I play around on a few forums like this one and sometimes I find myself questioning what people say.

quote:

You can kill an elk with a 30-30 or a deer with a .223 but, I wouldn't want to try it.

The context of the discussion was that the U.S. factory loaded 8mm ammunition was underpowered and compared to the .30-30.

I'll agree that after 150yds the .30-30 starts to loose its luster. I don't think that if I had an elk in my sights within 150yds that I would be afraid to drop the hammer on it.

I took a Win 94 on an elk trip about 6 years ago strictly as a backup. Where I was hunting required a min of .270 and all I had was a .243 and the .30-30. I borrowed a .30-06 for the trip and wound up shooting my elk at 25+/- yards. Kind of made me wish the I was carrying my 94 that day.

Just wondering if any of us hunters have taken an elk with a .30-30. Kind of makes me want to take mine this year just to prove it can be done. I'm not hunting for a trophy my tags are for cows, and I just think it would be fun to harvest one whith this American classic.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
I play around on a few forums like this one and sometimes I find myself questioning what people say.

quote:

You can kill an elk with a 30-30 or a deer with a .223 but, I wouldn't want to try it.

The context of the discussion was that the U.S. factory loaded 8mm ammunition was underpowered and compared to the .30-30.

My wife's brother used to say a 30-30 was all a reasonable man needed in the Maine woods, and he meant moose as well as whitetail ( and partridge ).

A couple of years back a friend and I were in Wyoming hunting elk, up high enough to be into ice underfoot. He fell a couple of times, the last time backwards and onto the scope on his 30-06, which bent. Discouraged, we went back to town for Saturday night bath, wondering what to do next. He got his 30-30 with 4X scope out of the truck, and we went elk hunting Sunday afternoon. Monday morning we woke up with elk bugling on both sides of us, and went to get one. We found his 170-grain flat-nosed bullet just under the hide on the off side, a nice little souvenir.

I was just thinking about this very thought this morning. I went out to do some shooting and to verify the zero on my elk rifle, a 300 winmag, shooting 200 grain NP's. I took my Marlin 336 30-30, that my dad gave me thats been all worked over and has a williams peep sight, and I started thinking that with how nice it handles and shoots, if it would work for elk.... there is no wat its replacing my 300, because I would hae to see an elk out of 30-30 range and only have the 30-30, but it did get met to thinking...

Whenever I hear of a 30-30 I remember being 12 yrs old on my first hunt. In Oregon it seemed to be a law that all boys start hunting with a 30-30. I would dream of the day I could hunt with a bolt action gun, in a "huge" caliber like 30-06 or even a 300 mag. Funny thing is though that 30-30 didn't stop me or many others from killing deer or elk.
I must admit my 30-30 was traded for a 06 many years ago, and I cant think of a single time that I would of rather had it with me than a bolt action.
For hunting thick country it has its place.
KC

The 30-30 is kind of underrate IMHO and if you hunt an area where you'll get shots inside a 100 yards, I don't see why a 30-30 wouldn't be adequate. I know that every male in my family prior to me killed his first big game with a 30-30 and my relatives have shot lots of big deer.

What is the difference between a 30-30 and a 30-06? 300 fps?

Chad I know exactly what you are talking about!
To give you a little background, when I was a kid in Oregon many of our neighbors took Elk with 30/30's and 32 Specials and trust me I never heard any of them talk about one that got away or being under gunned.
When I was just about old enough to start deer hunting my grandpa brought out an old Winchester 1894 in 30 WCF and "let me take care of it" for a few deer seasons to keep it oiled up. When he left it with me he also told me a few stories about the rifle. My grandad had owned a lumber mill in Canada way up the Kispiox valley in B.C.
Many people that worked for him or came to visit the lumber camp would barrow the rifle to "get some meat". That old gun had taken Mountain Goats, plenty of Moose, a Caribou or two, Black Bears, Wolves, Wolverines and at least one Grizzly. When my grandpa brought it back to Oregon it was resigned to just shooting deer.
I was one proud kid knowing that "the" gun I was toting in the woods for my deer hunt had taken such exotic animals as Caribou Mountain Goats and Grizzly Bears. Every time I carried it or cleaned it or just sat in my room rubbing it conjured up memories of the past hunts it had been on. The gun is still in the family and some day my boys will "rub the gun" and hear the stories again.
But back to the meat of the post. I to have a 94 that I break out and shoot from time to time and I keep threatening to take it elk hunting on some of those dark timber hunts this year I just might do it. At just around 125 yards or under an elk would be dead and I wouldn't feel under gunned in that situation at all.
I just read a post this morning about a guy who took an elk with a 25/35 improved which isn't a towering powerhouse over the 30/30 by any stretch.

Thanks for the posts, I'm glad that I'm not alone in feeling the .30-30 is a very capable rifle when used properly. I probably will not use it this season but it always makes me go hmmm.

My grandsons use a T/C Contender carbine in .30-30 (also have one in 7-30 Waters)for deer hunting and cow elk. Since its a single shot, I load spitzers in it for the slight increase in performance. Although no one has taken a bull elk with our group. Several cow elk, WAITING FOR THE PROPER SHOT, have been taken. Got a son-in-law who only has a Win 94, uses the spitzer ammo with one in the chamber and one in the magazine. He feels it does fine. Me? I dig out the .338 WSM, or 7mmMag, or...

I use the thudy-thudy's brother the 35 Remington for my elk woods gun. It's a Marlin 336. I use handloaded 200g RN Hornady's powered by 37g of IMR 3031. My Marlin is unscoped with a green tru-glo front sight. I've only killed 2 cows and a small raghorn with it all under 100 yds. All were one shot kills except my last cow 2 yrs. ago took 3 hits thru the ribs before she dropped. Other than that my go to gun is my Whelen this year when i'm home on leave in October.

Whats the difference if you kill an elk @ 300-350 yards with a 30/06 and the 30/30 @ 100 yards? Both bullets have about the same energy right????? I am only using an approximation here, and admit I have not researched the ballistics tables before making that statement, but I should be "close" on that.

quote:

Originally posted by Hank H.:
Whats the difference if you kill an elk @ 300-350 yards with a 30/06 and the 30/30 @ 100 yards?

Not much difference, 300 fps mentioned earlier in the thread, although for distance shooting it makes some difference. It still surprises me to compare those calibers' balistics with a 7mm magnum at 300 yards.

A Mainer we know, shot his furthest buck with his 30-30 from his back porch, about 500 yards. He was fooling around, didn't really expect to hit anything from that distance, and was actually a little miffed when he realized that a quiet morning had turned into a work day, dragging it up from the creek bed and cutting it up.

Count me as one who started out with a .30-30, an old Savage 99 that my grandfather got in about 1926. With peep sights, I took moose, white-tail and mule deer, elk, and a couple of black bears, not to mention prairie dogs, coyotes, and I forget all what else.

It wasn't until much later that I learned that the .30-30 is too underpowered to do that

On my upcoming moose hunt I'll have a '94 in .30-30 as a back-up rifle. I don't expect I'll wind up shooting one with it, but from what trusted friends have told me, should the need arise and as long as I put one in the vitals at under 100 yards with the .30-30, I'll have a long day's work ahead of me after pulling the trigger.

I started hunting also with a 30/30.. and a Remington 870 shotgun with deer slugs... I hated the shotgun because it had no range to it...and didn't like the 30/30 much more....until the night I saw my dad shoot a buck across a clearing on Ft. Bragg NC, and the sun had dropped down already, but it was still light enough to see the buck at 150 yds or so...
But what made me want to carry the 30/30 at that point, was the 2 to 3 feet of flame that shot out the barrel after my dad had pulled the trigger!!!

Be it the 30/30 or a full batch of rounds used in the Contenders, folks always seem to think they are just great for elk out of a HandGun yet add another 6 to 8 inches to the barrel and put a stock on them and make a rifle out of them and then they become inadequate?

As Snellstrom speaks above, about his granddad's 30/30.. I ended up with my granddad's 30/30 also.... and yes it didn't have the history of Snell's... but it was a 1935 Vintage Marlin.... some ass hole stole it out of my truck one night in 1990...I just hope he did it to commit suicide with, the schmuck...

As an adult, I love the 30/30 and the lever actions so chambered.. I am awfully glad I got nostalgic a few years ago and bought a Model 94 Legacy with a 24 inch barrel...and also bought a stainless Marlin in 30/30 when they first came out.. getting one on sale at Christmas time...

But near the top of my dream list of vintage rifles I would love to have, would be a Winchester Model 54 in 30/30 in great shape....
with an Accompanying Model 54 in 35 Remington..

and will I am day dreaming... a couple of Remington Model 30s in 25 Rem, 30 Rem, 32 Rem and 35 Rem....

And since the 6.8 SPC is around now, I have seen Rem Brass in 30 Rem for sale again....and a 20 inch heavy magnum barrel on a Stainless Ruger action, chambered in 30 Rem, has been on my mind.....

As has making a barrel in 219 Donaldson Wasp, for my Mauser bench gun....

And Elk at 100 yds with a 30/30? Well I took one cow elk in Montana that weighed 650lbs on the hoof, and hung at 405 lbs at the checkstation... shot with a 30/06 downloaded to 30/30 speeds....

and I carry a 30/06 a lot of times down loaded to 30/30 speeds, with ballistic tips in them...and that includes going for Oregon Elk in the brush.... just that the Elk haven't cooperated with that one yet...

Not only in 30/30s, but we don't need rifles with MVs of 3500 fps and 4000 ft/lbs of energy to have a good elk round....IN fact I am carrying a 30/40 Krag out looking for bear a little later this week....220 grain RN at 2000 fps...

cheers
seafire

I wouldnt do it. I know it CAN be done but the real question is is it a good idea? I dont think so. I have more respect for Elk than that.

An 06 will shoot 180 grain bullets roughly 500 fs faster than a 30-30 will a 150 gn bullet, Huge difference.. and most 30-30's need to use flat points or rn's which means they loose their heat faster than a spitzer.

You guys will do what you will, but I think that using a 30-30 on Elk is flirting with the animals misery and is kind of inconsiderate.

I had a 35 Remington and on a few occasions thought about its use on Elk. I realize that it and the 30-30 are cousins and similar in power. I concluded that it "MIGHT" be ok out to about 75 yds with carefull shot placement, but not much farther. The ability to handle heavier slugs gives it a bit of an edge over the 30 IMO. I liked that gun a lot, but alas, I felt it just a bit underpowered for Elk and its gone now and Im looking forward to trying out a 358 Win on Elk next season.

Happy hunting gents.

using a 30-30 on Elk is flirting with the animals misery and is kind of inconsiderate.


Amen, brother! The days of the .30-30 for elk and moose were back when game was plentiful and hardly anybody cared if one got knocked down and got back up and went over the mountain. Betcha lots and lots of elk and moose died long, lingering deaths with .30-30 slugs in 'em, mostly shot by guys who couldn't shoot worth a damn and took looooong shots anyway.

So you wouldn't shoot an elk at 400 yards with a '06 loaded with 180's? A 30-30 at 200 is pretty dang close to the '06 at 400.

The internet is an amazing place. The same ballistic figures for the same diameter bullet that work out of one rifle at 400 yards suddenly won't work at 200 yards from another?

Part of being a "hunter" and true "outdoorsman" is being able to get the desired results because of your skill. If you can't make a 30-30 work for elk at reasonable ranges, then you won't be able to make anything else work either.

Most game is taken at less than 100 yards by the average hunter. If the 30-30 at 100 yards isn't capable then what is?

Having more range and power is nice but accusing people who want to use it of being reckless or inconsiderate is proof of little actual knowledge. Nate

quote:

Amen, brother! The days of the .30-30 for elk and moose were back when game was plentiful and hardly anybody cared if one got knocked down and got back up and went over the mountain. Betcha lots and lots of elk and moose died long, lingering deaths with .30-30 slugs in 'em, mostly shot by guys who couldn't shoot worth a damn and took looooong shots anyway.

Where did you get your proof on elk and moose dying long and lingering deaths at the hands of a .30-30, I want to know what you are reading that I am not? Who taught you to hunt, if I shot an animal and wounded it and didn't try to track it down, well that was just an ass beating waiting to happen. Most true sportsmen and hunters would never let a poorly shot animal have a long and lingering death, they would track that animal and put it down.

Have you ever used a .30-30, I doubt it or you wouldn't make statements like that. Within the 100-150 yard range would you notice the difference between a 150/170 grain bullet out of a .30-30 and 150/180 grain out of a .30-06. I don't think the elk, moose, deer, or black bear would be able to tell you.

Knowing when and when not to shoot is something that all hunters should learn. There are a lot of hunters who use large calibers and magnum rounds to compensate for low percentage shots. I will not disagree there are more powerful rounds than the .30-30. The .30-30 is certainly more powerful than a traditional black powder rifle or a bow and arrow, but each one is still being used on big game with great success.

Just because I don't have a big rack on the wall or a few pounds of meat in the freezer doesn't mean I didn't have a successful hunt. As long as I was enjoying nature and learned something about the game I was pursuing then I had a good hunt. I'm sure that all hunters today in North America are not hunting for survival, we hunt because we enjoy it.

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
So you wouldn't shoot an elk at 400 yards with a '06 loaded with 180's?

No! I wouldnt! I would get about 100 yds closer and then shoot it.

A smallish Elk at close range with a thuty thuty.. OK, I guess what ever makes you warm an fuzzy. A big hearty bull.. Why would you even want to think about it? Thats just a bad Idea!

quote:

A smallish Elk at close range with a thuty thuty.. OK, I guess what ever makes you warm an fuzzy. A big hearty bull.. Why would you even want to think about it? Thats just a bad Idea!

quote:

I'll agree that after 150yds the .30-30 starts to loose its luster. I don't think that if I had an elk in my sights within 150yds that I would be afraid to drop the hammer on it.

quote:

I'm not hunting for a trophy my tags are for cows, and I just think it would be fun to harvest one whith this American classic.

We were never talking of long range hunting, but using the .30-30 within its limits. I also stated that I wasn't to be hunting any trophy bulls this year. I've yet to find an elk that is bullet proof.

Just a question what is your Ideal Elk Caliber? All I was trying to state is that a .30-30 with bullets designed to work with it is a capable rifle for elk. It is the hunters job to know the game he/she is after and the capabilities of their weapon weather it be pistol, muzzle loader, rifle, or bow.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
So you wouldn't shoot an elk at 400 yards with a '06 loaded with 180's?

No! I wouldnt! I would get about 100 yds closer and then shoot it.

A smallish Elk at close range with a thuty thuty.. OK, I guess what ever makes you warm an fuzzy. A big hearty bull.. Why would you even want to think about it? Thats just a bad Idea!

So a '06 at 300 yards is a better elk killer than a 30-30 at 100 to 150 yards?

Way to many elk and deer have died at the hands of riflemen toting a .30-30 to back this up. I'm certainly not saying it's the end all to elk hunting. There are threads on here about using a .243W, I'd take a .30-30 over a .243W any day.

My point is that the great '06 becomes a .30-30 at some point in distance, as does the .300 WM. Knowing your rifle and knowing when to pull the trigger is the difference. People hunt with handguns for crying out loud! Now you're saying a .308 dia bullet at 2000fps isn't going to work?

There are better, but it will and does work.

My personal favorite elk medicine is a .338WM shooting 250gr bullets. It's not super flat shooting but it works very well in a wide range of situations. I can take shots with it I would pass up with other cartridges.

I guess I just don't understand how quickly someones choice can be flamed so quickly. There would have to be some considerations made for range that may not be an issue with others. Snap shooting a mature bull as he's bailing out of a bed may not be the best idea if the angle is wrong. But that little carbine comes up quickly and it may be ready to go quick enough to actually place a better hit.

I was spouting off a bit with the '06 at 400 yard analogy, but on this and other boards I'm sure, people talk of 4-500 yard shots all the time. And like I said, most game is taken inside 100 yards. My closest elk was probably no more than 12 yards away. Nearly any firearm would have worked as well. Nate

A lot of armchair experts here. I don't even wanna touch on archery for elk if a 30-30 won't do the job! It's like the "experts" over here in the big sandbox saying the .223 green tip fmj doesn't work at close range on insurgents. I've seen em' get up and run with a three rd. burst in the torso. I've seen a cow elk run a half mile from a 338 partition behind the shoulder It boils down to shot placement. A 170g Core-lokt or Partition is as lethal as you place the shot. I'd pull the trigger on my 35 Rem. w/o scope out to 150 yds. After that the front sight covers a lot of hide and then it's a crap shoot. Nuff said....

I've never hunted elk, so I can't offer any "real life stories."

My dad got one in ~1946-47 with an open sighted 7x57 Mauser 98, mannlicher stocked rifle with a 175 grain factory load. That was in Colorado. He was a geologist out our Leadville, working for NJ Zinc back then.

Anyway, here's a link to a decent story about 30-30's and 35 Remington for hunting. It includes elk. It's mostly about the 35 Rem, but the guy reports taking elk with a 30-30.


"Why I like the 35 Remington."
http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=11266

Ummmm, hate to break it to the less experienced (or successful) folks. I have a load of pictures from near the turn of the century (the last one) of successful elk hunters with their prizes. Umm, quite a few are packing (these are all levers) 38-55's, 44 WCF's, 30-30's, 25-35's, oh I see one Model 1895, probably a krag. I know this because the names of the folks and what they were packing are written on the back of some. There are a lot of dead elk in these pictures. Then maybe thee fella's snuck up on these big bulls and scared 'em to death, like "BOOO!". But I doubt it. Oh the one fella has a Model 8, that would've been nifty. Ya, if I had a 30-30, and a bull at a 100yds, he probably wouldn't be breathing so good, and I'd be sweating on the way out. Apparently those old elk didn't realize their killers were under gunned. Figures, everyone one know big game in the old days were to stupid, plentiful and weighed down with 200' on bone on their heads,

I think a lot of people now a days read the hunting mags, and believe anything short of a .300 WSM is underpowered for deer.

A 30-30, used correctly, works for elk. Same with a mag. I have seen plenty of gut shot deer from a magnum, but few from a guy with a 30-30. Mainly because those with the 30-30 (where I hunt at least) are mature and confident enough to have good shot placement.

Facts that can't be argued.

A 3030 @ 100yrds will kill as well as many notable Elk rifles do at a distance of 300yrds.

A hunter has a better chance at hitting the vitals at 100yrds than the same hunter at 300yrds.

Proper use (tough heavy 170gr bullet, not much over 100yrds, and in the vitals) is the ONLY key.

The question is, can one be disciplined enough to use properly.

Deke.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

Just a question what is your Ideal Elk Caliber?

I usually like an '06 or 35 Whelen, and as I mentioned Ill be using a 358 Win next year. Not because I think I need it, just because I can. I consider something like a 7/08 or 7X57 something of a personal minimum that "I" would want to use for Elk. Im not a magnum fan if thats what your wondering and as I stated before, I know it CAN be done with a 30-30 within reasonable range, but Big Nate was talking 200 yds and I read that and thought Big Bull and up comes the red flag.

I realize as well as anyone that the frontier was basically tamed with muzzeloaders, but that was then and this is now. Me, Im not too fond of tracking. One shot one kill is a good objective IMHO.

Incidentally I hunted Elk with a friend last year that used a 30-30. I think its the only rifle he owns, I offered to let him use a 280. He declined and I let it go at that. To each his own.

Tex21

The difference between the 30-30 and 30-06 is more like 500 to 600 fps, a huge difference. With that said, the 30-30 will work very well if kept within 200yds and the bullet is placed properly.

I wouldnt hesitate to shoot an elk, or even a moose with the 170gr partition factory load.

quote:

I usually like an '06 or 35 Whelen, and as I mentioned Ill be using a 358 Win next year. Not because I think I need it, just because I can.

That was my point exactly on using the .30-30 because I can. I'm not disagreeing with you there are better calibers for hunting elk these days. I'm just saying that if I stick to the limits of the rifle and cartridge that I know I could take an elk with confidence.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

quote:

Amen, brother! The days of the .30-30 for elk and moose were back when game was plentiful and hardly anybody cared if one got knocked down and got back up and went over the mountain. Betcha lots and lots of elk and moose died long, lingering deaths with .30-30 slugs in 'em, mostly shot by guys who couldn't shoot worth a damn and took looooong shots anyway.

Where did you get your proof on elk and moose dying long and lingering deaths at the hands of a .30-30, I want to know what you are reading that I am not? Who taught you to hunt, if I shot an animal and wounded it and didn't try to track it down, well that was just an ass beating waiting to happen. Most true sportsmen and hunters would never let a poorly shot animal have a long and lingering death, they would track that animal and put it down.

Have you ever used a .30-30, I doubt it or you wouldn't make statements like that. Within the 100-150 yard range would you notice the difference between a 150/170 grain bullet out of a .30-30 and 150/180 grain out of a .30-06. I don't think the elk, moose, deer, or black bear would be able to tell you.

Knowing when and when not to shoot is something that all hunters should learn. There are a lot of hunters who use large calibers and magnum rounds to compensate for low percentage shots. I will not disagree there are more powerful rounds than the .30-30. The .30-30 is certainly more powerful than a traditional black powder rifle or a bow and arrow, but each one is still being used on big game with great success.

Just because I don't have a big rack on the wall or a few pounds of meat in the freezer doesn't mean I didn't have a successful hunt. As long as I was enjoying nature and learned something about the game I was pursuing then I had a good hunt. I'm sure that all hunters today in North America are not hunting for survival, we hunt because we enjoy it.

Bravo; nicely put.

My departed brother and I hunted side by side for many years out here on the Plains. I was a wet behind the ears teenager with a healthy dose of confidence. I carried a 30 06 and thought I was the coolest guy in the field because of it. My brother carried an open sight Savage 30 30 bolt gun that he purchased in Texas before the Army dischagred him after his tour. He killed as many or more deer as I did. Being armed with just a 30 30 didn't handycap him, even out here on the plains. We just had to work in closer.

I don't know if I would want to use a 30-30 on elk. My Mod 94 has downed a few whitetails but they are a lot less substatial than an elk. If you are out and see a record bull are you going to be as sure of the 30-30? I'll take my 300 RUM or 45-70 anytime, -06 is better too.

I would use a 30/30 on elk in a heartbeat, but my max range would be 150 yards.

Since 95% of my elk hunting since 1996 has been with a recurve, and considering I have turned down a number of shot opportunities over my limit of 20 yards with that bow, I think I'd have the restraint to stay under 150.

I think most hunters that understood the limitations of their equipment would do the same. Unfortunately, there are clearly lots of guys that don't fully understand the limitations of their equipment, or even their skills for that matter.

Back to the 30-30, Wayne Van Zwoll took a couple elk last year with LEVERevolution ammo. See one here.



Cheers,
Canuck

Thanks Canuck,

Very impressive bull elk, checked out Hornady's page from your link. There was a very nice bull moose taken in Maine with the 30-30 lever evolution ammo as well.MOOSE

Its all been said before, but I will say it again. The 3030 used within its limits is better than a 300 Super Duper Ultra Mag used beyond its limits. 3030 with soft nosed bullet of 170+gr that stays together under 150yrds is just fine. The 300 whatever fired at a running Elk @ 300yrds or at a stationary one at 500yrds is a disaster 90% of time since 90% of the hunters with these cartridges are not up to the task, the task being that they could not find where the Elk was to look for sign, would not walk that far to look for sign, if rumen or blood was found would not track it for two days until the gut shot beast was recovered. I have seen/heard the bad 300 scenario often, but not with the 3030 since those hunters KNOW their limitations. As for me, I practice alot, will take and make a longer shot under good conditions, but would prefer a short one with a 3030 any day of the week. I hunt Elk with a load that delivers 2000ft#'s at 375-500yds (depending on the bullet) or more yards, but do not look down on anyone that uses a cartridge with 1/2 that range if they keep shots within their range.

Deke.

With a quality/sturdy 170gr bullet I wouldnt hesitate at reasonable range with good shot placement.

Some people spend to much time reading "insert magazine of choice here" and not enough time in the woods.

quote:

Originally posted by Ropes:
Some people spend to much time reading "insert magazine of choice here" and not enough time in the woods.

I'd add the word "thinking" to your quote or maybe swap the word thinking for "in the woods"

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
Its all been said before, but I will say it again. The 3030 used within its limits is better than a 300 Super Duper Ultra Mag used beyond its limits. 3030 with soft nosed bullet of 170+gr that stays together under 150yrds is just fine. The 300 whatever fired at a running Elk @ 300yrds or at a stationary one at 500yrds is a disaster 90% of time since 90% of the hunters with these cartridges are not up to the task, the task being that they could not find where the Elk was to look for sign, would not walk that far to look for sign, if rumen or blood was found would not track it for two days until the gut shot beast was recovered. I have seen/heard the bad 300 scenario often, but not with the 3030 since those hunters KNOW their limitations. As for me, I practice alot, will take and make a longer shot under good conditions, but would prefer a short one with a 3030 any day of the week. I hunt Elk with a load that delivers 2000ft#'s at 375-500yds (depending on the bullet) or more yards, but do not look down on anyone that uses a cartridge with 1/2 that range if they keep shots within their range.

Deke.

You keep typing out words like that you are looking for trouble. The long range hunter posse are always on alert!

Since the dawn of elk hunting, I would wager that more elk have been dropped by the .30-30 than all the .300 whatever's combined.

The reason why folks don't use a .30-30 today is due to a couple of factors. The main one is folks hunting today are lazy slobs who hunt for horns rather than to fill their freezers. A guy who is hunting with feeding his family in the back of his mind is going to get after it a lot harder than the slob driving his pickup around the hills looking for a bull standing along the road. Back in the day, a .30-30 is all these folks could afford. Cheap ammo, readily available firearms...you're going to have dead elk.

MG