nelson,

Ah so what, trouble is sometimes a good friend. I do my fair share of long range shooting with silhouette competitions where we shoot out to 500m offhand without a sling. Once you shoot past the 300yrd mark, influences on the bullet (not to mention the shooter) start making big differences. I have shot across valleys and seen thermals that were impossible to detect (you have to know they are there, meaning you have to know every valley you will shoot across) toy with the bullet very significantly. A silhouette shooter who I shoot with was recently 5th in the nation. He once blushed when he admitted killing his pronghorn at 350yrds, blushing because he thought that shot was close to being too far. Last year kneeling I hit my Elk 3 times at ranges of 375/400/425 yards (it was spooked by another hunter who shot his at 100/250 yrds, gut shot the 1st). It was a depredation hunt and the wildlife officer knew my abilities and practically MADE me shoot. Two of the shots were within 2" of each other (tight in the shoulder crease) and the other hole in the hide was 12" further back (1st shot was quartering away). I could brag about marksmanship, but if not MADE to shoot, I would not have. IMHO, the long range deer snipers are not helping us make this a noble undertaking.

Deke.

In Alberta they had a saying, "When you hunt with a thutty thutty, your out to wound deer and get ate by bear..."

Always made me chuckle when I heard that but personnaly I like the 30/30 and have used it for deer hunting several times in my lifetime.

I preferred to use my 7mm Mag for Elk...

The bull VanZwoll shot is nice but what a cheezy picture... utterly staged and phony looking!

Of course a 30-030 will kill elk (or whatever)... personally, I'd rather use a 308 carbine.

Canuck, great reply.

Madgoat, I agree with you to a point. I got to go for Elk my first time this year. Moved all the way to Montana to do it, still had to drive a long ways to go. I have to say if I were on the trail to fill the freezer I would have bought a half a beef.

I think most of us hunting now on limited income, even if we live in a state with elk and somewhat close to them will agree that you don't get many chance to get to one. I'll take a bigger rifle with some added reach to take my trophy and meat.

The responsible part of the equaton is knowing when not to take the shot. Even if you only have a weekend to do your hunt. I know I haven't shot my 300 beyond 400 yards in "controlled, ie: range" conditions. I sure wouldn't test that on game.

I just feel to much tension in the cartridge. I'm only 24 and it seems a lot of people try to justify to much. If you can kill an elk with a bow I think almost any firearm could do the same, in it's "cartridge's"range.

I'll still take my 300 out over the 30-30 though. I have limited time to hunt and a lot more time to practice. A luxury many others don't have but as all the old guys I shoot with say, it's practice and then a good gun. I hope I didn't piss anyone off but just my thoughts.

Taylorce1, Just thought I'd say I love this question. To me the question is will a 30 caliber bullet traveling at a given velocity (whatever that is for a 30-30 at 100-150 yds) kill an elk-again given proper shot placement & bullet construction. The case or gun has no baring on the outcome once the bullet leaves the barrel.

I personally wouldn't think twice about using a 30-30 on elk given your max range.

I always find it amusing when a new cartridge comes out and the rags report on it ,finding out that a 180 grain, 30 cal bullet @ 3000 fps (or whatever) kills things. Go figure???

Since everybody is having a go at writing their opinions on this subject on this forum I'll give it a try also.

In today's hunting I see the 30-30 and 32 Special as specialized tools that work great for BG hunts with dogs and for hunters wanting to add that special challenge to their hunting not unlike a pistol hunter. For a guy getting a week or two to hunt every year and wanting to maximize his chance of success they are a poor choice. Your only chance for a shot may come at 300+ yards or in heavy brush at short range. These old 30ish cartidges just don't have the range or power to be successful in either case.
Even with a 30-06 and premium bullets I would not hesitate a minute to take either shot but with my 32 Special I'd let it go.

I plan on taking my 32 Special antelope hunting next year but I know the property will allow me to get 75-100 yards from a nice goat if I'm patient. Would I take it on a elk hunt? Not in million years.

Mark

I hunted in the Little Hills in the Piceance Creek area of NW Colorado from 1984 thru 1999 and saw elk taken with a variety of calibers including 30-30,30-06,300wm,7mm mag and a 6mm Ruger #1 but my friend(ex usmc vietnam sniper) took head or neck shots.

quote:

I hope I didn't piss anyone off but just my thoughts.

I think you've got your head on straight, rainman. I agree entirely with your post.

Cheers,
Canuck

Rainman, well said!

Since the dawn of elk hunting, I would wager that more elk have been dropped by the .30-30 than all the .300 whatever's combined.



"Dropped" and wounded and left to die a long, lingering death.

quote:

"Dropped" and wounded and left to die a long, lingering death.

Clifton, can you please provide me with some evidence that animals shot with the .30-30 are only wounded and lost. If you can do this I might start to believe that this cartridge is just to small for elk. Where did your dislike of this cartridge come from? Any poorly placed shot will leave the animal to suffer regardless of caliber, so why will the .30-30 only wound an elk?

quote:

Since the dawn of elk hunting, I would wager that more elk have been dropped by the .30-30 than all the .300 whatever's combined

I bet you'd lose that wager considering the conservation history of elk. There were maybe 1000 in Colorado in 1910 and it wasn't too different in other states. CO now has at least 300,000 elk and is harvesting about 60,000 a year. It's a similar story in other states, where elk were extirpated or damn near so by 1900 and were then re-established and the harvest numbers now far exceed the elk population of the early to mid 1900's.

I'd wager that if we researched it a bit we'd find that the elk harvest of the Western states of just the last 10 years exceeds that of the elk harvest in those same states from 1900 to 1960.

And I'd wager that the 30-30 trails the various 300 Mags. in total elk taken as well as the 30-06, .270, 7mm Mag., etc.

quote:

There were maybe 1000 in Colorado in 1910 and it wasn't too different in other states.

Maybe the reason there were only 1000 elk left in Colorado in 1910 was because the 30/30 was so good at killing them between 1894 and 1910!

Couldn't resist.

Cheers,
canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

There were maybe 1000 in Colorado in 1910 and it wasn't too different in other states.

Maybe the reason there were only 1000 elk left in Colorado in 1910 was because the 30/30 was so good at killing them between 1894 and 1910!

Couldn't resist.

Cheers,
canuck

Funny, could the set up get any better?

My 11 year old son didn't seem to have any trouble dropping this 5x5 with his Youth 30-30 and Remington 125gr. PSP Core-Lokt.

quote:

was because the 30/30 was so good at killing them between 1894 and 1910!

Nah, the populations were pretty much trashed before 1894.

Kinda like considering white-tailed deer, there were maybe 500,000 in 1900 (or 1894 ) and they were non existent in many states. Now the population is at least 36,000,000 (believed higher than pre-Columbian population) and the harvest exceeds 6,000,000 a year.

As far as white-tails, elk, pronghorn antelope and black bear go we have higher populations than grandpa ever did.

You can kill elk with a 30-30 or a .22 or a .458 Win Mag. Place the bullet in the right spot and you will kill the elk.
However, the 30-30 is not as versatile as the .300 win mag or something with a little more "ummfff" to it.

Unless you are getting very close and are very good with the 30-30, save yourself some agony looking for a wounded elk and use something with more knockdown ability and a better selection of premium bullets...

Sorry to bring this one back up guys but I read something I thought deserved to be in this post. I don't agree with everything Chuck Hawks writes but I did like this one and I really liked what he said about the .30-30. I do think I would take a shot out to 225 yards like he states but thats me.

quote:

Not every hunter needs a long range cartridge, however. The two most popular rifles in the world, the Winchester Model 94 and the Marlin 336, are both fast handling lever actions deemed nearly perfect for woods and brush country hunting. And both are chambered for the relatively mild but effective .30-30 Winchester cartridge. Out to about 225 yards a .30-30 is all that is needed to bag most of the world's antlered game. The .30-30 is a living legend, one of the most effective big game cartridges ever designed, and simply had to be included on our list.

Here is the rest of the story or something like that.
12 Key Rifle Cartridges

One year in Colorado a young man and his elderly partner hiked up from the White River to the ridges overlooking that area and walked into a 5x bull elk which he shot with a 30-30, took them 2 1/2 days to get it all out.

Let us compare some factory ballistics.

All from Federal:

30-30, 170 RN energy at 100 yards 1354 ftlbs.
308, 165 TBBC energy at 300 yards 1438 ftlbs.
300 Win Mag 180 TBBC energy at 500 yards, 1332ftlbs.

So IF I/YOU had the choice of shooting at an elk at 100 yards with a 30-30, 300 yards with a 308, or 500 yards with a 300 Win Mag.....

I would take the 30-30 at 100 yards every time.

What would YOU do???

When I was a boy, looked up to the men with 30-30's.
They were the men who got game everytime. They were men of the woods. They knew the importance of bagging game and keeping it best for consumption. They shot 30-30's well. Most of them only shot the rifle 4 or five times a year. Somewell, though, all got the game. It was brought home, and shared with others.
Most of the time, it was a deer. The real prize was an elk.
I remember a friend of my dad bringing in an elk he had shot.
He used a Winchester 170gr silvertip. I was so impressed because the bullet lodged in the elks heart. I still have the bullet. The elk was killed somewhere near Houqium.
It was hard hunting for these men. they did it for meat. Hunting only happened when the mill was closed.
They, I far as I know. NEVER POACHED. They were so fine of sportsmen. They knew the limitations of the 30-30.
That's all they had then. Then, someone got an Enfield 30-06. One, then got a Remington 721 in 270. That started a revolution. Soon, it became scanduious for one to shoot game with a 30-30. 'These "ol lumber boys, been killing deer and elk forever in the timber , but weren't satisfied more the most part.
Dad got a 30-06, Ed, a 30-06,Bernie a 270 and such.
'Ol Frank, or the "Bandit" as we calleled him kept his 'Ol 38-55. I kept dads ' ol 30-30.
We went on for years. Hunting. We took much game with all these rifles. Never once, criticisem leveled toward the 30-30.
It was as good as it gets, hunting in the blacktimber.
Don't be fooled. The 30-30 is a fine cartrige. It will
The 30-30 is a timber rifle. Will always be and forever.

would hate to clean and cut up again, all the game my mother killed w/ a 30-30.i know of 1 moose,25 or so elk and uncountable deer and antelope,that didn't know the 30-30 wasn't enuf gun.out to 250 yds.

One of Montana's old outfitters and all time great guy was Howard Copenhaver. Now gone to his reward he shot many head of game from deer to sheep to Grizzly bear with a 25-35 as he didn't like recoil. I can be done but needs someone who is sure of their shot. Gianni.

FOsteology, where is that pic taken?

Anyone read Roland Cheeks book on elk hunting? Seems he was partial to a 30=30 that traveled through at least 3 generations of elk hunters.

While he might not be the greatest elk hunter of all time, I would say he was a good deal better and more knowledgable than the majority of folks on this forum.

Brent

I'm sorry, but I see a lot of people playing with their asses on this post. A dirty thirty is a fine gun within the confines of what a SADDLE RIFLE was intended to be. Certainly it can take elk sized animals or even larger. HOWEVER, whether it's ethical or not depends on your personal ethics. The .25-20 was used by Jim Jordan to take his world record typical whitetail, but how many of you would choose THAT round to hunt whitetails today. The mob uses .22 for hits and I've seen deer poached with .22 rounds into the lungs where the deer ran less than 100 yard before dying. I know of guys killing grizzlys with their hunting knife and I saw a video where famous archer, Bob Foulkrod was hunting polar bear. His first shot was off and he tried to sneak up an ice pressure ridge to put in a finisher. The bear caught his scent and immediately charged a startled Foulkrod who turn to instinctively run. At about 150 yards, his Eskimo guide lifted his trusty .22-250 and rolled the attacking bear as if it were a rabbit. Now just how many of you would go after polar bear with .22-250? Lewis and Clark killed western grizzly's with the .45 flintlock Lancaster/Pennsylvania rifle. Mountain men decided that the .50 Caliber Hawken would be a better match.

What you CAN use and what you SHOULD use are two separate issues.

The point is what you can and should use is something you have confidence in that will put a bullet where you want at a range and situation that you are confidient shooting at. to do this you have to know your huning area thogoughly, and have tested your loads and shot enough offhand at various conditions and ranges. If you do then no internet expert should tell you it can't be done. If you don't you should not want to do it just because grand-pa did it.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Since everybody is having a go at writing their opinions on this subject on this forum I'll give it a try also.

In today's hunting I see the 30-30 and 32 Special as specialized tools that work great for BG hunts with dogs and for hunters wanting to add that special challenge to their hunting not unlike a pistol hunter. For a guy getting a week or two to hunt every year and wanting to maximize his chance of success they are a poor choice. Your only chance for a shot may come at 300+ yards or in heavy brush at short range. These old 30ish cartidges just don't have the range or power to be successful in either case.
Even with a 30-06 and premium bullets I would not hesitate a minute to take either shot but with my 32 Special I'd let it go.

I plan on taking my 32 Special antelope hunting next year but I know the property will allow me to get 75-100 yards from a nice goat if I'm patient. Would I take it on a elk hunt? Not in million years.

Mark

I wasn’t going to join in on this thread but you mention of the 32 Special made me start typing. Let me say first I am not an elk hunter, birds, especially waterfowl, being more my style. But back to the subject: Several years ago, we stopped to see an old cowboy in Colorado that had the biggest bull elk I have ever seen, drug up beside the road waiting for the truck. I guess he was a cowboy; he was wearing a big hat and riding a horse. He also had an old Winchanger 32 Special stuck under his leg. When one of the other on-lookers [who did not have an elk, by the way] remarked that the 32 Special wasn’t much of an elk gun the old boy sort of smiled and said something to the effect it didn’t make much difference what you shot as long as you shot ‘em where they needed to be shot! I thought that pretty well summed it up – and he did have a big, very dead bull.

Well, I just got a copy of Sports Afield an there is an article about handgun hunting for BIG stuff, cape buffalo, big bears and all sorts of elk sized critters and such. Wow, all killed with rigs that never generate over 2000 fps,(most generating bearly 1500 fps.) and all use projectiles of lower SD and weight compared to rifles with the same bullet dia.

How is it that a 500 S&W or 454 Casull HANDGUN is OK for cape buffalo but anyone using a 45-70 RIFLE is a raging jacka$$?

I've killed two cow elk and a bull moose with a 44 mag revolver at under 100 yds, A 30-30 rifle wouldn't work? Hun? Please explain.

Poorly placed shots at stupid distances, the cause of many a rifle cartridge's "failure".

Theory is great, but real life often provides a disappointing exception to the best theory.

Hunter, let me clue you in on something. "Common sense" isn't common at all anymore. Within realistic expectations, what you've described is dead on. But put a "rifle" in the hands of 90% of the Bozo's we share the woods with and watch them shoot outside the realm of realistic expectations. Here in Delaware, we are a shotgun state, and we have not outlawed damned buckshot. You would not believe the numbers of Yahoos who come into my taxidermy shot telling me they have no problems shooting at a deer at 100 yards. When I explain that the "pattern" on a 12 gauge at 100 yards must be over 30 feet and that there are only 12 pellets in that circle, they chirp, "yeah, but it only takes one pellet." How do you argue with that ignorance. I wouldn't shoot a deer with a .357 outside 20 yards. My .460 reaches out as far as the .30-30 and actually carries more punch than the "dirty thirty" at those ranges. My .500 has a bit less range without shooting rainbows.

I've only killed elk with a bow so I'm not at liberty to truly argue about the 3030. BUT, I have seen what it will do to deer, AND what it DIDN't do to some big Missouri whitetails.

I read a few comments on the 3030 and it's more about being confident with it, shot placement, etc. Well, of course these things are all very important, and prudent. BUT, Because there are better tools for elk, why not use them, shoot them enough to build confidence with them etc.???

I saw a guy shoot a nice 6x7 bull elk with his 308, factory 150 grain bullets. It took a long ass time for that elk to die and the hit was perfect, the shot about 80 yards. It took 2 more shots at about 30 yards to kill it.

These debates will never go away, and most of the time they're quite entertaining. But I'll take my faster shooting rifles out before I'd use a 3030, and this is for 2 main reasons:

1. I don't even own a 3030.
2. Because I'm very comfortable with my 300RUM, and everything smaller.

If I had to pick a side, I'm with Roof on this topic.

I guess I should qualify my answer a bit. I hunt elk with a 9.3x62 with 286gr. NP's, before that it was a 35 Whelen and the lightest caliber I've ever used was a 308. Would I use a 30-30? not unless it was the only thing avaiable.

IMHO coming from personal experience as a guide, over a decade, and having shot 20+ elk myself, I'd rather see someone use a 30-06 or a 270 than a 30-30. Why? Shot placement with good penitration etc. are the keys to uccess. "More" rifle is almost always better given realistic limitations.

Now, I've used a 338 Win Mag and it works great, my No.1 choice, IF AND ONLY IF you can shoot it. My 9.3 and my Whelen weighed in about 1&1/2 pounds less than any 338 I've owned and are personal preferences. Do they have less range? Maybe, but I don't think anyone has any business shooting at an elk over 300 yds under most circumstances. (I know all the arguements about the big 300's 340's Wby etc, SAVE IT. This is my personal opinion based on a fair amount of actual experience.)

Back to the 30-30 issue. I would rather have a hunter with a 30-30 that can shoot it well, pie plate every time, off hand at 100 yds, than some guy that shuts his eyes every time he jerks one off with his 338. Ask yourself which hunter is more likely to wound and fail to recover an elk?

If you are travling from elkless country for a once in a while elk hunt and you own a 30-30, bring it as a back up (sh*t happens). Ask around and see if you can try out a 270, 30-06 and a 338 or whatever. Be realistic, the 30-06 will probably do perfectly. Now buy it, spend a least as much on a good scope. Buy one of those "box of ammo" deals (It'll shoot better than you will in field positions.) After you've put 300 practice rounds through it wokr up a load with 200gr NP's and go kill an elk.

There is NO substitute for correct shot placement, PERIOD.

quote:

Posted by HunterMontana:
Back to the 30-30 issue. I would rather have a hunter with a 30-30 that can shoot it well, pie plate every time, off hand at 100 yds, than some guy that shuts his eyes every time he jerks one off with his 338. Ask yourself which hunter is more likely to wound and fail to recover an elk?

There is NO substitute for correct shot placement, PERIOD.

Just thought this was worth repeating.

Give me the 30-30 @ 100 yards vs. the ultra-mag @400 anytime. The Dene people of northern BC and the southern territories live on moose shot either with the 30-30 or the 303 British. They look at the 30-06 as a grizzly gun. Those who hunt kill more game in a year than most on this forum in a lifetime. Does that tell us anything?

Not fond of lever guns,
But give me a neat little small frame Hagn Falling block in 30/30..tip it up with 150-165mrx,165gnNF.now that would be a very sweet, satisfying and effective little rig to hunt moderate range Elk with.I would not hesitate.

Truth is 30/30 will kill effectively most game most people hunt over most common ranges that people mostly hunt them at,just that most people dont like to admit it, Im mostly done here.

This is my .30/30 story. In 1967, I was 10, my DAD and his buddies took me on my first trip to Colorado. They were members of the Bear Mountain Hunting Club. The Bear Mountain Hunting Club was a retrofitted yellow school bus. We slept on military bunks mounted to the wall. Pulling a Willy's Jeep behind. My DAD passed away three years later so this is a vivid memory. I had grown up in East Texas squirrel, rabbit and quail hunting. We raised bird dogs and caught lots of crappie and catfish. To the story: My clothing for the trip was my wool baseball uniform under blue jeans and blanket lined denim jacket. I have not been so cold sense. Morning three my DAD drops me off to sit between a rock and tree on a boat cushion. I have a Winchester Model 64 .30/30 with a reciever sight. I still have it. There is time right after daylight that is colder that predawn, maybe you have experienced that. About an hour after daylight I see movement and a 4x3 Mule Deer is moving right to left at about 40 yards. I was shaking like a leaf. Elbow on the left knee, hammer back, half a breath, and boom. Mule Deer down, I run to the Deer and almost collapse, hyperventilate and have to sit down. I couldn't believe it. I knew my DAD wouldn't be long. As I am sitting on my deer listening for the Jeep, I hear something else thinking it is others, I look up to a spike ELK 10 yards from where I was sitting. So hammer back and snap. Nothing. Lever down and up. And a few seconds later I have a Mule Deer and a spike Elk laying about 40 yards apart. I will never forget it and the way those men and my DAD made me feel. I have been hooked ever since. Sorry to bore you. I have a lot of rifles to choose from now. But I have a soft spot for the .30/30. gduffey

bwest, I'm not sure what point you intended. Necessity is the mother of invention. The cavemen killed more wooly mammoths with rocks than all of us combined. Organized crime kills more people with .22, .25, and .380 than other guns I suppose. Native peoples have always lagged behind because of simple economics. I eat beef that's killed by electric hammer. Does that prove anything?

quote:

Originally posted by bwest:
Give me the 30-30 @ 100 yards vs. the ultra-mag @400 anytime.

well, how bout comparing apples to apples. You have a trophy bull elk at 111 yards (forget the 400, lets make it fair, same distance, 2 different calibers) near a canyon and you know you can make the shot, have plenty of time, and you really don't want this animal to run anywhere.

Your choice, and you shoot both comfortably and have confidence in both, 338 RUM stuffed with 250 grain bullet of your choice, or that 3030??? What'll it be now?

Good story gduffy. Nice memory. I'm not stating that the 3030 cannot perform, it will, no doubt. I prefer something with more juice in case that elk is 225 yards away and not 40. That's the difference between possibly getting your elk or not.

Gduffy, great story. Thanks for sharing.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

well, how bout comparing apples to apples. You have a trophy bull elk at 111 yards (forget the 400, lets make it fair, same distance, 2 different calibers) near a canyon and you know you can make the shot, have plenty of time, and you really don't want this animal to run anywhere.

Your choice, and you shoot both comfortably and have confidence in both, 338 RUM stuffed with 250 grain bullet of your choice, or that 3030??? What'll it be now?

Not to stir this more but, Just because you're using a bigger gun/slug doesn't always mean the outcome will be better.
I've see well hit elk go a little ways before giving up. I've heard of elk being hit with big mags that still traveled a ways. A spine shot with a .30-30 would be prefferable to a heart/lung with the .338 RUM in this scenario. Marksmanship will rule the day when the chips are down.

My fav for elk is a very accurate .338WM because it is effective and makes bigger holes to let in the cold air.

I'd not hesitate to use a .30-30. But I'd definately hunt within my limits for the gun. Those limits are very different from the .338WM, and they are different from the 7mm RM that I've been know to use.

It'll always come back to the loose nut behind the trigger. Nate