If you proposed to dicipline yourself to hunt Elk at bow ranges & to take the same body shots as you would by bow, but wanted to do it with a Rifle that has:
- minimum possible recoil
- sufficient effective penetration & wound channel

which case/bore/bullet would you decide on?

Remember, Im talking bow range, I dont want to down load a bigger than necessary cartridge and I dont want a cartridge for longer ranges "just in case",....I simply want the cartridge that has enough punch at its more normal loadings to efficiently do the job.
-Cheers.

leverevolution 30-30

Agreed, the 30-30 is the ticket

for elk at bow range? wouln't hesitate to use the 243 or 25-06
both will "get the job done"

7mm mauser or the American equivelant, the 7mm08 would be my next choices, but only with hand loads.

quote:

Originally posted by 375hnh:
7mm mauser or the American equivelant, the 7mm08 would be my next choices, but only with hand loads.

My choice as well....with good bullets.

35 Remington, way better than the 30-30 and you can use 200 grain factory ammo.

The .308 would be my pick, in a short, light rifle.

Originally posted by DC Roxby:
.35 Whelen or 9.3x62....or a .22 behind the ear.

Seriously, I don't think I would choose a different caliber for 40 yards than I would for 200. Elk don't get any smaller as you get closer to them. You mentioned "little" but I would not consider using a .243 which is basically the minimum legal caliber in Colorado. I guess I would choose a .270 with 150 grn Nosler Partitions. You need a bullet that will open quickly and reliably at higher velocities and stay in one piece. The .308 as mentioned would be a good choice as well. Nothing wrong with a 30-30 either I suppose. The idea of using an open sighted lever action rifle sounds pretty appealing.

Before you decide to go too small, consider if you'll be hunting in grizzly country. Skulking around in the dark timber smelling like elk urine and call calling in grizzly country can bring in more than elk.

6.5x55mm with 156gr Norma bullets loaded to about 2400 fps.

.358 Winchester is another good'un. Even a .308 or .300 Savage with a 180gr bullet.

quote:

Before you decide to go too small, consider if you'll be hunting in grizzly country. Skulking around in the dark timber smelling like elk urine and call cow calling in grizzly country can bring in more than elk.

In that case I'd carry a baseball-size rock or two.
Been there, done that.

As the best little rifle...+1 for the .30-30, or my .44 mag Super blackhawk.

The man asked about minimum recoil. A well placed 243 100gr bullet to the head or neck which is very acheivable within 60 yds will lay one out for a flat dirt nap.

quote:

Originally posted by 30378:
The man asked about minimum recoil. A well placed 243 100gr bullet to the head or neck which is very acheivable within 60 yds will lay one out for a flat dirt nap.

True, but he also specifically stated he wanted to "take the same body shots as you would by bow".

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
If you proposed to dicipline yourself to hunt Elk at bow ranges & to take the same body shots as you would by bow, but wanted to do it with a Rifle that has:
- minimum possible recoil
- sufficient effective penetration & wound channel

which case/bore/bullet would you decide on?

Remember, Im talking bow range, I dont want to down load a bigger than necessary cartridge and I dont want a cartridge for longer ranges "just in case",....I simply want the cartridge that has enough punch at its more normal loadings to efficiently do the job.
-Cheers.

Trax,

If not for your "minimum possible recoil" requirement I'd pick a 45/70!

With that minimum - I'd pick a 35 Rem in a lever action rifle.

Assuming where you are hunting doesn't have a minimum caliber requirement, I would opt for a 30-30, 35 Rem, 44 mag or larger, or your favorite 50 caliber or larger black powder rifle (with open sights or low power scope).

I'm partial to a fast sighting lever gun in a common "brush" caliber.

30-30 or 35 remington.

My choice would be the 38/55....250gr .375 caliber bullet really lets the air out of'em
And at 1800fps it's very pleasent to shoot out of a 24" Marlin. It's my wife's choice and she is recoil sensitive to say the least. Think about it, it's a fine ol cartridge.

Rossi lever gun in 454 casull.

35Rem, great choice!!

I keep thinking a large pistol caiber such as 44-40, 44 mag, 45 LC or 454 Casull in a autoloading or lever action might fit the bill. If my 4-5/8" Ruger BH in 45 LC can take down a 62" Alaska/Yukon bull moose @ 15 yds, I figure something in the same or similar caliber can do it in a rifle length barrel.

Alan

GSSP is correct. Hard to better define the solution for the problem posed than a 44 mag shooting a 310-320 grain Hardcast or 45LC shooting a 320-360 grain Hardcast in a short lever rifle. Mount a nice recoil pad if that feels better to you and have fun.

Any rifle dia bullet in the .308 case or bigger.....this leaves alot out that are fine but hell it would be easier to name the ones that are too small than just wright.

6.5x55 Swedish Mauser.

Guess I have to ask 'why handicap yourself?' Are we into one of those threads simply talking about how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin? A make-believe thread? If you can't arm yourself and/or handle a 35 Remington, 300 Savage, 308, 7mm-08, 6.5x55, 38x55, (a 30-30?) all of which are do-able but low end elk cartridges at close range, then why even bother to go elk hunting?

I suppose that once-upon-a-time an elk was killed with a 22 Hornet, but why? Don't try to tell me that you happen to live in elk country, they are standing around your back door, you have to feed your kids protein and that is all you got.

If you can afford an elk license, can afford to get to where they are at, have the where-for-all to put yourself into position to shoot one, then use the right tool for the job. No, it doesn't take a 378 Roy to kill and elk but let's not get silly just to see what happens if they get shot with a .40 S&W.

No one said its about not being able to handle more recoil...it may simply be ones choice to have a rifle with less unecessary Power & recoil- but still proper ability to do an elk at bow distance.
If people can take their elk at 200-300yds+? with their say their 7x57 or 308win, ...then simply for personal reasons I may like to maybe figure a rifle with a less powerful more efficient round,that delivers the same kind of 308win +/- 300yd power,... at 30-40yds.
If 7mm08/3o8win is good for 300yd+, then the ability they deliver at that distance is all I really need at bow distance, No?
I guess you also believe that choosing to hunt at bow distance is also a "handicap"?,...me ill just call it all a chosen dicipline that needs to please none other than myself.
Why not relax and have a bit of forum fun?

Kimber 84M Classic in 338 Federal with a 1.75-6 Leupold with 210 gr. Barnes Tipped TSX.

Skinner, I do like idea of a bolt rifle, simply cause I prefer good triggers.
I began thinking 6.5Grendel(120tsx-125np) ..or.. .250sav120np... kind of thing, even necking those up some to .284-.308cal. with 120-130gn monometals.
The basic idea is to:
1/ use as little powder as possible,
2/keep bullet weight to a minimum,
3/ get as much effective diameter as possible,
4/whilst getting all the necessary penetration.

for eg: If I could get the necessary penetration from .308/6.5grendel(125tsx) then I would prefer that over 6.5grendel(125np) if you know what I mean.
at the same time, if a std. 6.5grendel can be relied apon to do the job well, then that would be mostly fine also.
The rifle would have a secondary purpose( smaller game at somewhat longer distances),But the primary consideration, is for Elk at bow type shots/distance.
For all I know, a 6.5mm 100-110gn monometal might well be enough, and who knows, maybe even the .30cal 110gnTsx...??
There was a 6.5mm 95gnGScHV banded monometal launched from a Grendel that penetrated 24" into water filled foam. impact vel. 1900fps with a beautiful 3 petal mushroom....but how that correlates to penetration in Elk im not exactly sure.
I do know that 6.5x55 110gnGScHV 3100mv, has dumped African Eland(100metre body shot).

Some basic calcs:
6.5grendel 110gnHV 2600mv...........= 2515/1545 (40yd)...2300/1300 (150yd)
7mm/6.5grendel 120gnHV 2600mv.. = 2510/1680 (40yd)...2290/1390
.308/6.5grendel 130gnHV 2600mv... = 2500/1800 (40yd)...2260/1475

Hogdon 6.5 grendel for Ar15 rifles(50kpsi or less) more possible through a bolt action.

Blue wildebeast taken at 350yds 308win 130hv 3100mv...estimated impact vel-energy 2265/1480

.30cal. 130HV

Trax, I perhaps owe you an apology for coming off so harshly. I didn't take into account the 'forum fun' factor.

It's just that sometimes I have to ask the 'why' question to some of the questions that come through here. Akin to somebody proposing 'I want to sail my little sailboat solo across the Pacific. What's the least amount of water I could carry and survive with?' Or 'What's the least amount of gun I should take knowingly into a firefight?'. I'm of the more-is-better school or at least the max reasonable category.

I'm sure when the time comes you will kill cleanly any elk you shoot at under the conditions you have proposed.

The 260 Remington may be an even better selection

Matt, sure If I was hunting elk purely in a critical survival situation-where much longer shots may have to be taken, Id probably tote an 30-06,7mmMag,300mag. or 338/06, ..other than that, I can afford to seek fun & challenges in the field.
I dont intend to breach the sensible envelope of whats reliably adequate for elk, but simply go about to deliver what we know to be reliable & sufficiently adequate, in a way most efficient/lowest in recoil.
I can push for vel. over accuracy in a very efficient case, cause how good a group does one need for a 30yd shot?..even 4-5"@100yd is ok..

Buliwyf,
260rem is a good round, but from your knowledge, do you see the 6.5,7mm,.3ocal grendel combinations worriedly marginal or inadequate, for 30-40yd broadside on Elk?

Definitely not a Nosler Partition.
My persdonal experiences with them are:
Elk, 1st shot broadside at 60 yards - 30 cal hole in and 30 cal hole out on far side,2nd shot straight into brisket - 30 cal found in heart with absolutely nothing left to mushroom.
Texas Deer, 1st shot almost straight on at 30 yards right front - 30 cal hole in, 30 cal back half of bullet under skin in rear flank, 2nd shot almost straight on at 30 yards left front - 30 cal hole in, 30 cal back half of bullet under skin in rear with absolutely nothing left to mushroom.
I will now only consider Noslers for shots over 150 yards. I can cite other personal cases with Noslers too. They are too soft for hits at close range velocities. Not saying they won't kill, just that the performance at close range is unacceptable.
Nuff said!

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
If you proposed to dicipline yourself to hunt Elk at bow ranges & to take the same body shots as you would by bow, but wanted to do it with a Rifle that has:
- minimum possible recoil
- sufficient effective penetration & wound channel

which case/bore/bullet would you decide on?

Remember, Im talking bow range, I dont want to down load a bigger than necessary cartridge and I dont want a cartridge for longer ranges "just in case",....I simply want the cartridge that has enough punch at its more normal loadings to efficiently do the job.
-Cheers.

6mm BR

Tebsinar,

Your experiences are interesting. What caliber and bullet weights are you shooting? I have had very good luck with them and suspect that differences in velocity may have much to do with this.

Don

I guess I don't see the point in this exercise. Are elk that easy to come by anywhere that you only shoot them at bow range? I must be doing something wrong since most of the time I don't even see any, let alone ones in bow range.

there isn't an elk on the mountain that i wouldn't take on with a .243 AT bow shot distance = 50 yds.
the first 7 elk i ever killed were with the same caliber and basically the same setup, in the dark timber,wind in your face,maybe smell them first and close in.
the longest distance was probably closer to 90 yds and i did kill some with head and neck shots but better than half were taken by a 16 yr old kid that didn't know you can't kill elk with a 243.
and i guess some one should of told the elk they didn't HAVE to die from the .243 either.

30-40 krag, 220 hornady round nose.

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
i guess some one should of told the elk they didn't HAVE to die from the .243 either.

If you follow the "elk bullet" threads on AR a fellow is supprised on how few elk rounds there realy are.

Based on experience, first a 44 mag with 250gr NP's or 300gr LBT's. This worked fine for me on elk and moose out of a 4&5/8" revolver so I think it would do out of say a 1894 Marlin.

Next, a bit odd, a 7.62x39. Killed two kudu cows with 150gr Sierras. First one at real bow range as you stated worked fine, at longer range not so much...bullet didn't expand, I know, strange for a Sierra. Presently I use 123gr Hornadys and they worked very well this last fall on whitetail does at ranges up to 200 yds. Now, this is out of a CZ 527 bolt gun and the velocities were: 2450fps for the 123gr and an even 2200fps for the 150gr. I tried some 170gr NP that are 308 dia at the range and the accuracy was a bit sad but, and this is a big but, it would be fine at under 50 yards and the the velocity was right at 2000fps. What I said here is that a 30-30 will do. This all comes under the giant caveat: Shot placement must be good, no shoulders.

HunterMontana,
info on 7.62x39-Kudu results is helpful.
you may be interested to know,the GS custom130hv bullet will properly expand from 1600fps upward.