Which would be a better bear protection gun if hiking, etc. A large caliber such as a 458 Win Mag, or a big bore battle rifle like a M1A or FAL? Is the big bullet better or several smaller ones?

Kent

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Originally posted by Kent in IA:
After reading post on were to shoot a grizzly I got to thinking. Obviously, I wouldn't use a shotgun especially with buckshot. It sounds like there is very little time to aim also it sounds like you may need to hit the bear many times.

Which would be a better bear protection gun if hiking, etc. A large caliber such as a 458 Win Mag, or a big bore battle rifle like a M1A or FAL? Is the big bullet better or several smaller ones?

Kent

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The best brown bear close quarters back packing, camping, Emergency(NOT HUNTING THEM ON PURPOSE)save your ass gun there is period! is your favorite 12 guage, 18-20" bbl. extended mag tube loaded with A SLUG then #00 BUCK,slug,#00 BUCK, slug etc!!!!

have fun!

Out of your choices I would go with the 458. only because if a bear is gonna charge you, you will probably only get 1 or maybe 2 shots accurately. You can spray and pray all day long and it probabbly wont do a bit of good.
IMO I dont consider an M1 or a FAL a bigbore battle rifle. they are still 30 caliber. then again if your comfortable with it...........

If I had a Marlin guide gun, and was as comfortable with lever guns as I was with pumps or bolts, I'd probably choose that.

The easy , light, gun you pack is better than the elephant gun you leave in the truck...

A battle rifle isn't the solution.

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Good Shooting!

The other thing that reaaly confuses me is the use of the shotgun. On the other thread I read one guy mentioned the shotgun, which I thought was kinda stupid, and everyone basically agreed with me. Now everyone on this thread is pretty much saying use a 12 gauge with buckshot and/or slugs. I sorry that I question you guys, but if you read the grizzly target zone thread you will probably understand. That thread deals with a guy who I think is sheep hunting or something, at least not bear hunting, and asking for information as to what to do in case of a bear attack.

I consider the M1A, G3, FAL, etc big bore battle rifles. This is because they are chambered for the 308 instead of the 223. I am not aware of any battles rifles chambered for anything larger than the 308. The only reason I mentioned them is the other thread again where people were saying to shoot, shoot, shoot until the bear is dead. I figured that the battle rifles with their 20 round magazines would give the most shots in the time allowed.

Kent

[This message has been edited by beemanbeme (edited 01-27-2002).]

Here is my experience (some) with bears. You can arm yourself and go hunting for a couple of years and never see more than scat. Go for a hike just to see some of the beauty of creation and you can trip across one that has strayed from normal territory at very close range, like the first time you see the critter you can slap his face. This doesn't happen often, but the two agendas are not the same, hunting/hiking. In the hunting scenario, I would typically try to put myself at 100 yds or so, then pick my shot placement. In the defence scenario, ranges will be closer, because at 100 yds I would not pursue the animal, if I saw him first, meaning that I would retreat, that means the encounter when it happens will be one of those "where did he come from" things on my part and probably the bears part. I would be more interested with massive damage and large holes the closer the range. I guess why that is why the PH carries a "put down" type of rifle while the customer carries whatever.

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Good Shooting!

It deserves saying that a 12 Ga is not the only weapon that fills the bill. In fact, if you have the choices available, it may not be in the top three. Lots of us don't have better alternatives. I think of my Model 97 w/20" barrel as being capable of providing what I want in terms of defence, and in terms of ease of carry and accessability, moreso than my 44 Mag w/6" barrel, in the bear scenario.

[This message has been edited by 8MM OR MORE (edited 01-27-2002).]

I would carry a 12 gauge with slugs and 00. It is unlikely you will come across a bear if you remember to make alot of nose walking through the woods, but it could happen. The scary part is that if this bear has heard you coming and decided not to leave he must mean business.

I share your confusion about how when you are hunting a rifle is required to stop a charging bear, but if hiking you can get by with a shotgun, handgun, rifles, and even pepper spray. I guess these guys have never come across a sow overly protective of her cubs. Let me tell you she is beau coupe tougher than some shot up boar. But then I only hunt in bars.

Todd E

One year in another camp a friend lost a deer to a nite marauding black bear. The camp's occupants never woke up while the bear made off with one of the hanging bucks!

We were researching an area for moose hunting in Wyoming when the local game warden advised us to only shoot a moose where we could pack out the animal in one day. The reason was a high population of grizzlys in the area. "Shoot a moose in the evening and you will have a griz on it by morning" he told us. We've decided if we hunt this area we will hunt off the dirt roads in the evening to play it safe. sure-shot

The reason, my experience, that people carry different weapons for bear when hunting vs. defense is portability.

When hunting bear I'm carrying a rifle and am keyed up and expect to deal with the consequences to my hunting actions. When I'm fishing, hiking etc, I'm concentrating on things other than bears, so the weapon I chose is an easily portable one that I don't have to worry about knocking the scope off when I set it down to fish a pool. Having said that my current bear hunting rifle is a 300 WSM with 200gr Barnes X, non hunting DEFENSE weapons are .44mag with 300gr hard cast in a shoulder holster and Remington 870 with 18" bbl and extended mag loaded with 8, 2 3/4 inch slugs. These weapons are easy to carry and easy to use and at close SURPRISE ranges are very deadly on bears.

...Peter

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 01-28-2002).]

THE SNUB-NOSED .38+P IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO!!!

No, it won't stop the bear. Heck it won't even slow it down!! BUT, you might have enough time to empty the first 2-3 cylinders on yourself! Oh, and the other advantage is that it will be light and easy to carry.

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Toxophilie and carry a bent stick.
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I agree a shotgun will kill a bear at close range with proper ammunition. It is not what I carry when actually hunting bear. Is it a perfect bear killing weapon, NO, but it is easy to carry, works well if wet, muddy, covered in sand, bouncing around in the bottom of a canoe etc, and is very quick in tight situations.

...Peter

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Originally posted by Peter Walker:
Todd

I agree a shotgun will kill a bear at close range with proper ammunition. It is not what I carry when actually hunting bear. Is it a perfect bear killing weapon, NO, but it is easy to carry, works well if wet, muddy, covered in sand, bouncing around in the bottom of a canoe etc, and is very quick in tight situations.

...Peter

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That's pretty much what I was trying to say too...

If I'm hunting, I'll already be carrying a rifle. Rifles are better on big creatures-that's why PH's carry them, and not shotguns.

A short barreled shotgun, loaded with slugs, is easily portable if you are taking a gun along for the ride. Slugs are very deadly, but (generaly) do not penetrate as well as a bullet.

If I was going into an area known for grizzlies, I would choose the rifle, regardless of portability.

Probably the slickest (in my mind) bear stopper I've seen was in Rifle magazine. It was a short barreled .458 Wwin, built on a CRF action. It had a synthetic stock, and a low power Leupold, along with irons. this belonged to Phil Shoemaker if I'm not mistaken. He guides in Alaska, as well as writes.

Also, if I'm hunting, I'm not going to carry around a shotgun ahnging from my neck as well as a rifle!

They can run at 30 mph.Also down hill.

The gun you want is BIG with a lot of power.
Be able to shoot it darn good.Cause with luck you will maybe get off one shot.A bolt gun that would be all you would get Lever gun maybe 1 and if very lucky 2.
A shot gun with slugs would be as good as any with slugs CLOSE up.
I carry a black hawk 44 mag 320 gr hard lead with max load 1325 fps.
Sort of like whistle going pass a grave yard at night too.
The 375 H&H will be fine but you may wish you had a 416 Rem or bigger when the time comes.
Have been all over Kodiak and very close to bear.Not hunting them.Never had a problems.always armed,they will look you over if they see you from a distance.But you never know what they are going to do.

My 2 cent's.shot what you brung.

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frogman

Just being a smart-ass and add a little humor here. Hope I didn't offend anyone....

Seriously though, I'm not sure there is a definite answer to this. I have two friends who fish alaska each summer. One carries a 12ga w/slugs, the other doesn't even worry about it. He says using your head is your best deffence, and, he's never had a problem. The other has used his shot gun sucessfully on two different occasions. Both are believers.

Having never been around big bears myself, I think I would probably just carry the shotgun to help make up for any common-bear-sense that I lack.

Good luck!

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Toxophilie and carry a bent stick.
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My nephew helped hunt one down a couple of years ago that had mauled their wrangler. The wrangler had carried a .44 which was emptied into the bear before the bear bit his head.

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JD

Kent, just because you have a hi-cap magazine doesnt mean that you will be able to get off all the rounds, like frogman said, if your not ready for the attack hes more than likely got you.

I just wish these bear threads would produce something better than shotgun vs rifle arguments. You want to carry a shotgun, great for you, if it works for you than dont change it. Just because someone disagrees with you dont take it personnal. jeeze, some people have real thin skin I guess.

The Alakska fish and game say the shot gun is a poor choice.Or was it the Park service up here.
They issue the help with the old 30/06 for just in case
Some say make a lot of nosie,carry a cow bell.
Don't run from them,You are like a car ,dogs think it's cool to chase them.
On the McNeal River lots of folk go to watch bear in the river eating salmon.It is the river you see on TV with bear catching salom.no attack's that I know.But you have a AF&G or Ranger with you.He has a gun and spay.
The big thing with bear is to keep your cool.If they see you,they will look you over and 99.9 times out of ten they won't be a thret .Moma and cub's a very bad combo.She think's you are about to hurt them you are in deep trouble.She is on the prod right now.They are fast as hell and cover ground real fast.You have the one shot,maybe two.at that point you had better have broke them down.Wounded they are hell on wheels.
Go to the Anchorage Daily news.Check out the bear attacks.Think I have heard about 6 this past year.
When out in the woods,keep your eyes open,check your back side offten.
In Anchorage bear are folk porch licking the food out of bird feeders at time's.
There all sort's of bear books out there.
my 2 cents

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frogman

God created Linebaugh 475, and 500 for heavy game, like bears.

The new 480, heavy slug, modest velocity would work, and, a 454 Casull, with 360 grain bullets, or, even a measly old 45 Linebaugh colt, with 345 grain, bullets at 1550 killed a cape buffalo.

You can get a SAA out of a holster faster then you can bring a shotgun to bear, if you practice...

gs

I gave SERIOUS thought to building a short barreled Garand in 35Whelen. Haven't done it yet.

I think the M1A with X bullets,is the one I've the most faith in. The safety is easier for me to manipulate,than the HK. It weighs about the same as the Garand and offers more capacity.

A charging Bear leads with his head. A CNS hit,is your only salvation. For that reason a bullet that offers much penetration,is most important to me.

I always felt pretty secure fishing the streams on Kodiak,with the M1A. All last year here,I toted the Garand,because I sold my M1A's.

Next year,I'll likely tote the HK,as I'm trying to gain competence with the safety.

I HUNT a 375H&H Improved. Hunting is different,as that is a much more controlled environment.

"Defense" reminds me of Terrorism. You don't know what the hell is going to happen,or when. It is best in my opinion,to be able to capably handle the worst of threats. Anything less than that,is business as usual.

Your mileage,may vary..............

If you load with slugs, then you have no benefit over a rifle, and quite a detriment. Do a penetration test with a slug, and figure if you feel confident with its performance.

Simply put, shotguns are cheap, and that is there sole benefit.

I would take a heavy loaded revolver over a shotgun any day, they are lighter, easier to pack, and out penetrate a shotgun handily.

If I am truly concerned with bear protection, then the answer is simple, a heavy rifle, ie 40 caliber and up. If you think something else is the answer, than either you haven't applied critical thinking to the issue, or you feel lucky.

It is much better to be un armed and cautios, then poorly armed and confident.

Your wits are the most important thing you carry. Couple that with a tool that will do the job and you are in very good shape.

Always struck me as funny,all the shotgun talk,regarding defense. Call a Guide on Kodiak and tell him you are contemplating booking a Hunt,but wish to use your pet 12ga. Be prepared for a less than enthusiastic response,or to get hung up on.

"Walk softly and carry a big stick". Seems I've heard that mentioned before?...............(grin)

Robert

Did you tell the bear he had to expose himself, at long range, prior to eating you?

I thought bears fairly good at wood craft, being able to move very quickly, with no noise, hiding their bulk, and ambushing prey, before they have any clue of what hit them?

gs

I think that you might have bears mixed up with I.R.S. "bean counters!"

But seriously, in 2001, I had 22 brown bear sightings ranging from 500 yards to 10 feet.
Let me tell you that when someone suggests there was no warning and the bear just appeared at "x" feet...I would have to dissagree. IMO, there is always warning. Some folks or many folks simply are not equipped to acknowledge/recognize those warnings. Yes, there are people who should not ever venture outside of their homes; some have no woodcraft and others think that they possess "tons" of it. I do not think that for one minute I recognize all of the myriad ways with which a bear could manifest it's self. I do know that being aware of my surroundings is the first step in preventing an attack in the first place. Thats why most of the Alaskans I know recommend the good old "thinkin cap" as the first line of defense, and a large bore rifle as the next.
best,
bhtr

They seem quite handy and must be better then any handgun........good shooting......10