The other night I spoke with a lady who works down at the sporting goods counter at our local Walmart.

She lives in an area the a lot of Elk come out of the forest and mountains unto private property that is posted with a lot of NO HUNTING signs.

In the middle of the afternoon, going down her driveway, she saw a large bull elk, running out of the woods into a field. At its feet were 6 to 7 coyotes that kept nipping at the elk's stomach. She had never seen that happen before.

Using some binoculars that her husband keeps in the truck, she looked at the elk, only to find that what the coyotes were nipping at, were the guts of the elk hanging out of its stomach.

Two weeks before season, it was evident to see that this magnificent animal had been gut shot, by some " crack shot" wonder of a Poacher. If these people are going to poach, why can't they at least be a decent shot???

This type of thing made me sick. As government passes more and more laws it never can enforce anyway, it is up to we responsible hunters to report these type of jerks. I only wish it was not against the law to just shoot these people.

Things like this given ammunition to all of the anti hunting "liberals". Almost makes me feel guilty to be lumped into the same catagory as the people who would do that. To the liberals, we are all like that.

Too bad we can't do like in the pioneer days of the old West. If we catch them, give them a long drop from a branch with a short rope. Instead of tying the rope around their neck, tyiing it around their nuts would be satisfactory enough for me.

Or they deserved to be gut shot and left out in the woods to deal with the coyotes with their guts hanging out. One good turn deserves another, doesn't it??

Your making the a big jump the yotes could have cause the guts to be hanging out. There is not proof that the bull was shot. Yotes have been know to take big game. Not to say someone could have shot it but you have no evidence that it was shot. Except it was running with its guts hanging out. Not sticking up for poachers but the facts are lacking.

You're making quite a leap of assumption there. I can think of several scenerios of what could of happened that don't involve humans at all.

PDS and Beeman:

Normally I have read your guys postings and both of you have left me with the impression that you are SHOOTERs and hunters with good ethics.

As far as a Bull Elk, I would be very interested in your interpretations of why that animal would have had his guts hanging out. Any animal that size that I have ever seen wounded like that was gut shot. Although we have bears in the area, and a lot of them, along with cougars, I would have to blame the scenario on humans. Since it was not Elk season yet, I don't think the shot was done legally.

Both of you are not from this area, but poaching of Elk is a problem, especially one that may have a large rack. We have an area that a lot of people, their career in life is collecting welfare, and anything else for not working in life. A large bull can provide a lot of meat, and a large rack like that, mounted can bring a couple of grand to an out of state buyer.

In eight years here, I have come across about 5 Elk that have been shot before season. I have come across them while out scouting pre season.
Up near Coos Bay Oregon several years ago, three large bulls were shot one night and just the heads taken. This was on a Federal Game Reserve, that is just off of the Highway. There are viewing places for people to watch these animals during broad day light. They just hang out in the fields like they were cattle.

Although a small number of people are poachers, we have more than our share around southern Oregon. Just my observation.

First of all elk are good eating for all preators so any one could have damaged the elk lions bears and things. For that matter if could have been done my another elk or by its self barbed wire fence comes to mined. Or getting hit by a trk or car. Normaly I don't see gut shot critters with the guts hanging out but that could be the after math of the yotes getting to it. It just that your lacking evidence to prove that some one shot it. ------------------------------------------------------Could it be yes but then it could not be. If you could say a shot was heard a arrow was seen sticking out ect you could very well have some proof.
-------------------------------- But just to say a elk with a wound was shot my proachers is a guess. No offense but the evidence is lacking.

I don't know your seasons -- could it have been wounded by an archer or black powder hunter?

Seafire,

That is a HUGE assumption, both on the woman's part and yours.

Without evidence of a bullet wound, it is just plain imprudent to say someone shot it.

If a coyote or other predator got one good 'chomp',. it could easily herniate the elk's abdominal wall. The guts would come tumbling out in short order due to the exertions of the elk and the loss of integrity of the abdomen.

Hyenas and African wild dogs use this method frequently. Once the prey animal weakens sufficiently, they make short work of it.

George

Seafire, I think you are a phony sucker, the most likely is another bull elk probably caused the damage. But I truly think the story is made up.

Seafire, I grew up in NW Montana and have seen a lot of elk shot, gut shot or otherwise and for the life of me, I can never remember seeing one with guts hanging out. A gut shot elk is just the location of the wound, it does not tear big holes so the guts can trail out. If this really happened it is more likely to have been a cougar or a snag that did the initial tear. I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

There are many many reasons why an Elk might have a injury like that, though I doubt I would say it was a gunshot wound unless I recovered the elk and the bullet. Instead of speculating or imagining things, why not just say you dont know?

I do not want to pile on but it seems there is yet another possibility.

Posted land only means that would-be trespassers/poachers must stay-off. A lot of posted land is hunted legally by the land-owners and folks who are invited or allowed by them to use the land. Poaching per se need not be in question as a legal hunter and a case of bad marksmansmanship might have been at work.

Poaching is reprihensible and illegal and gets no defense from me. But in this case.... the evidence is thin.

And before rifle season, an archer's arrow could do that kind of damage too.

1B

Seafire, poachers and game slobs are not unique to your area so the fact that I don't live there is hardly germaine.
What I was pointing out was that you are making the same leap that we sportsmen hate so when the anti's and tree huggers do it to us: OH, he owns a gun, he must be a criminal. What is he up to that he has to have a gun. Uh oh, he owns a gun, he must be a stone killer. Oh, how can you MURDER those poor bambis. And so forth.
I have SEEN two elk fighting. One rolled the other and was trying his best to pin him to the ground. Which, had he suceeded, would have definitely opened up his guts. The loser elk fled thru some broken ground. He fell amongst the rocks and when he got up and ran again, a front leg was flopping. Probably easy prey for the varmints.
I have SEEN the remains of a doe deer that in jumping over a blow down impaled herself on a broken snag. It went thru her like a spear. Entered just below the sternum and exited in front of the right hip. From the scene, it was apparent she died a slow and painful death. This was in Tenn back before they had coyotes. The doe might have welcomed a quicker death than what she got.
I have SEEN a photo of a deer that, in jumping a wovenwire fence with barbedwire on top, had laced its hind legs in the barbwire and died hanging head down. Can we make the assumption that poachers had killed this deer and hung it on the fence to field dress it?
Do you get my point?
I am not condoning poaching by any means but I think we outdoorsmen get enough unwarrented flak from slobs like Oprah and Fat assed Rosy, et al, without adding to it ourselves.

Not speculating as to what happened to the Elk ut I have seen a few examples of gut shot deer with there guts hanging out. Hitting a rib or having a bullet blow up has created wounds large enough for the entrails to start out. I would imagine that if the animal were allowed to run any distance after the shot the condition would only get worse.

Surely this could happen with Elk also but may not be near as common due to the use of premium or heavy for caliber bullets used by Elk hunters not creating the size holes that I have seen to cause the guts to start out and, well, many more deer are taken each year than Elk by the "average deer hunter", the ones more likely to carelessly gut shoot an animal!

Keeler:

Do your wife and kids have to call you "Docter" too? People who have to advertise their credentials are usually insecure and a bore to the rest of the world. Leave off the title. It doesn't impress and it certainly has no bearing on the subject of this thread [unless you have a Phd in elk guts].

Jordan

While the PhD's I have known tended to be bores, none of them were insecure. In fact, quite the contary.
I hacked out a BA in threes and sixes while married with a kid and working a full time job so I have a lot of respect for the guys with the big one. They don't come easy.

I'm not saying I don't respect people who have advanced degrees. What is objectionable is interjecting these putative "qualifications" into discussions where the supposed qualification is entirely irrelevant---when it has no bearing whatsoever on the correctness of the discussant's opinion.

We see this all the time in the firearms/hunting arena, or so it seems. Not infrequently we read articles about mule deer hunting, coyote calling and optics by "Dr." [who, it turns out, is a chiropractor] or Marine Corps Colonel so-and-so
when the topic has absolutely nothing to do about chiropractic or military matters. When you tell a reader that he should consider your medical degree [if that is what it is] as having some bearing on the correctness of his opinion on how to stalk mule deer, you are insulting his intelligence---and advertising yourself as, arguably, a very insecure person. The only possible reason for injecting something so irrelevant into a discussion is to impress others. If that is not a sign of insecurity, I don't know what is. Physicians seem to be the worst. Not all of them are like this, mind you---just the insecure ones.

Jordan

Correction:

The sentence should have read "doctor so-and-so [who, it turns out, is a chiropractor]...

Jordan

Thanks to the people that responded. Beeman, I appreciate your prospective. I still feel that the animal was wounded by a poacher. However, what can be done about it is strictly academic.

As far as Dr. Keeler: I do have to ask, if you think that I just made this up, could you go a step farther and give me a reason that I would have the motivation to do so??

Although I have seen where a few people on here have made up something just to see what kind of feed back they get, I humbly submit, I have better things to do with my time.

Things like this concern me, as it should all hunters with ethics. Although I am against poaching, what bothers me even more are the one who are not good enough shots to finish the job cleanly. Kind of like the Dumb Crook threads in one of the magazines a while ago. The only think that society hates worse than a crook or criminal is one that is not very good at it.

This was just something that came up and I wanted to share it with the community on line here. That is all.

Seafire, I have family in Oregon and if what they have told me is true, Oregon actually has a real problem in this regard in some areas. Poaching, that is. I have seen deer shot that the belly hide "unzipped" with no other real damage. My Dad in fact shot one this way about sunrise one day, didn't collect him till almost 4PM. He quit taking long shots after that, BTW. Hope I never have the "pleasure". While the evidence we read may be (is) thin, you and the lady live in the area and know (hopefully) what goes on there. I know it sounds odd, but I can stand a poacher that makes a clean kill and uses the meat, I don't like any hunter that would wound and leave an animal for the scavengers. I don't agree with him (poacher), mind you, it's cheaper to buy beef than practice poaching most of the time.

Another possibility would be that the elk impaled itself on a limb. I have seen horses do this and shortly after, the intestines start to fall out. It might be that the animal was shot, but often the perception is automatically that a "hunter" is at fault. For example, from now until spring nearly every dog or cat that I see with a swollen or cut foot will have an owner that will swear that the animal was "caught in a trap". Usually ends up being a bite abscess or wire cut, but the bad PR is out there anyway.

MFH

I live about 30 minutes south on I-5 from Seafire. At one time there was a huge poaching problem around here, it has declined in the past decade. The archery season would have only been over by a week or two when this happened. The wound could have been self inflicted from a fence, though I doubt it. I'm guessing this happen either in Azalea or Wymer. In either case I do not doubt it was poachers. We still have idiots shoot cattle not to mention each other every year.

Dear Jordan

The degree issued states Doctor of Chiropractic.
As I have seasoned I have lived more years being called Dr.Bob Keeler than any other name.
Made common sense to me at the time to be registered as that, though some may say I possibly may be too old to remember another acronym. I am so so sorry if I infringed on your feelings. You and all can drop the Dr. part on addressing me if that makes you more comfortable maybe I can try to sort the call sign out so Dr. is not there anymore. As I have stated I am more seasoned, though not old which really means probably I need some help here so if someone wishes to tell me how to extract the prefix Dr. I will take the information under advisement, may not do it since I received that degree I sometimes think I was branded --I cannot remember many a function that someone has not told me of their bad back, neck or some other aching appendage. Besides I like the reality of real names.

With regards to the elk story as I age, I am alot less tolerant of someone jumping to conclusions that a man/boy/girl with a gun or bow did the damage. Not that this could not happen but in the story the lady did not say she heard a shot or saw an arrow. I would still guess another bull elk inflicted the damage due to basically the peak of the rut for the year has come to it's final stages and with the area being restricted from hunting there probably are a large number of male animals concentrated competing for the girls in a smaller area. Hunting, I believe has a dispersion effect on the herd where the animals are less concentrated where the interaction of really big males coming close together more frequently is less. Remember the area mentioned is no hunting. I have seen quite a few rodeos and yes laughed at few chicken ropings but when I see these big bull elk go at it and touch antlers that have been broken I have gained alot of respect for the power these great creatures can throw about. If you have ever tried to break an antler yourself I would think you might agree. Though you do not need to agree you are probably still mad at what I am and it would not make any difference what I said.

Maybe the story was of the hypothetical to make the argument good shooting prevents unnecessary wounding which I apologize to Seafire/B17G if that was the jest of the story. (I wonder if his kids call him that at home?) Though my unsophisticated simple country chiropractor's mind likes the word phony better when there is no evidence from the story to the contrary. The story, it seems, in the end stimulates the mind to create the illusion that we are all according to the liberals gut shooting poachers. For all out there in cyberspace ole Seafire/B17G may consider himself a gut shooting poacher but I am not. I am a simple country chiropractor that likes to hunt and fish.

[ 10-31-2003, 04:43: Message edited by: Rogue 6 ]

Dr. Bob. I don't have a problem with your name. Most of us have some strange nicknames for whatever reason. But if you would like to edit yours to something else, just click on "my profile" at the top of the screen and once there select "edit or view member profile" and you can change your handle to anything you like. Be sure to save changes and I think that will do it.

[ 10-31-2003, 06:45: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

Doc Keeler:

I must really have to work on my communication skills I guess. The intention was not to assume we are all gut shooting hunters or poachers. I assume that most of those on this board are good hunters and fishermen. Rogue 6 was accurate when he assumed the location was either Azalea or Wimer. It was in the Wimer Area.

I am not familiar enough with Wyoming to compare it to an area you would be more familiar with.
It is a valley area, that is surrounded by BLM and Forest Service land. The area does not really have a lot of Elk herds running around in it. Many of the Elk herds I have seen in this location are usually only 12 to 20 animals at most. Not like some of the herds, I have seen in Idaho, and Montana. Higher in the Cascades there are larger herds.

The rut season has not hit the local area to my knowledge. The Elk here are the Roosevelt Elk, instead of the Rocky Mountain Elk. I just don't see that it was injured by another elk in a fight, or if it has been hurt by a cougar or bear, it would have had more damage to its body than what was seen.

I did not see the animal, was just relating a story told to me, by someone that I trust. I am putting together speculations like everyone else.

No gun shot was heard, I fail to see that an arrow could do that much damage. I personally have never seen where an animal has injured its stomach jumping over something, although have seen pictures of it.

My point is Poachers need to be stopped. I am aware of a lot more poaching than I am animals hurting themselves like that on a routine basis.
My brothers In here I respect. Poachers ought to be turned into bear shit as far as I concerned.

Some possibilities:

1. Elk was gut shot with a rifle or arrow.

2. Elk impaled itself on a limb.

3. Elk was impaled by another elk while sparring.

4. Elk injured itself while trying to jump over a fence.

5. Elk got hit by a car or truck (lots of people will not report it because of the possibility of getting fined).

6. Elk had a physical infirmity (ever hear of a hernia?).

Others?

Dr Bob, keep your name like it is. Chiropractors are not nearly as borish as full grown PhD's. I watch you all the time on the Muppet Show.

Seafire, once again you have missed the point several folks have tried to make:

1. Poachers are indeed bad.

2. You have ABSOLUTELY NO, REPEAT, NO EVIDENCE that the wounded elk was the work of poachers. But your mind is made up and so now you are SURE that it was the work of poachers; even tho, you have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE to support that idea. Once again, I do not think you are doing outdoorsmen any favors at all to make this assumption as to Oprah, Fat Ass, Sarah Brady, Ted Kennedy, et al, a poacher and a ethical hunter are one in the same.
No need to reply as I have said all I intend to.

Seafire: If you were TRULY conviced this was the work of poachers, was it reported by you or the "witness" to a local warden or the Fish & Game Dept.?

If a warden's report would support the notion, then I'd buy it. Otherwise, there's nary a shred of evidence to support your theory. There are a number of scenarios coming to mind, and poaching, to me, is on the tail-end of the list.

Well to those that seem to want to support poaching, then I guess that makes me a liberal then.

Just based on the experience I have seen of animals injured, its injury being man made seems to be the most realistic in this area.

Share something with your fellow hunters, and they all want to criticize your intelligence.

So to some of the people on this thread, if a security guard is sitting on the floor at the bank with his guts hanging out, he must have done that by falling off of his chair, or tried to jump over the counter, or some lady must have knocked him over as she was trying to hurry up and get in the short line. The possibility that he might have been shot by someone, is not really a possibility, as no one has proof if they did not hear the shot being fired, or the guard could not answer their question.

The beautiful thing is that it takes all types to make the world go round, and this thread proves it.

Next time I see an animal with its guts hanging out of it, I will attempt to ask him how it happened so that I can rule out the possibility that it was a poacher. Otherwise, we have no proof right?

Sure hope some of you guys are not employed at airport security.

Seafire,
I keep getting reminded of those adages like "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging"

Leave it be, the folks here do not support poachers and despise them as much as you or more. They just can not, almost to a man, see the connection as you do and you are certainly not doing your case any good with this rant.

Most poachers have dandy pick up trucks, and love them more than female companionship, so down here we just shoot the trucks in the block while they are out hunting. Its actually quite sporting and a LOT of fun.

If its an old truck with bald tires, we let it go...they need the meat.

Well Ih aint got no D-grees,an in fac Ih aint got no book learnin atoll, an caint reed nor rite very good, caint spell nun nether, but I does no elks, an bullets, an thays gonno be damage when thy gets together!

Gentelmen, the fact that some one has Dr. in front of his name, is a REAL reason to discount everytthing he says, for sure!

The sceenario Seafire suggests could very well be correct, The same way he has no real evidence
to back it, the rest have no evidence to doubt his take on this. That being said, I think this is simply par for the course on "Big Game Hunting" forum. It seems there is always a donnibrook going here! Hotcore may be right, most here may need a good deal more female companionship, I know I certainly do!

As far as bullets not opening the belly, letting the guts out, that is just plain dumb, I've seen this happen on more than one occasion. On cull hunts, shoot throughs hit other animals, with gut shots, and some dump the guts. The elk, IMO, was more likely to have enjured himself on a barbwire fence, or was goared by another bull in a fight, but certainly could have been wounded by a crap head thief of a POACHER!

Here is the problem I have with this whole string, and it is my opinion, and mine alone, and is worth what ever you guys are willing to pay for it! I charge nothing, so maybe that's what it's worth.

The event was witnessed by two people, the evidence was not there to say deffinetly that it was HUMAN related! Without evidence, the matter should have been dropped right there! By putting it on the internet, and argueing about it, the Animal Rights trools who shadow these hunting forums, now have one more thing to shout in the protests, WORLD WIDE. The AR people don't bother with evidence, but with this post, we are doing the very thing we cuss the AR people for doing, shouting with out evidence!

I for one have decided we don't have a case, but the coyotes had some meat to feed themselves, and their pups, so all was not lost!

Hey guys I do not like poachers like Seafire/B17G.

Though I think I would give the prosecuters and courts the responsiblity of determing the consequences of the violation. I would not cross the line and do any harm as a vigilanty. I just returned from Zim last week.
We caught some poachers red handed with a Zebra, guinea fowl and six kudu. The PH said the fine besides some jail time will probably be 500 zim dollars ---less than a whole quarter in US funds. Makes you think. Confiscated some neat spears for my trophy room.

Hey for fun to keep ole Jordan happy, if you ever see Ernie reporting, you know I have a smile.

Oh, Bob, Bob. You caved in. How boorish.
Now your buddy will prob give you an earful because you've be to Zimbobway(spl).

Jordan

Where did you get your legal training? One that evidently has trained you in overlooking vigilanty recommendations over the laws of the land? Are all attornies trained this way from that institution?

Small Fry,

Thanks for the Book Report. I can tell by your post, that :

1. You are young, fresh out of college.
2. You are an engineering major.

Point out if I am incorrect on anything.

To the Rest:

Please accept my apology for loosing my cool.
I really have a problem with poachers. Particulary those that can't shoot worth a crap.
I have a much bigger problem with those that just wound an animal, than I do with those that have to kill one for the meat, because they are too poor. It happens and I knew a lot of people in that boat, in my youth. If they did not shoot deer year round, they would not have had meat on the table. ( This was in Monroe County WVA Mr.Beeman)

As one other person put it, the modern poachers are just assholes that are too cheap to buy a license or are just lousy lazy hunters, and do it the easy way, spot lighting at night etc.

As far as the Animal Rights activist; I am sure they really don't care. I am under the firm belief, the way they are letting cougars overrun California, Oregon and Washington, that main agenda is to let most of the animals we hunt be annilated by the cougars. Then they can say we have nothing to hunt, so we don't need firearms, so they can have them all taken away. To them anything is expendible as long as they get to promote their little agenda.

Funny how animal rights activists are always protesting hunting, but anyone ever seen then protest HOG hunting? Me neither. Saving a Pig is not trendy or sophisticated, so they don't protest that one.

Those people are just the other side of the coin from the assholes who just poach because they are too dam lazy to hunt like a decent person would.

Too bad we can't get a season on them, or let their cougars have them for lunch. They would great as cougar shit to me. Who said cougars are useless then?? Not me./

WOW...crossing the line into vigilantism...the authorities in VA never deal with poachers and they are very dangerous as they also put bullets through barnes and houses, not to mention killing horses, cattle and goats.

Its OK to break the law, as long as no one gets hurt and you are willing to pay the fine or do the time. If convicted by a jury of my peers, i would gladly pay for the truck.