I have been getting used to a Merkel 12 with a 7x57R rifle barrel and am really enjoying it. However its obvious that for it to be the perfct 'every day' gun I need a smaller calibre rifle barrel.
For me with only a relatively small area of land to shoot and with quarry mainly on the wing but with the odd rabbit and fox it seems that the perfect 'walking around' gun would be a 12 with a 22-250 or .222/.223 underneath. I just cant seem to be able to find one.

So what would be the perfect combo.

Grant

The 222 might be a possibility but 223 or 22-250 would be very rare and would probably have been a special order. Another cartridge would be the 22 Savage Hi Power (5.6 x 52R). This cartridge has limited loadings (usually 70 grain..S and B, Norma, RWS) but there are some other bullets available for hand loading. Another possibility is the Sauer Model 54 which is most common in 16 gauge with either 7 x 57R, 7 x 65R, or 8 x 57JRS but sometimes you will find them in the smaller calibers. I hunt with a Hubertus Drilling in 20 gauge over 5.6 x 52R and over pointing dogs its a good combination for small game and the occasional fox/coyote.
The 5.6 x 52R is pretty much the same as the 223 just not quite as flat shooting.

I do know where your coming from and I did just that, I have a Ferlach 16 ga/ .222 bbf.

The good news for you is that it should'nt be much trouble getting an einstucklauf shipped in from Germany. Take your pick .22 hornet or rimfire, .222, .223 I belive the savage high power takes a .227 dia bullet and that might be hard to get for you if your a hand loader or if not I don't know how availble loaded ammo would be in UK.
Some British guns were chambered for the .22 high power even some W.R. double rifles so you may be able to get it if you want a realy high vel .22 or you want a rimmed cartridge.

Using the combo gun you now have, you could load 130 to 150gr bullets with SR 4756.

Start with 18gr for @1600fps.
Max load 22gr for @1900fps.

quote:

Using the combo gun you now have, you could load 130 to 150gr bullets with SR 4756.

I had thoght of that also I guess I should have mentioned that. I shot several foxes with my 7x64 without doing too much damage and that was with full house loads.

A match or fmj from the 7x57 barrel especially with a light load mention by N E 450 #2 will work wll.

If you're not a hand loader then Norma produces light loaded fmj's called Jagedmatch. I shoot these from one of my drillings and they do very little damage. I have a black grouse mounted in my trophy room that I shot with a 30-06 and jagdmatch.

You might check with Joe at the Drilling Hotline. They have chamber inserts for 22LR that would give a nice alternative. I have a set that I use in my Chapuis that are good enough for squirrels at 25 yards. I've found they work better with standard velocity loads than with high speed loads.
Bfly

I should have mentioned, I was referring to the Lothar Walther inserts.
Sorry for that ommission.
Bfly

Good luck on getting a centerfire barrel insert out of Germany. The Germans consider that barrel a firearm and regulate it as such.

quote:

Originally posted by howa243:
I have been getting used to a Merkel 12 with a 7x57R rifle barrel and am really enjoying it. However its obvious that for it to be the perfct 'every day' gun I need a smaller calibre rifle barrel.
For me with only a relatively small area of land to shoot and with quarry mainly on the wing but with the odd rabbit and fox it seems that the perfect 'walking around' gun would be a 12 with a 22-250 or .222/.223 underneath. I just cant seem to be able to find one.

So what would be the perfect combo.

Grant

I think of a 12 gauge as a little big, prefer 20. The Krieghoff Ultra 20 sounded right to me, a 243/20 gauge.
Not having won any lotteries lately, I settled for a 6x45mm/20 gauge and it's been all right.

.338 over 20g....?

Perfect Drilling, well, can be different based on what one has in mind and how one hunts.

To me, it's called a Bockdrilling, and in caliber 20ga mag over a 30-06 with a hornet on the side Not too many made anymore, believe Krieghoff still makes one, or find a used Blaser BD880.

Other option like said is the Einstecklauf, or barrel insert, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

Dom,

I think youi are right, the bockdrilling is the perfect rifle. The drilling with a "Einstecklauf"
we call the "Poormen's bockdrilling".

A vierling is the premium level for combos but very rare and expensive.

http://www.frankonia.de/199270...articleNumber=719094

I like my 6X Nickel Supra scoped 12/12/30-06 Sauer with a Kreighoff 22 Mag insert for about anything in North America. A 22 hornet insert would make it even better.

I had a 1.5-6X Zeiss scoped Sauer 16/16/8X57JRS with a hornet insert and 22 LR insert that was about perfect, so I sold it.

Yes Burkhardt, a Vierling is nice, I don't have any, my pockets are not that deep

There is a used Blaser BD880 on egun, not a bad price, it's in 16ga over 30-06 with the Hornet
EGUN

Well I have tracked down a couple of likely candidates. A 12 over .243 and a 12 over .222 (thanks to Patrick for this one). Both are made by BRNO and have not seen too much use (so I am told).

All I have to do now is make a decision and smile sweetly at the local firearms licencing department.

Sounds like a plan.
Hopefully your locals aren't too much of a PITA...

Don't count out the 5.6 x 52R (22 Savage Hi Power) ... shoots 70 grain with an MV of about 2800. Cheap ammo from S and B. I have this caliber in a small game drilling with 20/70 barrels. Great for birds to coyote.

You might want to consider this alternative: Krieghoff once made a combination gun with interchangeable rifle barrels. I have such a gun in caliber 12 ga./.30-'06/.222 Remington
on consignment at http://www.drillinghotline.com/new.shtml

I took its predecessor to Africa, where I shot game up to impala size with the .222 barrel and up to wildebeest size with the .30-'06.

It is an unconventional looking outfit, but its utility is undisputed.

Well its only taken since may but I have eventually found a 12 over .222. I am in the process of applying for a variation and am hopeful it becomes my go to truck gun.

Its a BRNO 502. I could have purchased a set of barrels for my Finn Clasic but decided that this was a better route.

how about this one, a "new to me" Heym combo 16ga over .222, less than 6 bls w/o the claw mounted scope. I'm having it restored and the triggers adjusted, then it will be my primary walking around gun.

This is one I picked up when I lived in Germany and is my favorite 2 barrel combo...needed some work but it was worth it. Its a Krieghoff..16/70 over 7x65R. Its has an alloy action and only weighs 7lb 6oz with scope. Shoots MOA with handloaded Hornady 139gr SST.

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:
This is one I picked up when I lived in Germany and is my favorite 2 barrel combo...needed some work but it was worth it. Its a Krieghoff..16/70 over 7x65R. Its has an alloy action and only weighs 7lb 6oz with scope. Shoots MOA with handloaded Hornady 139gr SST.

Nice gun, 16-gauge is a nice round, and 7x65 has decent ballistics. Do you shoot 140-ish grain bullets or something bigger?

Have been lurking for a long while, but first posting on this forum - I know Howa243 through Stalking Directory.

JonP - I too am using a 16 bore over 7x65R with the 139g Hornaby SST over 51.5g of IMR4831. What powder do you use - what works, what doesn't?? Mine is an aluminium actioned one by Joseph Hambrusch in Ferlach that was retailed by Heinrich Munch in Aarchen, with a 6x42 Zeiss scope - love it and accurate if I do my bit.

I picked up a Bernadelli combo 12ga over 5.6x50R Mag that is working out very well for me.

375,
I have the same Benardelli--What have you determined to be the best load??? I using 4320 and Barnes 53 coppers getting an average of 1-1/1/2---shotgun slugs are about 2 high and 4 left at 80 yds. Really like mine--has a bobcat and a hog to it's credit so far. Would be substantially bigger bag but have been unable to get out much this year.

I'm using 52gr Speer FB HP over 4064 for coyotes and a 35gr FB HP over a light load of 800x for finisher rounds and small game. For shot shells 1 3/8 oz Bismuth BB's for close in coyotes and #5 Tungsten Matrix for birds, Pheasants and ducks on the way back from coyote stands.

375Win

I have a Wichester 101 12 gauge/.30-06 with Burris 1.5-6 scope and find it works well. Handloading the .30-06 gives enough variety to do everything I need (to a point) including plains game in Africa. The 12 gauge has a set of chokes which adds to the versatility. As to vthe 12 gauge being a bit "heavy"...there are a variety of light loads available to include 2.5" European light loads.

Eagle One
NRA Benefactor Member
SCI Life Member
SASS Life Member
DRSS (450 NE, .375 H&H, .45-70)

I have a few Valmet 412's, and combo bbls in,

12-.222 Rem.
12-.223
12-5.6x52R
12-.243 Win.
12-30-06
12-.338RDS
12-9.3x74R
12-375H&H
12-444 Marlin

I probably forgot a few, but no matter as 99.9% of the time i have my Krieghoff drilling in my hands... It just plain works for everything i hunt.

DM

The only real downside of Combo's is they risk making all your other firearms redundant!

Hi HeymSR20, its good to see you here. I have had the chance to put a few rounds through my BRNO now and I must admit to being very impressed. Its a solidly made piece of equipment and with 20" barrels its very handy. My only problem at the minute is that its not had any use and its very stiff to open so follow up shots are not on the agenda. The other thing that is notable is the choke on the shotgun barrel. It is so tight that when I shot a squirrel it blasted it out of the tree and was badly mangled when located. On that experience I am goingto have to go shoot a few clays if I am going to be hit anything on the wing.

Howa, It sounds like it might be a candidate for screw in choke tubes.

Greg

Howa243 - glad it's working out. Re tightness- some use and a bit of oil will sort that. Re tight choke - just shoot them a bit further away!

Hi G,

Hope it goes well now.

I had a BRNO combi (502) and those vestigal iron sights let me group to about 2" at 100. That pleased me! With a scope, it shot MOA.

The choking was tight, but I had quite some success on clays - they make for good instinctive shooters. If all else fails, talk to me about spreader wads. They have made my Sauer a very useable piece indeed.

Best

Ian

Never had a shotgun with such tight chokes. Took me back to start off with, but am ok with it.
Like your suggestion Heym, sounds a bit more sporting too. .
The sights are so much better than those on the Merkel and certainly seem up to the job.
I bought it as a truck gun and so far its living up to my expectations. The short barrel certainly makes it handy its, not such good quality that I mind it getting a few knocks and it seems accurate enough for short range.
As Heym says, these combos could lead to a smaller cabinet being required.

Good to chat to you all. Hope things are well.

Grant

Hi G,

I know exactly what you mean, I've picked up a couple of bit's shooting ( Instructions were to thin everything! ) where the quarry literally varies from Canada goose to roe to fox to pigeon and everything in-between.

I've been in touch with some German friends, you might want to pm Gerry from the euro forum thinking about it, and I am now semi-seriously thinking of finding a 16 or 20 bore drilling with about any reasonable deer legal calibre in the rifle barrel and getting a .22 insert tube for one of the shotgun barrels.

It might be a trifle heavy for a single barrel shotgun, a little compromised as a deer rifle and a little limited as a rimfire but it would rock ruddy bells in my opinion and be perfect for Ian above puts with such wonderful understatement as taking a rifle (and now gun) for a walk.

To be honest handling Ian's Sauer so early in my formative years may have had a lot to do with this as well...

Hi Ghubert

I cannot shoot side by sides for love nor money, so a drilling was out for me. The simple over and under configuration of the combination was ideal having shot and over and under for 40 years. Its true that it does not cover all eventualities but it does most. My view would be to find a gun that does most (if not all) of what you want but crucially, one that you can shoot. I have never shot a drilling but I would need to be convinced that I could use it effectively as a shotgun.

So far my experience has been good, but there is no doubt that for use on vermin the iron sights are a big limitation. This would mean a scope and a method of carrying it. Being essentially lazy I am reconcilled to the fact that the more complicated the thought process are in order to do something, the less likeley I am to do them. So far every night I have gone out on the farm, the combo has gone with me.

If you are after a low-profile sighting system - have you considered the 'holo'style red-dot sights.

Here is a mounting system that would be fast / simple & effective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...laD4&feature=related

Rgds

Ian

Thats excellent Ian thanks. I have been looking at these and wondering how I might get them on the rib.

Thanks

Grant

Grant, thanks for your pm. Does the Brno have a solid or ventilated rib? Or is part of it allready dovetailed?

Basic options are:

1) drill and tap the rib and mount a dovetailed rail ( weaver/ picatinny etc and then simply attach optics to that. Will affect sight line a bit if not using optics. with a light red dot you might just get away with aralditing a base to the rib!

2) look in the reknagel catalogue, they have a rail type system that goes onto a ventilated rib. Would work with a solid rib methunks, but you would need to drill holes through the rib.

3) cut the rib at rightangles to the bore and dovetail in sight bases - as in a claw, swing off base, or dovetail bases. By far the most elegant.

I just sent the money out for a Kreighoff Ultra 20 with a 3" 20GA and a 9.3X74R bottom barrel. I also have an arrangement worked out to buy a 9.3X74R insert barrel from Germany for the 20GA barrel. That will make it a double rifle. The gun comes with a scope and mounts in a nice Americase.