales, those that destroy animal labs to save animals, pour red paint on women wearing fur coats and destroy logging equipment to stop timber sales. All are wrong and do their cause more harm that good.

Since law enforcement can easily track any internet address back to it's owner, it wouldn't surprise me if statements posted here end up appearing in court as eveidence of willful intent of violation of the law in any court case against against posters. Remember, killing endangered species means a felony conviction and that means a loss of firearms owning privliges among other things.

Have a nice day!

465H&H

Hope nobody takes my earlier post about the guys down the road from my Uncle's place getting busted for SSS as an endorsement of the practice, or as a lesson to be smarter about it than they were. It's not only a stupid and counterproductive thing to do but it's not as easy to get away with as some people think.

It doesn't matter if you shut up after you practice the first two S's. These guys just let to many people know ahead of time what they were going to do despite the law. And they could have gotten a depradation permit from the local wardens immediately after inspecting the carcasse and stayed inside the law.

If you make it known that you're going to gut shoot wolves so they can crawl away and die a slow painful death, who do you think is going to be on the list to interview when your bunny hugging neighbor reports finding a dead gut-shot wolf on his vacation property while on his summer visit from Kalifornia.

If the radio-tag on wolf no. 11 of your local pack starts sending out the "mort" signal, is there anyone who knows you who might tip off the feds for reward money up to $50K?

Actually, killing an endangered species isn't a felony but a misdemeanor. You can be fined up to $25K, though, and will lose your hunting priveleges. And if you move the animal from where you shot it to the hole you dug for it you can be fined up to $100K, because transporting an animal you illegelally acquire or possess under under federal law is a violation of the Lacey Act.

I don't have a dog in this fight (no pun intended). I live in Georgia and cannot imagine what this man went through or the severity of the wolf issue. If those wolves did that to my dogs, I personally go kill everyone of them, legal or not.

That said, this reminds me a lot of the alligator issue in Florida/Georgia. Years back, the environmentalists wanted to protect the alligators and claimed they were endangered. Which was funny, because everytime I went fishing I saw a slew of gators.

When the alligator was put on the endangered list, the populations boomed to something fierce and more and more people had POTENTIALLY dangerous alligators encroaching on their property that could possibly threaten a child or dog.

Well, 3 years ago, they finally decided to have a hunting season on Alligators. Here gators are pretty harmless unless they start reaching sizes in excess of 10 feet. At that point, you can either get DNR to "Remove" the gator or I guess you could wait til the season opens and legally hunt it. Unless you poach it. Either way, whenever there seems to be a problem with a possible dangerous gator, the gator is removed or destroyed most of the times in legal ways. But that gator has to be deemed a threat to people.

That said, you couldn't get a gator removed if it was in the middle of the Okefenokee Swamp because at that point, your in its territory. Sometimes you have to respect mother nature even when you least expect it.

I am sensitive to this man's plight. While on one hand he seemed to be out in the wolves territory and this tragic event happened... on the other hand, damn the wolves to hell and lets go kill them.

I like to look at this issue in another way entirely. The wolves made it personal. If that man wants to go kill the wolves, that's his business and I won't hold it against him, and I doubt he would get convicted for doing it either.

China Fleet Sailor is correct and I was wrong. Killing an endangered species is a misdeameanor and not a felony per se. You can be fined up to 10K for the violation and in addition have to pay a civil penalty of up to 25K. The judge can also add a 1 year jail sentence on top of it. If you move the animal across state lines it is then a violation of the Lacy Act and that is a felony. In Idaho if LO can prove that a conspiracy was used between two or more individuals then that would also be a felony under state law. I;m not sure about that under federal law.

Sorry for making the above mistake.

465H&H

According to the USFWS, willfully killing a gray wolf without a permit or under the 10J rules in Montana, Idaho or Wyoming carries a potential $100000 fine and is a FELONY.......

IV

Idaho Vandal

Do you have a reference for that?

465H&H

I read somewhere that a piece of real sharp spring steel about 3 inches long roll it up in a real tight ball stuff it in a piece of meat apearently when wolves eat it they digest the meat then the steel unroals and shreds their guts kinda indicicive on what you get but wont kill deere like a snare there are all kind of dirty tricks if you care to find them that dont require sss or you to be present for the event .
I have heard that some people leave these balls of suprise in fresh wolf kills but I would never do it myself that might be illegal

quote:

Originally posted by CRUSHER:
I read somewhere that a piece of real sharp spring steel about 3 inches long roll it up in a real tight ball stuff it in a piece of meat apearently when wolves eat it they digest the meat then the steel unroals and shreds their guts kinda indicicive on what you get but wont kill deere like a snare there are all kind of dirty tricks if you care to find them that dont require sss or you to be present for the event .
I have heard that some people leave these balls of suprise in fresh wolf kills but I would never do it myself that might be illegal

Crusher1

With all do respect that is a stupid idea. What will keep a mtn. lion, bear or my hunting dog or the local cattlemans dog from eating that meat?

465H&H

i just read in a swedish hunter magazine and i quote

socialdemocrat politiacan Jan emanuel johannson want to put out 40 russian wolfes in sweden,.amongst in Blekinge .Earlier their minister of agriculture opened for setting out foreign wolfes to get fresh blood amongst the inbread (redneck) wolfes. There is even an suggestion from kd lesder gøran Hægglund that setting out russian wolfes in -Sweden for to have hunting on them if problemsd occour .

But the politician Jan e Johannsson has never made a secret of being hunting hater . those who want the right to guard their hunting dog against against wolf attack doesn tget any support from him.

you cant always give the wolf the blame comes to collision between humans life and the wolf. the one who lets his dog free in the wood makes him self guility in animal harrasing..

and this man is a member of the swedish parliament.

yikess

465 h&h

not a damn thing

not my idea just read it somewhere so no offinse taken

and ill repeat would not do it myself but fail to see the diff in this and puting poison on the kill like the ranchers do now

Well, I haven't been flamed on a website for some time. I work in San Francisco, but was born and raised in the State of Jefferson, for those of you who know where that should be and what my politics are, or for those of you who don't, in a small lumber town at the foot of Mt. Shasta in No. California. My sister has lived in Idaho for 30 years and for over 40 years I've been spending almost all my free time in that state hunting, fishing and hiking in what is now the Frank Church, on the Middle Fork of the Salmon and in the Chamberlain Basin.

When wolves were "introduced" into the Church (I put introduced in quotes, because there were already wolves in small numbers there and had been for years), they quickly settled and bred basically on top of our ranch (which is an "inholding" grandfathered into the Church at the time it was formed). The country was ideal for them. It was not too severe, was heavily forested which made them hard to spot, had an excellent trail system in place for them to use and had a large Elk population. The first thing that happened is that the coyote population took a huge dive, along with the population of an endangered specie of squirrel that inhabits the basin. The next thing that happened is the Elk herd and the Moose herd were greatly diminished. The Elk certainly quit talking during the rut (it's hard to bugel when you end up with a pack of snarling canines on your ass if you do) and what remained, took off and left the country. We were left with a lot of wolves and few elk.

Since that time, however, and especially over the last few years, things have appeared to change. I don't know if whether the Elk have gotten used to the wolves or their numbers are increasing, but the Elk hunting has gotten very good again in many areas of the Middle Fork and the Chamberlain basin and even the deer hunting (that had been in an even steeper decline) is improving, notwithstanding the Elk, the wolves and a changing habitat, as bitter brush dies and is replaced by grazing plants and not deer browse in many areas.

Are there too many wolves? Yes. They should be managed and hunted (Wyoming needs to get on board so Idaho and Montana and Wyoming can start doing that) and I don't like what happened to those dogs (it should not be a crime to shot an animal trying to kill yours any time, any place) and I would have shot them in a heart beat. Laws or no laws.

I first saw the account that started this thread when it was sent to me by our General Manager. After I read it, I did some research on what existed in the "academic" world on wolf predation and its affect on game populations. Just google "wolves and affect on ungulate populations" or similar topics. What I found was surprising to me (I assume that the studies were true academic studies and not plants by the wolfies). What they seemed to indicate, was that wolves for the most part tended to prey on the very young (like all the other predators including cats and bears, but not man) and the very old. Unlike man and cats, who tended to prey on "mature", but not old animals. For example the "average age of elk killed by man and cats was around 5-7 years old, but those killed by wolves tended to be over 12 years old. The studies also seemed to indicate that they had much less of an impact on the deer herd than cougars (which we can attest to in California).

I also found studies that said as others have in this thread that wolves view other canines as competitors and kill them as a result, but that if dogs have bells or other noise making devices on their collars wolves will leave them alone. Interesting thought, although one I'm not inclined to try with my golden this year in elk camp, he'll just stay home (which is a bummer).

For me, the bottom line is that the wolves are here to stay (that battle has been lost), but they, along with the other predators must be managed in the wilderness and in areas where they are a threat to man or livestock, eliminated, just like any other predator or threat. I'll let a rattlesnake on the trail or a mamba in the bush, pass. But in my camp or in my yard, they are dead, dead, dead. Anyone who hunts in Idaho or any other western state where it is permitted should buy a cat tag and a bear tag and do their part if they see either, while out hunting other game. More of us (myself included) should also hunt cats in the winter and bears in the spring to help out the elk and deer herds. Although I don't see much sport in shooting a cougar out of a tree, more of it needs to be done. One cat kills almost as much game in a year as pack of wolves, and black bears kill more elk calves and deer fawns than wolves do.

In California, sportsmen's groups and true conservation groups need to band together to repeal the ban on cat hunting and replace it with a proposition that puts all wildlife management in the hands of the DFG (although they are generally pathetic) and removes it from the "ballot box" once and for all. If packaged right, along with good funding for habitat preservation, this is not as far fetched as it seems, and as soon as someone gets taken on Mt. Tam or in the East Bay Regional Parks (which will happen sooner rather than later) there will be more than enough momentum for this (nothing like a mugged liberal to create a conservative).

What we can't do is just engage in heated rhetoric that plays into the hands of the anti's and we need to put our money where our mouths are in the name of true conservation, not preservation, which is what the anti's want. A distinction that Capstick made very well in many of his writings. Soap box out...

A good read of a Scientific study by Dr. Rolf Peterson on wolves on the Kenai Peninsula.
The name....Wolf-Moose Investigations on the Kenai National Wildlife Refuge. by Rolf O. Peterson.

One interesting stat..."The average kill rate in winter was 1 moose per pack every 4.7 days." He considers a "Pack", anything over 2 wolves.
My calculator tells me that's 77.65 moose per year, per pack.
The non winter wolf diet consisted of 81% adult moose. The winter diet was 71% adult moose.

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Originally posted by Crimson Mister:

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Originally posted by IdahoVandal:

So, by the same logic we ought to ban guns to!

My step-father was murdered with a 12 gauge shotgun at 10 yards (twice in the chest).

I had to go ID him so that my mother wouldn't

That's just what a lib would say. Problem is, the shotgun didn't hunt your step-father down. The guy that pulled the trigger did and I'm all for hunting him into extinction, too!

If anyone would read his whole post and actually comprehend it you would know that he was NOT calling for banning shotguns or any other guns.
Lot of people seem to not be able to comprehend anything though. Must be an internet thing.

I like dogs mostly and have a couple, and I dont believe in mistreating them. Having said that a dog is never the equal of a child period.
Calling for the eradication of all wolves is just plain stupid. If God didnt want wolves here he wouldnt of put them here, but he did so end of story.

[/QUOTE]If God didnt want wolves here he wouldnt of put them here, but he did so end of story.[/QUOTE]

Thats not quite the end of the story for me. He also put mosquitos here and thats a really useful creature now isn't it?

I'm a duck hunter and have been since I was 11 years old. So I know the mosquito is a useful creature.

What do you think the ducks and geese that nest on the tundra in northern Canada and Alaska eat? They feast on the insects. I've been up there for a late summer caribou hunt and I agree that swarms of mosquitos up north will drive you crazy, just like they drive the caribou crazy. But come fall and I see flights of birds coming in to my decoys I'm glad those mosquitos were there.

Was out in the desert scouting for quail recently and ran across a Mexican grey unexpectedly. Had I been ready he wouldn't have gone slinking off as he did.

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What do you think the ducks and geese that nest on the tundra in northern Canada and Alaska eat?

Well I'm just tickled that the ducks and geese have lots of mosquitos to eat up North. I'm quite sure that if there were some sort of world wide calamity and every mosquito on the face of the earth became extinct, I would be extremely happy and the ducks and geese could find something else to dine on. I'm sure they eat mosquitos but thats not the mainstay of their diet. Death to all mosquitos!

Fish and Game introduced the CANADIAN WOLF, when in fact, we had local, low key wolves, already in Yellowstone, and other locations. The Canadian wolves have either killed, or breed with the local wolves, and the result has been a much more aggressive wolf population. The canadian wolves simply shouldn't be here, nor should they be protected by our government's misplaced importing of a non-native, distructive, spieces, but, once a government agency does something, they don't want to admit a mistake, and, will protect it, at the expense of the citizens. Such is this case. Ask Tim Sundles from Buffalbore, currently under federal prosecution, for something concerning wolves.

Illegal aliens, even if they are wolves, have no business here.

I'm kind of a dog lover, and, I really wonder why the poster allowed his dogs to run wild, without having an adequate firearm, to protect both himself, and his dogs? I'm not going to say anything harsher, considering the devestation I'd feel in this situation. Frankly, the graphic pictures of his dogs make me sick, and, I hope they are Photoshoped.

I'd also wonder if certain speices, such as Great Pyreeness, might be effective in protecting hunting dogs, and families.

I'm afraid that this mistake is going to end up with many dead humans, many dead animals, and, as we are famous for, a screwed up ecological system, due to government meddling.

If I was living in a wolf area, I would certainly be carrying something more powerful then a stick.

I certainly hope that the local brown bears enjoy wolf.


GS