Bear Protection

27 January 2002, 17:31

Kent in IA

Bear Protection

After reading post on were to shoot a grizzly I got to thinking. Obviously, I wouldn't use a shotgun especially with buckshot. It sounds like there is very little time to aim also it sounds like you may need to hit the bear many times.

Which would be a better bear protection gun if hiking, etc. A large caliber such as a 458 Win Mag, or a big bore battle rifle like a M1A or FAL? Is the big bullet better or several smaller ones?

Kent

27 January 2002, 18:39

tsturm

quote:
Originally posted by Kent in IA:
After reading post on were to shoot a grizzly I got to thinking. Obviously, I wouldn't use a shotgun especially with buckshot. It sounds like there is very little time to aim also it sounds like you may need to hit the bear many times.
Which would be a better bear protection gun if hiking, etc. A large caliber such as a 458 Win Mag, or a big bore battle rifle like a M1A or FAL? Is the big bullet better or several smaller ones?
Kent

The best brown bear close quarters back packing, camping, Emergency(NOT HUNTING THEM ON PURPOSE)save your ass gun there is period! is your favorite 12 guage, 18-20" bbl. extended mag tube loaded with A SLUG then #00 BUCK,slug,#00 BUCK, slug etc!!!!

have fun!

27 January 2002, 19:10

JoelS

Its all personnal preferance. TS recommends a shotgun. I prefer a rifle. Carry whatever you are comfortable with. There really isnt a wrong answer as long as you are comfortable and practice with your weapon.

Out of your choices I would go with the 458. only because if a bear is gonna charge you, you will probably only get 1 or maybe 2 shots accurately. You can spray and pray all day long and it probabbly wont do a bit of good.
IMO I dont consider an M1 or a FAL a bigbore battle rifle. they are still 30 caliber. then again if your comfortable with it...........

27 January 2002, 19:33

<sure-shot>

The Yosemite Park rangers in my neck of the woods use 12ga pumps for back-up when dealing with problem black bears some of which will go up to and above 500lbs. I don't know what loads they are using but they have to put one down now and then when they show too much aggression. The rangers use to train the newbies at the in-door range here in town. sure-shot

27 January 2002, 19:47

Gatehouse

There is a difference between hunting and protection. I often pack a short shotgun with slugs and one load of 3" -000, when I am just hiking or fishing. It is portable and easily packable. Bear spray is ok too...

If I had a Marlin guide gun, and was as comfortable with lever guns as I was with pumps or bolts, I'd probably choose that.

The easy , light, gun you pack is better than the elephant gun you leave in the truck...

A battle rifle isn't the solution.

27 January 2002, 20:04

8MM OR MORE

I have been literally nose to nose with mama Brown while hiking in the Eagle River area years ago. There is nothing I could carry in my hands that would make me feel totally safe in that situation again. The power of one of these creatures that has adrenaylin thru his blood and wants to go somewhere or do something is incredible. The 12 Ga with alternating loads would work for defense, I think, but you have to be able to stand and deliver while every instinct is screaming run. Yes it can be done, but that bear may not know you killed it for 1-1 1/2 min after the fact, an eternity if it is mobile. Immobilize him, then kill him. Just my opinion. I have dropped blacks with one shot from 270, like a lightning bolt, course they weren't full of adrenalyn and mad at me. Large Browns are one of the critters you should maybe overgun yourself for. Again, just my opinion.

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Good Shooting!

28 January 2002, 09:29

<ovis>

I feel that the best protection is common sense knowledge that keeps you out of most dangerous situations , but for those that you have to stand in there and settle things, you need to be carrying the largest caliber THAT YOU SHOOT VERY, VERY WELL!

27 January 2002, 22:13

Rusty Gunn

"Shotgun blain" aughta be joining in soon.

For me, I use a large enough big bore, like a 45-70 or 444 Marlin, or a strong bolt action, like a 338 mag, for such protection.
When in the tent, I use a 45LC revolver with 325 grainers. Very easy to swing about in a tent, it points where ever your hand goes. Try to swing a rifle/shotgun about in a tent, at night, as a bear is scratching you out of you sleeping bag! ~~~Suluuq

28 January 2002, 01:07

p dog shooter

If you are using a shotgun forget the buck and go with all slugs. At the ranges your talking about the buck isn't going to open up enough to help with hitting and they lack the pentration needed to break bone. put ghost ring stites on it. If going with a rifle a good rifle of 270 and above for smaller bears blks and up land grizzy well work. For the really large bears something of 338 or bigger.
Every firearm is to big and heavy when you have to carry all the time. Nothing is big enough when something is trying to eat you.
When you can't carry a long gun I prefer a 357 and above revolver. Any gun is better than a sharp stick or rock.

28 January 2002, 03:14

Kent in IA

Thanks for the wisdom. I am a little confused on why hunting situations are different than self defense situations. In both aren't you trying to kill the bear. Actually, isn't the self defense situation worse because you now have an angry bear to deal with, while in the hunting situation the bear is most likely unaware of your presence?

The other thing that reaaly confuses me is the use of the shotgun. On the other thread I read one guy mentioned the shotgun, which I thought was kinda stupid, and everyone basically agreed with me. Now everyone on this thread is pretty much saying use a 12 gauge with buckshot and/or slugs. I sorry that I question you guys, but if you read the grizzly target zone thread you will probably understand. That thread deals with a guy who I think is sheep hunting or something, at least not bear hunting, and asking for information as to what to do in case of a bear attack.

I consider the M1A, G3, FAL, etc big bore battle rifles. This is because they are chambered for the 308 instead of the 223. I am not aware of any battles rifles chambered for anything larger than the 308. The only reason I mentioned them is the other thread again where people were saying to shoot, shoot, shoot until the bear is dead. I figured that the battle rifles with their 20 round magazines would give the most shots in the time allowed.

Kent

28 January 2002, 03:43

<Daryl Elder>

Mossberg 590 w/ 14"bbl., speedfeed stock, ghostring sights, slug, slug, 0 buck, 0 buck, etc.. Compact and plenty of accurate firepower.

28 January 2002, 07:02

beemanbeme

At hat-tippin' distances, I would take a 12 gauge shotgun over anything. Pistol grip only, no stock. Barrel as short as the law allowed. extended mag. No sights, front nor rear. Nothing to hang up. AND PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE BRINGING IT TO BEAR (no pun intended) That's something you can do in your livingroom. (with the gun unloaded, of course)
Considering the distance a great bear can cover in scant seconds, if you are fishing, hiking, or doing most anything other than actively hunting bears, the bear is going to be on you before you are aware of the peril. Even if you have a 8000 calibre moonrocket, if its in a long gun configeration, you ain't goin' to get it into use. The same is probably true with the short shotgun or pistol. The difference is that if you are having to make your stand from underneath the bear, the shotgun or pistol MIGHT save your life. The rifle would be worthless.

[This message has been edited by beemanbeme (edited 01-27-2002).]

28 January 2002, 07:08

8MM OR MORE

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kent in IA:
[B]Thanks for the wisdom. I am a little confused on why hunting situations are different than self defense situations. In both aren't you trying to kill the bear.

Here is my experience (some) with bears. You can arm yourself and go hunting for a couple of years and never see more than scat. Go for a hike just to see some of the beauty of creation and you can trip across one that has strayed from normal territory at very close range, like the first time you see the critter you can slap his face. This doesn't happen often, but the two agendas are not the same, hunting/hiking. In the hunting scenario, I would typically try to put myself at 100 yds or so, then pick my shot placement. In the defence scenario, ranges will be closer, because at 100 yds I would not pursue the animal, if I saw him first, meaning that I would retreat, that means the encounter when it happens will be one of those "where did he come from" things on my part and probably the bears part. I would be more interested with massive damage and large holes the closer the range. I guess why that is why the PH carries a "put down" type of rifle while the customer carries whatever.

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Good Shooting!

It deserves saying that a 12 Ga is not the only weapon that fills the bill. In fact, if you have the choices available, it may not be in the top three. Lots of us don't have better alternatives. I think of my Model 97 w/20" barrel as being capable of providing what I want in terms of defence, and in terms of ease of carry and accessability, moreso than my 44 Mag w/6" barrel, in the bear scenario.

[This message has been edited by 8MM OR MORE (edited 01-27-2002).]

28 January 2002, 09:13

<500 AHR>

Kent,

I would carry a 12 gauge with slugs and 00. It is unlikely you will come across a bear if you remember to make alot of nose walking through the woods, but it could happen. The scary part is that if this bear has heard you coming and decided not to leave he must mean business.

I share your confusion about how when you are hunting a rifle is required to stop a charging bear, but if hiking you can get by with a shotgun, handgun, rifles, and even pepper spray. I guess these guys have never come across a sow overly protective of her cubs. Let me tell you she is beau coupe tougher than some shot up boar. But then I only hunt in bars.

Todd E

28 January 2002, 12:04

<sure-shot>

One thing to keep in mind when hunting game animals other than bears is you may still have a bear encounter while packing out your kill. Here in the Sierras at our pack camp we keep all our food in a metal footlocker and rig bells around camp at bedtime. So far so good but who can say what the future holds. If we shoot a deer it must be boned and packed out on the spot. Leave it in the woods overnite and I guarantee a bear will find it. If we venture near the kill site again its full alert, rifle ready.

One year in another camp a friend lost a deer to a nite marauding black bear. The camp's occupants never woke up while the bear made off with one of the hanging bucks!

We were researching an area for moose hunting in Wyoming when the local game warden advised us to only shoot a moose where we could pack out the animal in one day. The reason was a high population of grizzlys in the area. "Shoot a moose in the evening and you will have a griz on it by morning" he told us. We've decided if we hunt this area we will hunt off the dirt roads in the evening to play it safe. sure-shot

28 January 2002, 14:59

<Peter Walker>

Kent

The reason, my experience, that people carry different weapons for bear when hunting vs. defense is portability.

When hunting bear I'm carrying a rifle and am keyed up and expect to deal with the consequences to my hunting actions. When I'm fishing, hiking etc, I'm concentrating on things other than bears, so the weapon I chose is an easily portable one that I don't have to worry about knocking the scope off when I set it down to fish a pool. Having said that my current bear hunting rifle is a 300 WSM with 200gr Barnes X, non hunting DEFENSE weapons are .44mag with 300gr hard cast in a shoulder holster and Remington 870 with 18" bbl and extended mag loaded with 8, 2 3/4 inch slugs. These weapons are easy to carry and easy to use and at close SURPRISE ranges are very deadly on bears.

...Peter

29 January 2002, 02:31

<500 AHR>

So Peter you would agree with me that the shotgun can kill a bear. Imagine that someone else agrees with me. Now why is that soooo many others have said I am full of sh!t!

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 01-28-2002).]

29 January 2002, 14:38

<waldog>

If you have an enraged costal brown bear about to rip your legs off then thrash the rest of your pitiful little body...

THE SNUB-NOSED .38+P IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO!!!

No, it won't stop the bear. Heck it won't even slow it down!! BUT, you might have enough time to empty the first 2-3 cylinders on yourself! Oh, and the other advantage is that it will be light and easy to carry.

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>>>--------------------->
Toxophilie and carry a bent stick.
<---------------------<<<

29 January 2002, 15:17

<Peter Walker>

Todd

I agree a shotgun will kill a bear at close range with proper ammunition. It is not what I carry when actually hunting bear. Is it a perfect bear killing weapon, NO, but it is easy to carry, works well if wet, muddy, covered in sand, bouncing around in the bottom of a canoe etc, and is very quick in tight situations.

...Peter

29 January 2002, 19:35

Gatehouse

quote:
Originally posted by Peter Walker:
Todd
I agree a shotgun will kill a bear at close range with proper ammunition. It is not what I carry when actually hunting bear. Is it a perfect bear killing weapon, NO, but it is easy to carry, works well if wet, muddy, covered in sand, bouncing around in the bottom of a canoe etc, and is very quick in tight situations.
...Peter

That's pretty much what I was trying to say too...

If I'm hunting, I'll already be carrying a rifle. Rifles are better on big creatures-that's why PH's carry them, and not shotguns.

A short barreled shotgun, loaded with slugs, is easily portable if you are taking a gun along for the ride. Slugs are very deadly, but (generaly) do not penetrate as well as a bullet.

If I was going into an area known for grizzlies, I would choose the rifle, regardless of portability.

Probably the slickest (in my mind) bear stopper I've seen was in Rifle magazine. It was a short barreled .458 Wwin, built on a CRF action. It had a synthetic stock, and a low power Leupold, along with irons. this belonged to Phil Shoemaker if I'm not mistaken. He guides in Alaska, as well as writes.

Also, if I'm hunting, I'm not going to carry around a shotgun ahnging from my neck as well as a rifle!

29 January 2002, 20:10

<frogman>

Well if you are not looking /hunting.
The bear will most like come from behind or from the side.You could also come up on one in high cover ,grass ferns or alders.
This will happen at vear close range like 20 to 30 feet.It is going to hit you real hard as a rule a swat with a paw.If that doesnt kill you the next move is you are in a bear hug,with your head in it's mouth peeling your scalp and most of your face off .If you are lucky it bites thru your shoulder.You go down at whice point it mauls you some more.If you are dead it may eat a little then cover you up for later.

They can run at 30 mph.Also down hill.

The gun you want is BIG with a lot of power.
Be able to shoot it darn good.Cause with luck you will maybe get off one shot.A bolt gun that would be all you would get Lever gun maybe 1 and if very lucky 2.
A shot gun with slugs would be as good as any with slugs CLOSE up.
I carry a black hawk 44 mag 320 gr hard lead with max load 1325 fps.
Sort of like whistle going pass a grave yard at night too.
The 375 H&H will be fine but you may wish you had a 416 Rem or bigger when the time comes.
Have been all over Kodiak and very close to bear.Not hunting them.Never had a problems.always armed,they will look you over if they see you from a distance.But you never know what they are going to do.

My 2 cent's.shot what you brung.

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frogman

30 January 2002, 01:30

p dog shooter

Waldog Yes it might stop him put one in his ear or up his nose and brain him.Are you going to be better off if you don't.If you have research any amout of bear attacts it isn't aways a large bear that trys to eat you. A 38 stub with plus p ammo would do for a bear in the 150 lb range or why are you so willing to give up your life with out a fight. The idea of bending over and kissing your butt good bye never appealed to me. I much rather stick the 38 in his ear and pull the trigger then in my own. The idea that handguns are not for protection I belive started with the anti's they want you to talk nice to the bear. They might not be the best but they sure do beat your fists.

30 January 2002, 04:15

<waldog>

p dog,

Just being a smart-ass and add a little humor here. Hope I didn't offend anyone....

Seriously though, I'm not sure there is a definite answer to this. I have two friends who fish alaska each summer. One carries a 12ga w/slugs, the other doesn't even worry about it. He says using your head is your best deffence, and, he's never had a problem. The other has used his shot gun sucessfully on two different occasions. Both are believers.

Having never been around big bears myself, I think I would probably just carry the shotgun to help make up for any common-bear-sense that I lack.

Good luck!

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>>>--------------------->
Toxophilie and carry a bent stick.
<---------------------<<<

30 January 2002, 09:45

beemanbeme

Geez, p dog, lighten up. The guy was kidding. AND, his post made as much sense as some of the others.

30 January 2002, 15:54

My bear defense is a .35 Whelen pump; it's also my preferred elk gun. When I'm elk hunting, it carries a low power Leupold. For bear defense, the scope comes off. I normally elk hunt where there's good bear populations. I've only had a couple of very close encounters with Grizz so far. Haven't had to pull the trigger so far, but I did wet myself once.

My nephew helped hunt one down a couple of years ago that had mauled their wrangler. The wrangler had carried a .44 which was emptied into the bear before the bear bit his head.

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JD

30 January 2002, 17:39

JoelS

You want to carry a shotgun, go for it. its your butt you gotta save not mine. I know what I'm comfortable with.

Kent, just because you have a hi-cap magazine doesnt mean that you will be able to get off all the rounds, like frogman said, if your not ready for the attack hes more than likely got you.

I just wish these bear threads would produce something better than shotgun vs rifle arguments. You want to carry a shotgun, great for you, if it works for you than dont change it. Just because someone disagrees with you dont take it personnal. jeeze, some people have real thin skin I guess.

30 January 2002, 19:15

<frogman>

Well gang

The Alakska fish and game say the shot gun is a poor choice.Or was it the Park service up here.
They issue the help with the old 30/06 for just in case
Some say make a lot of nosie,carry a cow bell.
Don't run from them,You are like a car ,dogs think it's cool to chase them.
On the McNeal River lots of folk go to watch bear in the river eating salmon.It is the river you see on TV with bear catching salom.no attack's that I know.But you have a AF&G or Ranger with you.He has a gun and spay.
The big thing with bear is to keep your cool.If they see you,they will look you over and 99.9 times out of ten they won't be a thret .Moma and cub's a very bad combo.She think's you are about to hurt them you are in deep trouble.She is on the prod right now.They are fast as hell and cover ground real fast.You have the one shot,maybe two.at that point you had better have broke them down.Wounded they are hell on wheels.
Go to the Anchorage Daily news.Check out the bear attacks.Think I have heard about 6 this past year.
When out in the woods,keep your eyes open,check your back side offten.
In Anchorage bear are folk porch licking the food out of bird feeders at time's.
There all sort's of bear books out there.
my 2 cents

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frogman

30 January 2002, 19:38

Socrates

Sorry ass group of comments.
Carry the biggest damn handgun you can fire.

God created Linebaugh 475, and 500 for heavy game, like bears.

The new 480, heavy slug, modest velocity would work, and, a 454 Casull, with 360 grain bullets, or, even a measly old 45 Linebaugh colt, with 345 grain, bullets at 1550 killed a cape buffalo.

You can get a SAA out of a holster faster then you can bring a shotgun to bear, if you practice...

30 January 2002, 20:05

<Big Stick>

I've carried a 378Wby,375H&H Improved,M1 Garand,M1A and HK-91,when on "high alert"in Bear Country. You couldn't give me a shotgun(had a SPAS-12 also,but never packed it for Bears)or a pistol,that I'd bet MY life upon. If others wish to bet theirs on such instruments,that is their business and no concern of mine.

I gave SERIOUS thought to building a short barreled Garand in 35Whelen. Haven't done it yet.

I think the M1A with X bullets,is the one I've the most faith in. The safety is easier for me to manipulate,than the HK. It weighs about the same as the Garand and offers more capacity.

A charging Bear leads with his head. A CNS hit,is your only salvation. For that reason a bullet that offers much penetration,is most important to me.

I always felt pretty secure fishing the streams on Kodiak,with the M1A. All last year here,I toted the Garand,because I sold my M1A's.

Next year,I'll likely tote the HK,as I'm trying to gain competence with the safety.

I HUNT a 375H&H Improved. Hunting is different,as that is a much more controlled environment.

"Defense" reminds me of Terrorism. You don't know what the hell is going to happen,or when. It is best in my opinion,to be able to capably handle the worst of threats. Anything less than that,is business as usual.

Your mileage,may vary..............

31 January 2002, 04:24

Pathfinder

OK let's see if I have this all right:
Thinking is the best defense..but you can't think for the bear. YEP
While hiking, make noise so as to not surprise the bear. YEP
Some chance is better than no chance so be armed. YEP
Bigger is better but only if you know how to use what you got. Yep
Always be prepared. YEP
I think I'm ready for griz country....again.

31 January 2002, 05:55

p dog shooter

Pathfinder I belive you hit the nail on the head.

31 January 2002, 06:16

JeffP

Ditto Ovis

31 January 2002, 06:19

Paul H

I used to carry a shotgun, then I decided to do some testing with the loads at the range. What I found was, if one uses buckshot with the theory that the patterning allows less then precise placement, it means you are hoping that a single pellet will do the job. If you calculate what a single round ball out of a OO load is equivalent to, its on par with a 380 auto, not my idea of a bear gun!

If you load with slugs, then you have no benefit over a rifle, and quite a detriment. Do a penetration test with a slug, and figure if you feel confident with its performance.

Simply put, shotguns are cheap, and that is there sole benefit.

I would take a heavy loaded revolver over a shotgun any day, they are lighter, easier to pack, and out penetrate a shotgun handily.

If I am truly concerned with bear protection, then the answer is simple, a heavy rifle, ie 40 caliber and up. If you think something else is the answer, than either you haven't applied critical thinking to the issue, or you feel lucky.

It is much better to be un armed and cautios, then poorly armed and confident.

31 January 2002, 06:56

<Big Stick>

Yes there is a drastic difference between paranoia and having the right tool for the job.

Your wits are the most important thing you carry. Couple that with a tool that will do the job and you are in very good shape.

Always struck me as funny,all the shotgun talk,regarding defense. Call a Guide on Kodiak and tell him you are contemplating booking a Hunt,but wish to use your pet 12ga. Be prepared for a less than enthusiastic response,or to get hung up on.

"Walk softly and carry a big stick". Seems I've heard that mentioned before?...............(grin)

31 January 2002, 09:24

bearhunt'r

Just wanted to stage a hypothetical question. What if you took this question to the African forum and changed the word Grizzley or Brown Bear to Lion or Buffalo?
I think that most experienced hunters and PH's would choose something other than a shotgun. What do you think.
best,
bhtr

31 January 2002, 09:34

<rwj>

A year or so ago I took a short day-long class with a follow-up practicle at the gun range on defending your self against bears and how to act resposnbily in bear territory. I totally agree with Paul on the use of a gun that can penetrate deeply and I agree with Ovis on being smart in the woods AND carry a big gun that you can use. In the course I took, offered by the BLM in Anchorage, they listed the guns that where preferred for self defense against an attacking bear. They recommended a short barrled pump 12 gauge with slugs or a rifle no smaller than a .30-06, with something bigger being better. They did not recommend hand guns, but it was acknowledged that up until the past few years, most hand guns and their bullets simply were not up to the task, whereas today both modern handguns and the new bullets will absolutley flatten most things on earth (for example 454 Casull). I cannot operate a hand gun well enough to have confidence in it. I think shotguns have the advantage of being short and relatively portable and delivering a large piece of lead that can make a large hole at close range. I prefer to carry one of my rifles, .378 or .416, when I need bear protection. I ascribe to the self defense theory that one should shoot the bear long before it gets too close, and explain myself later. The major point of the class was that bears move very fast and are hard to hit when they deside to charge-attack, and if you can get a shot off with any gun, and hit the bear, you will be doing good.

Robert

01 February 2002, 09:35

Socrates

"I ascribe to the self defense theory that one should shoot the bear long before it gets too close, and explain myself later. The major point of the class was that bears move very fast and are hard to hit when they deside to charge-attack, and if you can get a shot off with any gun, and hit the bear, you will be doing good.
Robert "

Did you tell the bear he had to expose himself, at long range, prior to eating you?

I thought bears fairly good at wood craft, being able to move very quickly, with no noise, hiding their bulk, and ambushing prey, before they have any clue of what hit them?

01 February 2002, 12:59

bearhunt'r

[QUOTE]
I thought bears fairly good at wood craft, being able to move very quickly, with no noise, hiding their bulk, and ambushing prey, before they have any clue of what hit them?

I think that you might have bears mixed up with I.R.S. "bean counters!"

But seriously, in 2001, I had 22 brown bear sightings ranging from 500 yards to 10 feet.
Let me tell you that when someone suggests there was no warning and the bear just appeared at "x" feet...I would have to dissagree. IMO, there is always warning. Some folks or many folks simply are not equipped to acknowledge/recognize those warnings. Yes, there are people who should not ever venture outside of their homes; some have no woodcraft and others think that they possess "tons" of it. I do not think that for one minute I recognize all of the myriad ways with which a bear could manifest it's self. I do know that being aware of my surroundings is the first step in preventing an attack in the first place. Thats why most of the Alaskans I know recommend the good old "thinkin cap" as the first line of defense, and a large bore rifle as the next.
best,
bhtr