The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Is the .270 Win. adequate for elk? NOT!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
Last weekend a friend was on a special draw trophy elk hunt. By use of a cow chirp, a nice 6x6 walked to within 50 yards and stood facing him. With a rem 700 in .270 shooting 150 grain nosler partitions, the hunter aimed and fired, and his brother said he could see the bullet hit the elk in the chest. There was blood at the location where the elk had been shot, but almost zero blood along the trail. That was 1 hour before sundown. They were able to follow the elk more than a mile based on upturned leaves and dirt before it was dark. That night it rained hard. The next day they could not pick up the trail again or find the elk by circling or strategic searching. | ||
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Moderator |
Funny you should mention.... A co-worker of mine took a day off to hunt elk last wednesday. He bugled in a nice 5X6, and killed it with a single shot. The shot completely penetrated the broadside elk, taking out both lungs. The elk went about 50 yards before collapsing. What was he shooting, you ask? A .270 Win, of course, with 150gr Hornady handloads. I don't think the elk knew he wasn't hit with a .338. I was going to post this story last week, just for kicks and giggles (although the story is absolutely, 100% true), but I am not much of a 5hit disturber. Since the door was opened, though, I just couldn't resist. Another true story for the record. In '96 I got a great broadside shot at a really nice 6X6. I was using my .300 Win Mag, with 200gr handloads. The first shot looked great (the bull reared up and almost flipped on its back), but the bull recovered itself and walked into some trees, foiling any chance at a follow up shot. 6 hours and about 800m of intense trailing later, I found the bull still alive, but unable to stay on its feet. Had to give it one more to finish it. Despite the fact it looked like I had hit it perfectly with that first shot, it turned out I had hit the bull just a little high, penetrating through the top of only one lung, about 3" below the spine. Moral of the story: Much as I like 'em, big guns don't make up for poor shot placement. Regards, [This message has been edited by Canuck (edited 09-18-2001).] | |||
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one of us |
I must agree. Quite difficult to take out both lungs with a frontal shot. If you don't hit the heart or spine, it will take far to long for animal to bleed out. No blame on the cartridge. Blame on the shooter. JMO, Dutch. | |||
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| <allen day> |
I love these bullet-proof-elk stories. To hear some of these tales, you'd swear that elk are the toughest critters on planet Earth. And 500grains, that seems to be a recurrent theme with you. I remember trailing an elk for over 200 yards one time that was shot through both lungs with a 270 gr. Hornady launched by a .375 H&H. When we caught up with this elk and field dressed him, we found that both lungs were absolute mush. It was a wonder that this bull went anywhere. On the same hunt, I watched one of the other guys in our camp shoot a big six-point bull at just under 200 yards with a .270 Winchester. The bullet was the 130 gr. Nosler Partition (we use that bullet a lot), and that bull seemed to go down as soon as the rifle went off. So go figure.......... I'm not impressed with recitals of isolated, horrific elk episodes, including my own. They don't prove all that much of anything. While the .270 is not my ideal elk cartridge, it's a whole lot better that many people realize. I've used the .270 myself on two bull elk with 130 gr. Nosler Partitions. In both cases, these elk were shot through the lungs, then they ran for about forty yards and fell over. One of these bullets went clear through, and the other one I recovered and have in my collection. That's not much .270 experience on elk to draw upon, so I'll mention two older hunters I've known for a lot of years. One of these gentlemen is a NE Oregon outfitter who has taken over fifty bulls with the old 130 Winchester Silvertip bullet handloaded for a pre-64 Model 70 .270 standard grade. He's got a whole box of these bullets that he's recovered from mule deer and elk - mostly from carefully-placed lung shots. The other person I'll mention is a man I grew up by who taught me a lot about elk hunting, plus a great deal more. He bought a Model 70 Featherweight .270 in 1956, and it's been his only hunting rifle ever since. With it, he's taken over fifty mule deer bucks in several states, as well as moose, pronghorn, and over thirty bull elk. Going into his home is like walking into a rogues' gallery of big bulls and bucks. He has one of the best trophy collections I've ever seen of these two species, and he's taken all of them on his own. His bullet of choice is the 130 gr. Nosler Partition, handloaded to just over 3100 fps. Now, you could try to preach your anti-.270 propaganda to these guys until you're blue in the face, but when it comes long, varied, successful elk hunting experience, I doubt that you're going to teach them anything they haven't already learned a long time ago about the .270. AD | ||
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| Moderator |
quote: Well said, indeed. Canuck | |||
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| one of us |
Allen, Amen! One hunt does not make a reputation (or hunter)! The .270 will probably outlive us all! Sheister | |||
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| <Jeff S> |
On my first elk hunt in Idaho the fellow I was hunting with made a shot on a bull at 80 yards with a .338 Win Mag. I persnally loaded the 225 grain Nosler Partitions. At the first shot the animal showed no signs of distress. The guide told my friend to shoot again and he did. Again, no sign of a hit so he was instructed to shoot again, which he did. After the third shot the animal began to run. It ran about 80 yards before it collapsed. When we caught up with it there were three entrance and exit wounds right where they should be and you could cover all three with a baseball cap. The animal just didn't know it was dead. Maybe the .338 mag isn't enough gun either? Its all a bunch of poppycock! A .270 will anchor an elk as well as any other gun. Jim Zumbo shot his first 20 bulls with a 30-06!!! Please don't tell me a .270 is sub-par with the -06. I'll agree the -06 is a little more versatile...but more effective on elk...wah! | ||
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| one of us |
I would have to say that a 270 shooting 130 Sierras or Ballistic tips is not a great elk cartridge but to say the cartridge in general is inadequate for elk flies in the face of a lot of evidence to the contrary. Regards, Bill. | |||
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| One of Us |
It seems some of our 270 fans are getting their back up when presented with evidence of failure of the 270 on elk. If a cartridge can only succeed with perfect broadside shots, then it is not an appropriate elk cartridge. Of course, the fault lies with the hunter for choosing a .270 in the first place, though a center of the chest shot can't be called bad bullet placement. Rather, it was poor cartridge selection. The fact that a 270 or 22LR has killed elk does not make it a good choice. Lots of people walked across the prarie to California, but I don't think any of us will do that today when there are so many better options available. | |||
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| one of us |
Gentlemen, The .270 Winchester might not be the "best" elk cartridge. If there was a best elk cartridge, what would some of these gunwriters have to write about. BUT, it is a good elk cartridge, and many, many elk fall to it every year. Those that run off do so because of poor bullet performance or placement. If a hunter chooses to use a cartridge that is at the lower end of the suitability spectrum, he owes it to the animal to use the best possible bullet. In my mind, that is a Nosler Partition. Elk are tough, but not bulletproof. They fall every year around here to .30-30's and the like. My advice is to become a better hunter, whether you use a .270 or a .416. Just my opinion... Joel Slate | |||
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| <Zeke> |
I think that a 270 Winchester loaded with a 160gr Partition bullet and about 53grs of IMR4350 should do the trick. Provided the shooter does his part. ZM | ||
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| Administrator |
500grains, Your friend could not have hit the elk in the center of the chest, otherwise it would not have gone far. I have shot probably well over 200 game animals with a 270, using both the Barnes X 130 grain bullet and the 140 Bear Claws. These animals include kudu, sable, eland, waterbuck and zebra. Some of these animals have a reputation of being very tough. Walter is standing here saying "Saeed always cheats! He tells the animals he is shooting his 375/404, so when an animal gets hit with a 270, he dies immediately, thinking he was shot with a bigger gun!" What logic! And as it is coming from our genius, I have to beleive it! ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
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one of us |
bullet placement and performance is most important no matter what caliber you use! you must be able to shoot your rifle accurately and know your limits. VERY few men have the skill to be shooting at anything at 1000 yards! | |||
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| <J Brown> |
Hey guys keep in mind 500Grains is the guy who needed five hits and a bunch of tracking to get his elk with a 470 Capstick! Shot placement is the single most important factor in killing anything. 500 should know this after his five shot elk kill with a rifle that we all know is way more than enough gun for elk. Just because someone says they saw the bullet hit in the chest does not mean the shot was well placed. There is a great deal of area on an animals chest when viewed from the front that can be hit but still miss the heart, lungs or spine. No matter what cartridge you use a single lung shot CAN allow an animal to go a long ways before falling. If shooting for the lungs you need to make sure that the bullet will take both lungs. I am not a big 270 fan, but I do know that the 30-06 is the only cartridge that has taken more elk than the old Winchester. So 500 Please tell us your story about the elk you shot with the 470. I am sure you will convince us all to buy larger rifles for elk. Jason | ||
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| <Pygmy> |
Things are not always as they seem...The only way to be positive of where that bullet hit is to look at the animal lying on the ground... I once shot a whitetail buck from a treestand with a 20 gauge slug...I believed it to be a head-on shot......The deer ran toward me and I could SEE the blood pouring out of the wound in the brisket, and was waiting for the deer to fold up... He got nearly to my stand, and stopped, looking around in a very alert manner, not acting at all like the mortally wounded deer that I assumed him to be...I quickly dropped him with a neck shot... It turned out that my first shot had been more of an angling shot than a dead on shot and had passed through the brisket AHEAD of the chest cavity, hitting NOTHING vital... That elk was not hit squarely in the chest if he went that far.... Often I hear stories of animals with thier heart SHREDDED that still manage to run several hundred yards before they expire..My reaction is the same....Tell it to someone who hasn't seen as many animals killed as I or many of the posters here have... [This message has been edited by Pygmy (edited 09-19-2001).] | ||
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| <mppharm> |
Last fall on my elk hunt I was lucky enough to take a 7 X 6. I was using a 270 Win with 130gr old sytle silvertips. I hit him in the rib cage at 80 yards(lasered). He went 15 or 20 yards before piling up. This is not the first elk I have ever taken with a 270 but is the largest. the 270 has never failed me on any game I have used it on if I did my part and hit the chest area. The new magnums may be better I do not know but for me the old 270 gets the job done in a splendid fashion and I could not ask for more from any caliber. | ||
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| One of Us |
Jason, At least I tell the truth of what happens on my hunts... | |||
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one of us |
With the right bullet & shot placement the .270 & most other rounds are "adequate" elk rifles. For ME, I hunt elk as a non-res & don't want to have to pass on a bad angle shot if that is all I can have. I want a bit more bullet mass @ the animal, but if all I could hunt w/ was a .270 I would load 150gr NP or Swift, etc. & have @ it. | |||
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| Moderator |
I would echo what the last poster said regarding the 270 and elk hunting. The travel, outfitting and license costs are just too high these days to risk using a "marginal" caliber. I've killed elk with the 270, it works very well when a broadside shot is taken, but in today's world that isn't enough! It has to work well on any shot that's offered at reasonable range. | |||
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| one of us |
500grains: I don't know you and am not trying to pick a fight, but if you really had to shoot an elk 5 times with a .470 then you might consider hunting with a lighter recoiling rifle like a .270 where you can better place your shots. | |||
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| <Fuzz> |
I guess I should put my 270 away this year and go back to useing my 30-30. It has never failed to bring down a elk. Fuzz PS. Or my dad's 35rem. mod 81 | ||
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| one of us |
Fuzz, It's interesting how many hunters come out and admit they have killed many elk with their 30-30 or their .300 Savage or whatever other cartridge today's gunwriters say is inadequte....I think hunters that need bigger guns need to get closer to their target...just my opinion...keep on going with those ancient "underpowered" rifles...I'll keep on hunting with my old .303 British and never look back... Joel Slate | |||
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One of Us |
Same guy, same time of year, same lame thread... some guys aren't happy unless slinging mud... | |||
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| <J Brown> |
500grains Your own experiences prove that placement of the bullet is at the top of the list and that a bigger gun will not work if the placement is poor. Far too many elk guides recommend the 270 for me to believe it is inadequate for elk. When some fool stirs the pot with this type of BS I roll my eyes and move on, but hearing it come from you gets my blood pressure up because I know you are smarter than that. You bring far too much to this forum for me to believe you really feel as strongly as you say you do about the 270 not working for elk. Jason | ||
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| one of us |
2 days ago I shot a very good buck muntjac with my 286gr Partition 9.3x62 load at 90yards. The bullet hit him broadside just above the heart and exited just behind the opposite shoulder. The exit wound was about 1" in diameter so the bullet had expanded well. The buck made 50 yards at a dead run and would have gone further had he not collided with a fence. He weighed 23lbs ready for the larder. My conclusion is that the 9.3x62 is not enough gun for 23lb deer in a charge situation and that I need a real stopper. Or my conclusion is that the slow heavy bullet did not impart enough shock to the animal and I should get a .222 Or my conclsion is that you can only lower the blood pressure in an animal so quickly whatever the calibre and that unless you hit CNS or shoulders it will run a bit. The trouble with the last conclusion (which by the way is the one I believe) is that it doesn't sound sexy (I shot it with my xyz and it went down like a sack of s**t....)and it isn't a good way of justifying buying another rifle. [This message has been edited by 1894 (edited 09-20-2001).] | |||
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| <257 AI> |
Do we really have to have this tired old argument again? If the elk didn't die it is because of shot placement. I would have to say that if the 270 didn't kill the elk then a 300 RUM wouldn't have either because it was a poor hit. A bigger bullet does not an elk slayer make. The wrong bullet in the right place is infanently better than the right bullet in the wrong place. Or like Wayne Van Zwoll(SP) said, testosterone is not measured on a chronograph. | ||
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| <Wildcat> |
Just had to post this.- read clay harvey's book the hunters rifle. it covers caliber and rifle type choices for all types of game. acording to him you can hunt elk with alot of calibers and they will still have the same reaction you described above. does this mean that the .270 is a bad elk cartridge? Yeah. Sure it does. ------------------ | ||
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| One of Us |
Gato, Sorry you missed the whole story on the 470 elk hunt. 1. The 470 in question kicks like a 25-06 due to its weight, muzzle brake and mercury recoil reducers, so recoil is not an issue. 2. I used Woodleigh 500 grain soft points which acted like FMJ bullets on the elk and did not open up at all. 3. The first shot was a high broadside shot that was too high for lung and too low for spine. So I had a big tracking job on my hands. 4. The 2nd shot was at 300 yards and was a good broadside lung shot. But the elk, having been spooked and run 2-3 miles, did not drop immediately. That shot too was with a Woodleigh and passed through with little damage. 5. The 3rd shot was with a Hawk bullet and it did devastating damage and dropped the elk. I hope this clarifies it. | |||
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| one of us |
Losing any animal, regardless of the firearm used, is a sobering thing. Analyzing the shot from my armchair brings me to the conclusion that one, he should have held off to see if he could get a better shot, and two, he used the wrong bullet for the shot. (I hear the flamethrowers lighting up.) Bear with me. The elk was within 50 yards. The bullet a Nosler partition. OK, the position of the elk could have been better, but I stand on the bullet. Assuming a good stiff handload or a hot premium factory load, that bullet had ot be hauling hind end. I'm willing to bet the nose portion blew off too fast and all he had, in effect, was a solid rear portion to last long enough to do any damage. Think I'm full of it? Let me describe a hunt for a mule deer. This was the last day of the season. Usually, I can get the whole season off to hunt, but we were short handed so it was the last day or nothing. The rut was just getting started which was a help. Anyway, of all days, I overslept. Checking my ammo supply, I found I only had 180 gr. 30-06's loaded up with Nosler partions. I'd made them for an elk hunt that did not pan out. I headed out and while driving up this nasty dirt road, I saw a deer. one big buck, with a spindly 4 point rack. I stopped and got out, moved to a tree where I could take a rest, and shot him right in the heart. he jumped and started running back and forth. I sho for the lungs this time. He flinched. The third shot broke an antler, and the fourth was a complete miss. I forced myself to settle down and broke his neck with the last shot in the rifle. This deer was so heavy, I had to cut him in two, just to get him into the bed of my truck. Now, the post mortem. The first bullet did in fact hit him in the heart. It cut a finger sized groove in the top of the heart muscle, but did not open up the heart. The lung shot was a hole, no more than one half inch in diameter, and the lungs were pretty much intact. The neck shot hit the bone and shattered it. Of course, you can conside the other two shots misses. The shortes shot was about 35 feet and the longest? Maybe 20-25 yards. From checking out the wounds, I think the Noslers, at 2800 FPS, just blew the noses off at impact and the rear half just penciled on through. I usually use the Sierra 180 gr. SPFB for deer, and I believe, that at the ranges involved, the first shot would have ended the dance. The deer? With the head, skin, legs cut off at the knees and gutted, weighed 295 pounds on a certified scale. He was one big dude. Just too damned close for the Noslers to work right. That's my theory and the reasons behind it. Paul B. | |||
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| one of us |
Two things! 1. I wish Mr. Hoffman would post his experiences with the .270 and Elk on this thread. 2. I don't understand the facination with dropping animals on the spot. I shoot them through the heart/shoulders, wait a little, then go to where they fell, usually within 100 yds. Mike ------------------ | |||
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| <Zeke> |
Hasn't this topic been beaten into the ground enough? ZM | ||
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| one of us |
I, like Saeed, have shot a couple of hundred animals with the 270 and it is a good elk gun if you use proper bullets and keep shots broadside or near broadside... I hunt in the black timber where shots are going away now, so I retired the 270 for a 338, 9.3 and 375 so I can shoot them up the pipe and kill them before they go to the bottom of an Idaho canyon.... ------------------ | |||
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| <sure-shot> |
Well here is my lousy two cents worth! The 7mm bores and lower are not the best, I repeat the best elk killers. They will work most of the time using premium bullets, however elk can move long distances even when bullets are properly placed. How do I base my claims? Experience, period. This is not to say Joe hunter with his super 30 will put elk down all of the time either. Sometimes those bull elk refuse to drop when hit perfectly with a 338 250 grainer. I would much rather see a serious elk hunter armed with a 30/06 than a 270 if he is recoil sensitive. I witnessed a big 350 class 6x6 bull travel over 1/2 mile after taking a broadside hit from a 150gr.Part. bullet fired from a 270win. Range was slightly over 300yds. This was a draw late hunt with snow on the ground for easy tracking. You could see the sprayed blood in the snow about every 12yds, it simply took a little time for that bull's lungs to fill up and die. What if another hunter heard the shots and managed to put that wounded bull down and claim it? Believe me it happens every year. My personal minumum for elk is 30cal with 180gr premium bullets. Sorry 270win fans if you are offended by this post, your 270win is a fine elk cartridge out to 275-300yds. Hell I was there too, | ||
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| <500 AHR> |
Joel, I never have shot an elk with a 30-30 but that was what my dad always used. I hunted with a Springfield M1896 30-40 Krag. We hunted in western Washington. I cannot remember ever loosing one. Keep in mind though that the woods up there are much denser than the Rockies and shots are at much closer range. Todd E | ||
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| <sure-shot> |
Some more points to ponder. It's the elk opener, schools close, businesses hang out the closed sign. Seems every one is going elk hunting, you get the picture. Chances are some of the elk you see are going to be pushed pretty hard, full of adrenalin. Throw in some private land borders or unit boundries, maybe even a Nat'l park boundry. Your choice of cartridge can determine the outcome of the hunt. So now you pack in twenty miles with or without an outfitter. Now you have rough terrain, maybe thick timber or rocky slides to contend with. You may be able to get your pack horse to your elk or you may have to pack em yourself. You will see the majority of your elk in the morning and at dusk. If it is the latter you will have to decide whether or not you will take the shot. Again your choice of cartridge(and bullets) can and will determine the outcome of the hunt. I urge anyone who has the chance to examine an elk especially a bull which has been taken with a 338 bullet. Grab that front leg and move it around then examine the wound channel. The smaller bore folks will be humbled - guaranteed! I feel anyone who can shoot a 270 can learn to shoot a 338win mag with 210 bullets well enough to go elk hunting in the fall. sure-shot | ||
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| <257 AI> |
But, not everyone can afford more than one rifle and so they have to pick a rifle to do all of their hunting. Now I will grant you, a 30-06 would be a better choice, but a 270 will do the job if the bullet is put in the right place. And a 338 Win Mag would get used only for elk as it's more gun than I want to use for deer and ALOT more than I want for antelope. If someone owns a 270 and they are getting a chance to travel out west for an elk hunt why should they go buy a 338 Win Mag that they might never use again? ------------------ | ||
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| <Paleohunter> |
Good enough for Jack O'Conner good enough for me. Nuff said. If I did need more I would pass on the "little" 30-06 and use a 9.3x62 instead. I would also pass on the 338 and get the bigger BANG of the 9.3x64. | ||
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| <phurley> |
I shoot a .257 Wby and have no doubt it will do the job on an Elk. I also shoot everything up to a .358 STA, and feel the larger bores are better Elk chamberings. I have an old Elk hunting buddy who can hunt circles around any hunter I know, including myself, he shoots a .270 and scoff at anyone who would suggest he shoot anything else. I certainly would not want him hunting me, if I were an Elk. He will be the first to say, shoot whatever you are comfortable with, it is you and the Elk on that mountain, no one else should interfere with your methods. He also greatly respects my .340 Wby and .358 STA, and what they can do. I say, to each his own. I would keep the .270 the least chambering in the elk rifles. Good Shooting. ------------------ | ||
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| <257 AI> |
quote: And from this story we can conclude that proper bullet choice and placement is far more important than power. ------------------ | ||
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