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To be old and wise.....first you have to be young and stupid!

A co-worker of mine took a day off to hunt elk last wednesday. He bugled in a nice 5X6, and killed it with a single shot. The shot completely penetrated the broadside elk, taking out both lungs. The elk went about 50 yards before collapsing.

What was he shooting, you ask? A .270 Win, of course, with 150gr Hornady handloads. I don't think the elk knew he wasn't hit with a .338.

I was going to post this story last week, just for kicks and giggles (although the story is absolutely, 100% true), but I am not much of a 5hit disturber. Since the door was opened, though, I just couldn't resist.

Another true story for the record. In '96 I got a great broadside shot at a really nice 6X6. I was using my .300 Win Mag, with 200gr handloads. The first shot looked great (the bull reared up and almost flipped on its back), but the bull recovered itself and walked into some trees, foiling any chance at a follow up shot. 6 hours and about 800m of intense trailing later, I found the bull still alive, but unable to stay on its feet. Had to give it one more to finish it. Despite the fact it looked like I had hit it perfectly with that first shot, it turned out I had hit the bull just a little high, penetrating through the top of only one lung, about 3" below the spine.

Moral of the story: Much as I like 'em, big guns don't make up for poor shot placement.

Regards,
Canuck

[This message has been edited by Canuck (edited 09-18-2001).]

No blame on the cartridge. Blame on the shooter. JMO, Dutch.

I remember trailing an elk for over 200 yards one time that was shot through both lungs with a 270 gr. Hornady launched by a .375 H&H. When we caught up with this elk and field dressed him, we found that both lungs were absolute mush. It was a wonder that this bull went anywhere.

On the same hunt, I watched one of the other guys in our camp shoot a big six-point bull at just under 200 yards with a .270 Winchester. The bullet was the 130 gr. Nosler Partition (we use that bullet a lot), and that bull seemed to go down as soon as the rifle went off. So go figure..........

I'm not impressed with recitals of isolated, horrific elk episodes, including my own. They don't prove all that much of anything.

While the .270 is not my ideal elk cartridge, it's a whole lot better that many people realize. I've used the .270 myself on two bull elk with 130 gr. Nosler Partitions. In both cases, these elk were shot through the lungs, then they ran for about forty yards and fell over. One of these bullets went clear through, and the other one I recovered and have in my collection.

That's not much .270 experience on elk to draw upon, so I'll mention two older hunters I've known for a lot of years. One of these gentlemen is a NE Oregon outfitter who has taken over fifty bulls with the old 130 Winchester Silvertip bullet handloaded for a pre-64 Model 70 .270 standard grade. He's got a whole box of these bullets that he's recovered from mule deer and elk - mostly from carefully-placed lung shots.

The other person I'll mention is a man I grew up by who taught me a lot about elk hunting, plus a great deal more. He bought a Model 70 Featherweight .270 in 1956, and it's been his only hunting rifle ever since. With it, he's taken over fifty mule deer bucks in several states, as well as moose, pronghorn, and over thirty bull elk. Going into his home is like walking into a rogues' gallery of big bulls and bucks. He has one of the best trophy collections I've ever seen of these two species, and he's taken all of them on his own. His bullet of choice is the 130 gr. Nosler Partition, handloaded to just over 3100 fps.

Now, you could try to preach your anti-.270 propaganda to these guys until you're blue in the face, but when it comes long, varied, successful elk hunting experience, I doubt that you're going to teach them anything they haven't already learned a long time ago about the .270.

AD

quote:

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Originally posted by allen day:

I'm not impressed with recitals of isolated, horrific elk episodes, including my own. They don't prove all that much of anything.

...but when it comes long, varied, successful elk hunting experience, I doubt that you're going to teach them anything they haven't already learned a long time ago about the .270.

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Well said, indeed.

Canuck

One hunt does not make a reputation (or hunter)! The .270 will probably outlive us all!

Sheister

If a cartridge can only succeed with perfect broadside shots, then it is not an appropriate elk cartridge. Of course, the fault lies with the hunter for choosing a .270 in the first place, though a center of the chest shot can't be called bad bullet placement. Rather, it was poor cartridge selection.

The fact that a 270 or 22LR has killed elk does not make it a good choice. Lots of people walked across the prarie to California, but I don't think any of us will do that today when there are so many better options available.

The .270 Winchester might not be the "best" elk cartridge. If there was a best elk cartridge, what would some of these gunwriters have to write about. BUT, it is a good elk cartridge, and many, many elk fall to it every year. Those that run off do so because of poor bullet performance or placement.

If a hunter chooses to use a cartridge that is at the lower end of the suitability spectrum, he owes it to the animal to use the best possible bullet. In my mind, that is a Nosler Partition.

Elk are tough, but not bulletproof. They fall every year around here to .30-30's and the like. My advice is to become a better hunter, whether you use a .270 or a .416. Just my opinion...

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
The Safari Specialists
www.slatesafaris.com
SITE NEWLY UPDATED !!!

ZM

Your friend could not have hit the elk in the center of the chest, otherwise it would not have gone far.

I have shot probably well over 200 game animals with a 270, using both the Barnes X 130 grain bullet and the 140 Bear Claws.

These animals include kudu, sable, eland, waterbuck and zebra. Some of these animals have a reputation of being very tough.

Walter is standing here saying "Saeed always cheats! He tells the animals he is shooting his 375/404, so when an animal gets hit with a 270, he dies immediately, thinking he was shot with a bigger gun!"

What logic! And as it is coming from our genius, I have to beleive it!

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Shot placement is the single most important factor in killing anything. 500 should know this after his five shot elk kill with a rifle that we all know is way more than enough gun for elk.

Just because someone says they saw the bullet hit in the chest does not mean the shot was well placed. There is a great deal of area on an animals chest when viewed from the front that can be hit but still miss the heart, lungs or spine.

No matter what cartridge you use a single lung shot CAN allow an animal to go a long ways before falling. If shooting for the lungs you need to make sure that the bullet will take both lungs.

I am not a big 270 fan, but I do know that the 30-06 is the only cartridge that has taken more elk than the old Winchester.

So 500 Please tell us your story about the elk you shot with the 470. I am sure you will convince us all to buy larger rifles for elk.

Jason

I once shot a whitetail buck from a treestand with a 20 gauge slug...I believed it to be a head-on shot......The deer ran toward me and I could SEE the blood pouring out of the wound in the brisket, and was waiting for the deer to fold up...

He got nearly to my stand, and stopped, looking around in a very alert manner, not acting at all like the mortally wounded deer that I assumed him to be...I quickly dropped him with a neck shot...

It turned out that my first shot had been more of an angling shot than a dead on shot and had passed through the brisket AHEAD of the chest cavity, hitting NOTHING vital...

That elk was not hit squarely in the chest if he went that far....

Often I hear stories of animals with thier heart SHREDDED that still manage to run several hundred yards before they expire..My reaction is the same....Tell it to someone who hasn't seen as many animals killed as I or many of the posters here have...

[This message has been edited by Pygmy (edited 09-19-2001).]

At least I tell the truth of what happens on my hunts...

I don't know you and am not trying to pick a fight, but if you really had to shoot an elk 5 times with a .470 then you might consider hunting with a lighter recoiling rifle like a .270 where you can better place your shots.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
The Safari Specialists
www.slatesafaris.com

Your own experiences prove that placement of the bullet is at the top of the list and that a bigger gun will not work if the placement is poor.

Far too many elk guides recommend the 270 for me to believe it is inadequate for elk.

When some fool stirs the pot with this type of BS I roll my eyes and move on, but hearing it come from you gets my blood pressure up because I know you are smarter than that. You bring far too much to this forum for me to believe you really feel as strongly as you say you do about the 270 not working for elk.

Jason

The buck made 50 yards at a dead run and would have gone further had he not collided with a fence. He weighed 23lbs ready for the larder.

My conclusion is that the 9.3x62 is not enough gun for 23lb deer in a charge situation and that I need a real stopper.

Or my conclusion is that the slow heavy bullet did not impart enough shock to the animal and I should get a .222

Or my conclsion is that you can only lower the blood pressure in an animal so quickly whatever the calibre and that unless you hit CNS or shoulders it will run a bit.

The trouble with the last conclusion (which by the way is the one I believe) is that it doesn't sound sexy (I shot it with my xyz and it went down like a sack of s**t....)and it isn't a good way of justifying buying another rifle.

[This message has been edited by 1894 (edited 09-20-2001).]

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A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed !!

Sorry you missed the whole story on the 470 elk hunt.

1. The 470 in question kicks like a 25-06 due to its weight, muzzle brake and mercury recoil reducers, so recoil is not an issue.

2. I used Woodleigh 500 grain soft points which acted like FMJ bullets on the elk and did not open up at all.

3. The first shot was a high broadside shot that was too high for lung and too low for spine. So I had a big tracking job on my hands.

4. The 2nd shot was at 300 yards and was a good broadside lung shot. But the elk, having been spooked and run 2-3 miles, did not drop immediately. That shot too was with a Woodleigh and passed through with little damage.

5. The 3rd shot was with a Hawk bullet and it did devastating damage and dropped the elk.

I hope this clarifies it.

1. I wish Mr. Hoffman would post his experiences with the .270 and Elk on this thread.

2. I don't understand the facination with dropping animals on the spot. I shoot them through the heart/shoulders, wait a little, then go to where they fell, usually within 100 yds.

Mike

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Victory through superior firepower!

I hunt in the black timber where shots are going away now, so I retired the 270 for a 338, 9.3 and 375 so I can shoot them up the pipe and kill them before they go to the bottom of an Idaho canyon....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I would much rather see a serious elk hunter armed with a 30/06 than a 270 if he is recoil sensitive. I witnessed a big 350 class 6x6 bull travel over 1/2 mile after taking a broadside hit from a 150gr.Part. bullet fired from a 270win. Range was slightly over 300yds. This was a draw late hunt with snow on the ground for easy tracking. You could see the sprayed blood in the snow about every 12yds, it simply took a little time for that bull's lungs to fill up and die. What if another hunter heard the shots and managed to put that wounded bull down and claim it? Believe me it happens every year.

My personal minumum for elk is 30cal with 180gr premium bullets. Sorry 270win fans if you are offended by this post, your 270win is a fine elk cartridge out to 275-300yds.

Hell I was there too,
sure-shot

I never have shot an elk with a 30-30 but that was what my dad always used. I hunted with a Springfield M1896 30-40 Krag. We hunted in western Washington. I cannot remember ever loosing one. Keep in mind though that the woods up there are much denser than the Rockies and shots are at much closer range.

Todd E

So now you pack in twenty miles with or without an outfitter. Now you have rough terrain, maybe thick timber or rocky slides to contend with. You may be able to get your pack horse to your elk or you may have to pack em yourself. You will see the majority of your elk in the morning and at dusk. If it is the latter you will have to decide whether or not you will take the shot. Again your choice of cartridge(and bullets) can and will determine the outcome of the hunt.

I urge anyone who has the chance to examine an elk especially a bull which has been taken with a 338 bullet. Grab that front leg and move it around then examine the wound channel. The smaller bore folks will be humbled - guaranteed! I feel anyone who can shoot a 270 can learn to shoot a 338win mag with 210 bullets well enough to go elk hunting in the fall. sure-shot

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When in doubt, empty the magazine.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 500grains:

2. I used Woodleigh 500 grain soft points which acted like FMJ bullets on the elk and did not open up at all.

3. The first shot was a high broadside shot that was too high for lung and too low for spine. So I had a big tracking job on my hands.

4. The 2nd shot was at 300 yards and was a good broadside lung shot. But the elk, having been spooked and run 2-3 miles, did not drop immediately. That shot too was with a Woodleigh and passed through with little damage.

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And from this story we can conclude that proper bullet choice and placement is far more important than power.

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When in doubt, empty the magazine.