Long but worht the time.
http://www.independent.org/tii/content/pubs/policyrep/wolf.html

What are you thoughts??

This should be mandatory reading for those who are interested in or have an opinion on the wolf recovery subject.

This is exactly what I have been saying without being able to come up with the supporting data.

Common sense and a good understanding of natural replacement of animals and "how nature works" will tell you this wolf experiment will cause more harm than good.

Chapter 1 of the Hunter Education manual teaches about "surplus game" and how it is the surplus that hunters harvest. Guess what is going to happen to the "surplus".

You don't have to tell westerners there is an ulterior motive. We have known that since before we became a state.

For those folks who presented an opposing argument over on thefiringline.com, here is what I meant but was not able to state with all of the research and diplomacy. Here is that link:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=143479&highlight=wolf

Elkslayer, the wolves reintroduced here in Idaho several years ago --and uncontrolled-- are hammering our elk, deer, and wild sheep.

A wolf pack is Nature's perfect killing machine. They hunt 365 days a year. No restrictions; no limits; no licenses; no seasons; and no predators to hunt them. They breed like, uhh, wolves!

The object of the animal rights freaks, bliss ninnies, and anti-hunting whackos is to have these uncontrolled predators destroy so much of the wild game that they can then say, "Well, there aren't enough animals for you evil hunters to hunt, so... hunting is banned."

I say put them in all the parks in all the major cities of America, first... where they'll really be appreciated, and all the animal lovers can goooo, and gahhh, and oooooh, over them.

Ain't ever gonna happen, though. We're just gonna have more, and more, and more and more wolves....

L.W.

Last week I was in Livingston MT and went to Yellowstone Sports a local sporting goods shop.In their front window there was a picture of nine elk calves lying dead.there was a caption posted under the picture which said elk calves killed by wolves during a killing frenzy near Gardiner MT none were eaten just killed and left to rot.The Noble Wolf w/regards

Gophershooter, yep, I know what you mean. About two months ago, before Idaho elk (rifle) season, one of my hunting buds and I were up in the mountains in west central Idaho, scouting for elk season. We already knew that there were wolves in the area.

We ran across a U.S. Forest Ranger who worked that area. He told us he'd already found 15 dead elk calves, just killed by wolves and not eaten. Left to rot. The pack was teaching the young wolves how to hunt and kill. So they'd just kill 'em and leave 'em.

No telling how many dead elk were scattered around that the Forest Ranger DIDN'T find. He told us that there were 25 wolves in the pack in that area.

We didn't kill any elk, later, nor did the various hunters we talked with who hunted those mountains.

Also, the Idaho wolves have now crossed the Snake River into Oregon and Washington. (You Or. & Wash. hunters just guess what's coming your way!)

This "wolf recovery system" is absolute B.S. I say, No wolf season? Then no damned wolves!

L.W.

Thanks for the tip, gophershooter. I'll see if I can get a copy of that photo, not that it'll convince anybody here in a university town ...

Any idea where they got it before I go running all over ?

Redial

I read most of the article and saved it to my hard drive for further study.

A synopsis:
Wolf recovery is based on false studies.

Environmentalists lie.

The lackeys of environmental movement at United States Fish and Wildlife lie.

So what else is new?

Maybe it's time hunters across the country, indeed, internationally, since the issue involves Canada, band together to form a Wolf Control Committee to put pressure on Congress to put a stop to the BS of wolf introduction.

Redial;Call Yellowstone Sports and ask them it looked like something that had been downloaded and printed on computer printer paper their PH# is 222-5414 w/regards

To All Hunters-- Canadian Grey Wolves.

If you want to do something about this burgeoning problem which is going to eventually wipe out the game herds, you're going to have to get active and help fight the anti-hunters and bliss ninnies in the "Save the Poor Little Wolves" projects.

www.centralidahowolfcoaliton.com 877/669-6537

www.natureswolves.com

You'll find out more about what these Canadian Grey wolves do the the game herds, than you ever wanted to know.

Join the Central Idaho Wolf Coalition and help support the fight to get these killing machines either out, totally, or on the big game hunting season lists, so they can be somewhat controlled.

Those of you hunters who don't live in the west, and think you're immune, better think again. One of these days, the wolves will either migrate to your area, or, will be dumped there, by the anti-hunting organizations such as Defenders of Wildlife, U.S. Fish & Wildlife, Sierra Club, etc.
These left wing organizations have gigantic $$$$$$$ and we hunters have very little.

So, if you want to continue hunting, and want your children to have the opportunity to hunt, you'd better join in the fight.

L.W.

Aint this the shits



[ 12-17-2002, 05:43: Message edited by: michaelr ]

Although I am realativly new to the west. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is calculated and political manuver by the anti's BUT HERE IS THE REAL QUESTION

what are all you guys gonna do about it.. are we gonna sit here and type about how we oppose this or are we gonna solidify as one group raise some money and fight it.... do you care enough to sacrafice some hunting time now to work on this so you can hunt later or are your gonna hunt now and hope something happens...

I read the report in detail and the following paragraph is the guts of the wolf introduction program: (I left off quotation marks and removed distracting citations for clarity.)

(Get the part about "Ban all hunting.)

As University of Wyoming geography professor James Thompson recently noted, "wolf recovery is a �stalking horse� for the larger issue of land use change." Even environmentalists have admitted that "on the deepest level the issue of wolf recovery is not about wolves. [Instead] it is about control of the west". Simply put, environmentalists are using wolf recovery and the Endangered Species Act to run ranchers out of the country and to thwart multiple use of public lands. It is also a way for animal rights and antihunting groups to ban all hunting and use of wildlife. Is this what Congress had in mind when it passed the Endangered Species Act? There is no evidence to even remotely suggest that it is.

We and our allies should hunt and kill these wolves at every opportunity.

Civil disobedience is required when tyranny starts to overtake us.

If confronted by a fish and game officer, don't answer any questions. None. If you say nothing, they can prove nothing.

Disable thier vehicles if necessary. Never injure any personel doing thier job.

Varmint calls will work for wolves. Sponges soaked in bacon grease and left in thier areas will block digestive systems, killing them. Antifreeze left in small containers work, but will also kill other animals, so this is not the best. Large treble hooks with a large chunk of fat or other meat, suspended with heavy line and a wire leader from a springy sapling will catch and hold them until they can be dispatched, or will starve. Locate dens in the spring, and stake the pups outside the opening. Thier whines will bring in the adults permitting you to kill them.

These are nasty methods, but reflect ways used in the past by Fish and Game departments. Waiting for the Feds to change thier methods will take at least ten years. We don't have the luxury of giving the wolves that much time.

you guys make it sound like that where there are wolves, there is no game because the wolves kill it all.

hmmm, haven't got any exact numbers, but last i checked there were lots of wolves and lots of game in alaska, the canadian rockies, etc.

i just wish that wolves had been reintroduced as a game animal, with a limited season, etc. that way, (1) it would have been more controlled and (2) the reintroduction would have been hunter-supported as providing another game resource.

wolves & game populations can coexist, just as cougars & bears & game populations can coexist.

always remember that just the same as there is over-blown environmentalist propaganda, there is also over-blown anti-environmentalist propaganda. the truth lies somewhere in between. furthermore, neither the sierra club nor the audubon society has as their OFFICIAL stance an anti-hunting platform (although some or many of its members may be). In fact, there have been recent articles in Audubon suggesting that sport hunting is beneficial to the environment, particularly dealing with problems like suburban deer overpopulation, etc.

This past Sept I ran into a former wilderness ranger for the Cooke City area in said loacale (n of cooke, daisy pass/goose lake). We were hunting elk/deer, and he was hunting sheep. He told me of the devestation that the wolves had caused in the area. Where he saw heards of elk for years he now found none. He said he used to see 12-15 moose regularily on 3 day trips, but now he is lucky to see 3. On that hunting trip, I crossed 3 gizzly tracks, one moose, and no elk. The season was perhaps colder than usual, so this was not the cause. This ranger had no doubt this was due to wolves.

In town I spoke to an outfitter who had spent 10 days on horseback nw of daisey who said they had not crosses one elk track!! This area used to have a VERY high density of elk. There is almost no question that increasing grizzly and wolve populations are wiping out/pushing out these elk heards. Maybe a balance can be found in years to come, but we should expect to see some pretty poor hunting in the mean time.

I liked the idea of wolf re-introduction until it hit home (I knew ranchers would loose some cattle, but they usually have effective methods of protecting their lands). I didn't put much thought into the subject, and now I hear about dead elk calves being left to rot. And I have witnessed the territorial growth rates of these animals. I think we made a big mistake!

Mike

Don't forget that there is natural ebb and flow to predator/prey ratios. The wolves are just getting established enough to spread. Of course the Elk numbers are going to dwindle for the first few years. Eventually, they are going to have to allow hunting to control wolves, perhaps now is the time in some areas. One thing we'll all haveto get used to is that the Game herds aren't going to be the same as they were before the wolves were brought back. While we don't have the problem with big game here in Ohio, we still see the natural ebb and flow in smaller game species. Rabbits and foxes are a good example. Great rabbit hunting for a few years, then all you see is foxes for a few years. Food dries up and the predators move on or die of starvation. I can understand your frustrations, especially from the ranchers' point of view. When the elk disappear, the wolves just kill more livestock. But I don't believe that complaining about there not being enough Elk to hunt is going to get you anywhere(The wolves killed all the elk so now there are none left for me to kill). Again, sorry guys and gals I hope everything gets worked out and everything returns to a more natural state. Good luck.

News Flash!!! For those of you who think wolves can be controlled by "normal" hunting means, you are whistling in the wind. I've lived here in Alaska for 30 yrs. and hunted over much of the state. I've heard wolves howling hundreds of times, but have only seen them 4 time (and none of those times was I able to get a shot). Although professional trappers can help, wolf densities are best controlled by aerial gunning (Super Cubs and shotguns) and by the method orginally used in the western states to take out the packs - strychnine. You can imagine what the wolf protectionist think about those methods!

There is one factor I think has changed and I haven't heard anyone speak about.

The west of today differs from frontier times and is different from the Alaska of today (or I believe ID, WYO, and MT is different enough to qualify as not having the same situation as Alaska) nearly ALL of today's traditional wintering grounds are settled in nice little 5 acre ranchettes with 1 to 16 (or more) million dollar homes on them.

Check this out if you think I'm blowing smoke -

http://fmp.jhrealty.com/FMPro?-db=www.fp3&-lay=All&-format=browse.htm&-view

This has concentrated the game animals and does not allow them to spread out up and down the valley floors to avoid the resident wolf pack. (It also concentrated the wolf packs).

Some of you need to drive these areas and take a look at the development that has occurred in the last 20-30 years out here.

This isn't your grandpa's Jackson Hole any more! or Cody, Dubois, or Pinedale etc., etc.

How about it all you folks who have lived in Idaho and Montana for awhile, have the valley floors been converted to the second homes for the rich and famous?

Has the winter habitat shrunk when compared to the times you went out with grandpa in his '53 chevy pickup and he got his elk in a hay meadow with a .300 Savage?

[ 12-18-2002, 21:44: Message edited by: Elkslayer ]

As I've noted before, if you read the threads both current and archived, you'll find NO support from those who live here. Wonder why?

Somewhere between here and there, as with all second-hand accounts the story morphs to fit whatever the teller wants to convey. If folks don't want to swallow that it's a serious issue that Westerners are prepared to fight over, they move the story in another direction.

There's a difference between reading the police report and standing ankle-deep in a crime scene.

Elkslayer raises a valid point - one with even farther reaching issues. The discussion on that matter will be noisy too.

Point is friends, don't discount another's report just because it isn't what you want to believe. When you can bring compelling firsthand data to the table that contradicts our daily observations, we'll happily consider it.

Redial

I do notice those who seem to like wolves so much don't have them in thier back yards.

Congratulations on them reaching Iowa. I hope you enjoy them. I have two brothers living there. I'm sure they will both consider them good sport.

You guys... WAKE up your missing the point....

Ihave been on other sites like this and heard the same 'ole crap ..poor me... no game.. been in bars and supper places... same crap.. bad wolves.. poor me..

I like the Wolf BUT .. there are TOO many of them...they need to be controlled.. ( hunted )

They were introduced because of the tree huggin greenies and rich freaks.. in a nut shell....they lobbied their points to congressmen.. got them on their side and got legislation introduced.. THEY RAISED THE MONEY TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN.... we will get nowhere if we all don't put our differences aside band together find ways to make some money .. GOTO or write our respective congressmen and get legislation passed to hunt them... does NO GOOD to sit here and type and bitch.... WAKE UP!!! at least write or call you own congressman..
every hunter who comes through our lodge doors gets the same speach.. if you loved the hunt here in wyo. write or call your congressman and tell him to support gun rights.. now it includes.. help the west with the growing wolf problem...

Yeah, the little Green Nazis know best. They should do a bit of self examination, and have a psychologist do a bit of examination also.

When these freaks threaten a persons life, who is concerned about feeding ones self and family, they are obviously someone not to be trusted with firearms, a vehicle, or raising children. They live in a world of half truths, or no truths.

Wyomings' draft plan on wolf management is the best so far, and Montana is considering following suit.

Zieg Heil, Brent

Amen...

I suggest that some of you read "The Wolf" by L. David Mech. You may learn something about prey-predator relationships.
As stated in an earlier post, the problem is not totally the wolf but development in critical habitat areas which leads to decreased game populations.
We are the problem!

Elkslayer, for 20+ years I lived with wolves in Northern Minnesota. I have been out west numerous times, including hunting elk in the Grey Back in WY. I have been in Michigan and saw the propoganda put out by all sorts of people and media when wolves were released (and eventually shot) in the Upper Penninsula.

I'm sure you believe all the stuff you see on the news, and perhaps some of what you see is even true. But wolves have lived with elk for what? Half a million years for sure. May a couple million.

Unfortunately, nature is not always pretty, and doesn't always make for pretty pictures. I guess that's life, and death. Sorry but only in Disneyland do elk and tigers and bears and wolves and deer and .... all get along eating grapes. In the real world, things are just a bit uglier - and that's just the way it is.

For what it's worth, not much to most folks on this argument I suppose, you should look at old photos of Yellowstone back when it still had wolves. Look at the backgrounds, the landscapes, the trees. You will see a much different Yellowstone then because predators changed the behaviors of herbivores and thus the types of vegetation. We see the same sort of thing here. Predators do stuff - important stuff - and sometimes, it upsets weak stomachs on the 6 o'clock news, but that's life - and death 0 in the real world.

Brent

Ok Brent, let me put it to you this way, I really don't think you are grasping this.

I and many others like me would gladly bust the S*&T out of the buffalo that are depleting the landscapes and trees that you reference and state used to be in the background in the pictures of old and get them back into balance with nature BUT,,,

The damn environmentalists have stopped the taking of buffalo and are trying to stop the taking of elk on national forests and the NER (National Elk Refuge). Now, who exactly is playing GOD in Yellowstone? (Sure as hell isn't us hunters.)

All of this so that the newly introduced wolves have something to munch on.

And yes, I was involved with the EIS for the study of elk and buffalo management for the NER and the greater Y-stone ecosystem. I spent many hours driving (at my own expense) to attend meeting on this subject because I wanted to give my input on this subject and because I was personally was invited to attend these meetings by Senator Enzi. But when we have 50 to 200 show up for the hearings here and there are 2500 show up in Alexandria VA speaking only from emotion it is a numbers game and anyone can do that math.

Tell ya what Brent, hows about us in the western states transplanting griz, buffalo, and other vermin into your backyard and making it so you can't say or do anthing about controlling them?

Bet you'd love having that shoved down your throat.

And if you say "hell yes bring'em on" then you tell us exactly what you have done toward getting them introduced and protected ?

To the rest of you on this board, I am sorry you had to read this rant. Guess I could have put it into a PM to him.

Elkslayer

Elkslayer,
It's not a rant. It's the truth.

What some of you guys that don't live here need to understand is that we have had alot of BIG Citified people with tons of money that have move here.. because they wanted a piece of the west all to themselves.. instead of buying homes that were for sale they purchased huge amounts of land on secluded mountains and put up ENORMOUOS homes.. right in the middle of the living rooms of many of these animals..
The Elk have lived with the wolves for many years but there was more room then. Now with the Elk concentrated the wolves know where to go and they kill for sport. They don't single out the weak and sick they hamnmer the healthy ones why.. they are so concentrated they have it basically handed to them. Our herds were already down due to the building goin on.. now the dwindled herds are getting HAMMERED by the bears and wolves.. hell they are easy picking kinda like you going to the convenience store.. you don't need that pop or the extra coffee but hell its so easy why not.... bet you rarely finish that pop or cup of coffee.. you probobly just throw the rest out.. VERY VERY VERY similar to the bears and wolves..

Here's on for ya.. they tracked one of the introduced wolves this past week.. he was collared... where did the find him???

FREAKING UTAH!! from Yellowstone!!!! there hasn't been a wolf in Utah in 117 years.. why was this wolf there cause they are running out of food to sustain the packs they have here.. they won't tell you that but it is obvious..
I don't give a rats ass if you used to live here or not.. what it used to be like is NOT what it is like now.. this is a very serious problem and we as hunters will eventually loose our right to keep and bear arms... why.. cause there will be no need to hunt cause there will be nothing to hunt... mark my words.. we are doomed if we don't pull out our wallet , pick up the phone, write a letter, or what ever to ANYONE who will listen...

The tree huggers did and it worked for them...

Brent[/qb][/QUOTE]I'm being serious here. How many grizzlies have migrated to Iowa? I'm assuming you mean grizzlies and not black bears.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Of course, zero grizzlies. We get moose, wolves, black bears and now mt. lions. Sounds good to me. Iowa pretty much sucks for wildlife, but if we can get some decent predators going, so much the better. Wolves are our best bet. Grizzly bears probably our worst, but if you can find a way, I'll take'em. Realistically, I expect to have wolves in abundance within 10 yrs, maybe 15 at the most.

Brent

One major part of the issue - the most grating in my opinion, is going largely overlooked in this thread. It's self determination. Having a voice in your existence and its direction.

Residents of ID, MT, and WY bristle at the thought of dreadlocked San Franciscans and New Yorkers dictating our way of life. We don't as a rule LIKE high-horse liberals, much less socialists who hijack our lives and livelihoods.

If we wanted all these protected animals in our yards, we'd've done it ourselves. We did it with Yellowstone elk a hundred years ago, when they existed almost nowhere else. It's telling that the predator advocacy is based elsewhere, doncha think?

This is not to slam our friends who live in NY or SF, rather to recognize that our oppressors use those areas as home base. Yes, we see it in those terms. Along that line, why has no one reintroduced grizzlies to the Los Angeles River basin, an area historically among their largest concentrations? I know why and so do you.

I'll close with this question, which I've asked dozens of times without suitable reply. How is the introduction of wolves necessary or beneficial? Hint: the Greenshirts pat answer is "well, they're here and we have to manage them." Wrong! They're here because YOU brought them here. WHY?

Redial

Brent, you know what they say, "be careful of what you wish for, you might get it".

If you are so enamored with the concept of living with wolves, mountain lions, grizzlies and all, then what are you doing where you are at? Why aren't you out here where these animals are and loving it?

Hell, we wouldn't mind if you wanted to pitch a tent up in the Bob or on Pacific creek and sleep with the bacon.

[ 12-20-2002, 02:57: Message edited by: Elkslayer ]