OK, you guys have piqued my interest. I have not shot or owned one of these, yet. If I get one, how hard is it to find additional barrels and to get them installed. If anyone has had it done, what kind of ball park costs are we talking about?
Thanks
Bfly

Barrels are where and when you find them. I sold 14 sets in the last year. I see them on GA from time to time and once in a while on eBay. Most have been fitted to someone's receiver, and all I bought that were fit mine well enough, also. Fitting runs from $50.00 to $100.00...in that range, if it is necessary.

They're hard to beat for a well designed and good quality combo gun. I've killed one cape buffalo with my 12/9,3X74R.

quote:

Originally posted by luv2safari:
They're hard to beat for a well designed and good quality combo gun. I've killed one cape buffalo with my 12/9,3X74R.

Please tell us more...

If it was me looking for a 412, I'd be careful to make sure I bought ONLY a 412-S, not the original 412.

The original 412 had rebounding spring-loaded strikers, and often showed trouble with the fired primers flowing back into the firing pin holes in the standing breech. That made them difficult to open sometimes,...not a desirable situation when hunting with one.

The 412-S, which was announced "state-side" in an issue of he 1984 American Rifleman, did NOT have rebounding strikers. That change was made in part specifically to forestall the primer blow-back problems encountered with the earlier 412.

Other less signifant changes were in the stocking. I much prefered the earlier 412 stocks, but most Americans did seem to prefer the later 412-S style, which was described in the American Rifleman review as slimmer, easier to handle, less bulky. Supposedly the 412-S also no longer had the gold-filled model designation on the side of the action, but I don't know how correct that might be.

In my experience, barrels currently run from about $550 low end, used, to $1,000 top end, new. Apparently the new top end barrels are made on specific order by Lothar Walther....

I paid $500 for a near mint 12/12 w/ the choke tube set last year. That was considerably more than I paid for the whole gun in 12/.30-06 about 20 years ago, but I still considered it a decent deal.

Lothar Walther made my new 9.3 barrel set. Packy

quote:

The original 412 had rebounding spring-loaded strikers, and often showed trouble with the fired primers flowing back into the firing pin holes in the standing breech. That made them difficult to open sometimes,...not a desirable situation when hunting with one.

The "real" problem is, useing loads with too much pressure, as my 412 is a VERY early model and i've NEVER had this problem. Of course, i don't load "bolt action" loads in my Valmets either.

If your getting sticky extraction/opening, then i bet you it's caused from high pressures. Next thing that causes it, is pushing the shoulder back when reloading causeing excesive headspace.

Valmets tend to have max chambers, so do NOT "overwork" the cases. Ajusting the die for your chamber will cure a lof of potential problems.

Like all break open guns, you CANNOT treat a Valmet like it's a bolt action rifle!

DM

quote:

Originally posted by DM:
The "real" problem is, useing loads with too much pressure, as my 412 is a VERY early model and i've NEVER had this problem. Of course, i don't load "bolt action" loads in my Valmets either.

That makes perfect sense, but unfortunately it is not universally correct.

Early Valmets were infamous for sticking closed with even light loads, which is WHY Valmet itself recognized and corrected the problem by changing the strikers.

That does not mean it happens with all all early Valmets...apparently it doesn't in yours.

But it sure as hell does happen in mine, and I use loads which are BELOW the STARTING loads listed for the 9,3x74R. With loads within the normal range for the cartridge, including factory ammo, it jams shut tighter than a tick. And mine is not the only one. Valmet had a raft of complaints about the original 412s.

-----------------------------------

quote:

If your getting sticky extraction/opening, then i bet you it's caused from high pressures. Next thing that causes it, is pushing the shoulder back when reloading causeing excesive headspace.

Valmets tend to have max chambers, so do NOT "overwork" the cases. Ajusting the die for your chamber will cure a lof of potential problems.

Like all break open guns, you CANNOT treat a Valmet like it's a bolt action rifle!

DM

Again, IF that was applicable to all instances, it would make perfect sense. But it isn't.

It is also worth noting that the 9,3x74R is a rimmed cartridge, and headspaces on the rim. Sizing does not change that one way or the other, as you can't increase the headspace by sizing. The rim does not even enter the sizing die....

quote:

That does not mean it happens with all all early Valmets...apparently it doesn't in yours.

I was a Valmet distrubutor for the entire state of Alaska, and i never got even "one" gun back or even one complaint about this, so it was NOT a common problem.. I was 21st in the whole U.S. for total sales the one year "they" kept track... That's a lot of guns.

quote:

It is also worth noting that the 9,3x74R is a rimmed cartridge, and headspaces on the rim. Sizing does not change that one way or the other, as you can't increase the headspace by sizing. The rim does not even enter the sizing die....

Yes and NO! Yes it headspaces on the rim, but when the cartridges fires, the case fills the chamber... At "that" point the case SHOULD be headspaceing on the shoulder and you SHOULD be resizeing the case so it headspaces on the shoulder NOT the rim.

The NO part comes in because, "if" you push the shoulder back and allow the case to headspace on the rim every time, the primer backs out a tiny amount BEFORE the case fills the chamber. This backing out is what causes the flow of the primer into the fireing pin hole... The second cause is high pressures.

Keep in mind, the tolerances are fairly large in the rim part of the chamber to allow all brands of ammo to work, from old to new...

I sold a LOT of Valmets, and if it was as common as you seem to think, i would have had some back in for repairs, and i didn't...

I even did some minor design changes for Valmet, and not once was this problem brought to my attention.

BTW, have you noticed how often guys on the net say there 9.3x74R cases are stretching too much???? This is mostly caused because they have their resizeing die ajusted improperly.

DM

DM I have a 9.3x74R. So far I have not had a problem with case stretching (as far as I know, they still chamber). So, how should I be adjusting my sizing die? I just set it up as I always do, taking all the play out of the press lever.
On a separate topic how do I adjust the barrels? I have a load with Speer 270's that shoot a nice 4 shot group at 100 with no adjsutments. With PRVI 285's I have a load that shoots two pairs of holes about 3 inches apart (high/low). So which way do I move the adjustment (should I chose to do so, and I am still torn).
Peter
Peter.

quote:

DM I have a 9.3x74R. So far I have not had a problem with case stretching (as far as I know, they still chamber). So, how should I be adjusting my sizing die? I just set it up as I always do, taking all the play out of the press lever.
On a separate topic how do I adjust the barrels? I have a load with Speer 270's that shoot a nice 4 shot group at 100 with no adjsutments. With PRVI 285's I have a load that shoots two pairs of holes about 3 inches apart (high/low). So which way do I move the adjustment (should I chose to do so, and I am still torn).
Peter

You want to ajust your sizeing die so you are sizeing the case so the die "just touches" the shoulder of the case. Take a magic marker and blacken the neck and a bit of the shoulder of the case. Now resize the case and see how much of the case your sizeing. You should beable to see that, by the amount of the marker that has been removed.

Ideally, you want to size the whole neck and still have the action close on the case with a LIGHT crush fit. Ajust the die in or out 1/4 turn untill you get this.

Once you fire a case a few times it has more "spring back" so i seperate those cases and use them for practise only. Then if the gun closes a bit hard on them, it really doesn't matter...

Ajusting bbls... This is VERY easy to do but not easy to tell how to do. Experience goes a loooooooong way here... When i was doing this all the time, i could generally dial a bbl. set in with about 10 rounds fired.

Here's a couple tips that will help. Put up two targets one over the other. ALWAYS shoot at the top target with the top bbl, and ALWAYS shoot the bottom target with the bottom bbl.. This saves a LOT of confusion!

I prefer Redfield targets but any target that has the 1" squares on it, is fine. You want the squares so you can "easily" see where the TOP bbl. is hitting on the "top" target compared to where the BOTTOM bbl. is hitting on the "bottom" target.

Write TOP on the top target ect... Always walk out and number each shot. You want to be able to see what your doing and the targets will be handy to have later on as a confidence builder. Write the load data ect. on them and some notes about how you felt you did, then keep them.

Ajust the bbls so the shots are in the same location on it's OWN TARGET in relation to the bullseye! You can always ajust the scope/sights to get it in the B-eye later. SO, you want the "top" bbl. to place it's bullets on the top target, in the same place as the "bottom" bbl. is placeing it's bullets on the bottom target!

When ajusting the bbls, use a PROPER fitting screwdriver and "don't" over tighten the screws!

Sit down and stand the gun with the bbls straight up inbetween your legs. At that point, moveing the mid bbl. band "UP" will make the bottom bbl. shoot "higher"..... Move it down, and the bottom bbl. will go "lower" or away from the group... You only need to move it a fraction of an inch at a time, and when your close, just loosening the screw and tightening it again can change the POI...

As for the muzzle ajustment, look at where the marks are on the end of the bbl... This will allow you to see what your doing, loosen one side 1/2 turn and tighten the other side 1/2 turn!!! Watch your targets and see what's happening!!

Always fire it in order, bottom bbl. then top bbl..!! Go slow, and let the bbls. cool after every two shots, one bottom and one top, just like you would do when hunting.

That should get you going on the right track... Maybe someone else has a better way of doing it and will chime in??? The above is just what has worked for me.

BTW, sometimes i put my targets at 25 yards to start with, as if the bbls are waaaaaaay off, this will get them on target faster..

DM

Hey Thanks DM. Very useful. I am not sure what is happening on the sizing. It is very easy on my Rockchucker ie. takes very little effort and the loaded rounds chamber very easily. The tip about shooting on separate targets is a good one as well. As mentioned I am about 3 inches apart at 100 yards, so, as long as I am on the paper at that range I will stick to it. I need to raise the POI on the lower barrel.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by DM:

quote:

It is also worth noting that the 9,3x74R is a rimmed cartridge, and headspaces on the rim. Sizing does not change that one way or the other, as you can't increase the headspace by sizing. The rim does not even enter the sizing die....

Yes and NO! Yes it headspaces on the rim, but when the cartridges fires, the case fills the chamber... At "that" point the case SHOULD be headspaceing on the shoulder and you SHOULD be resizeing the case so it headspaces on the shoulder NOT the rim.

I'm sorry, but that has no application to firing factory ammo in the gun, and it happens with both factory ammo and handloads. I NEVER push the shoulder back on any cartridge unless it is required for easy chambering/closing.
And, as mentioned in my earlier posts, the only loads which don't freeze MY Valmet (which I bought new and unabused) are those a grain or two BELOW the starting loads listed by both American and European loading manuals.

quote:

The NO part comes in because, "if" you push the shoulder back and allow the case to headspace on the rim every time, the primer backs out a tiny amount BEFORE the case fills the chamber. This backing out is what causes the flow of the primer into the firing pin hole... The second cause is high pressures.

Keep in mind, the tolerances are fairly large in the rim part of the chamber to allow all brands of ammo to work, from old to new...

And if they are headspaced so loosely that factory ammo causes the problem, then there may be even more reason to get the later version which leaves the firing pins blocking the firing pin holes until the action is opened?

quote:

I sold a LOT of Valmets, and if it was as common as you seem to think, i would have had some back in for repairs, and i didn't....

I even did some minor design changes for Valmet, and not once was this problem brought to my attention.....

Well, I won't try to second guess your sales or the complaints you have not received.

If you would like to go review the report on the then-new "S" version in 1984 by the American Rifleman, you will find the flowing of primers into the firing pin holes in the older 412s IS listed as the problem with them which resulted in the redesign of the action as I have mentioned. I would give you the precise issue, but I don't have the time to go looking for it during tax season. I don't know if the NRA has a "morque" that is on-line accessible, but if they do, it might be possible just to do a search for the article.

I do know that this problem occurs with all my barrel sets except the shotgun barrels, in 4 different chamberings, so it is also not just peculiar to my 9.3 barrels or the loads fired in them. And, in my rifle, it is NOT due to pushing the shoulders back or using excessive pressures...neither one!

I have used a 412 30-06/12 for the past 4 years. No problems like the one listed. No pressure issues and excellent accuracy with flawless operation!! Great guns...The pre 412 had some obvious exterior diffences.

Luv2safari what is the story on the buff kill? What is the barrel length? TIA Packrattusnongratus

I had booked a hunt in Masailand at Longido for a friend. It was an abreviated hunt for the 21 day PG at a reduced rate from the usual 21 day full bag hunt rates. He asked me along as an observer, and I got a good rate from the PH in lieu of commission. There were several buffalo on the license and quota.

My friend had "Hopp's Flue" the whole hunt; I didn't realize he drank so much. I took my DT Tikka 512 in 12ga 3" and 9,3X74R along to help a bit with the PG and shoot francolin and guinea, and I always take some 286gr Woodleigh softs and solids with me. It is scoped with a VariX III 2.5X8 on a Valmet mount. Larry didn't emerge from his tent more than several mornings and said to shoot whatever I wanted on his license...not a problem with the game scout after only minor negotiation ($$$). We were looking for lesser kudu and fringe eared oryx in the area in general. Larry did get his gerenuk earlier on. I would take anything good we saw.

After a morning hunt that had us in lesser, and a good one taken, we went after some francolin; I and the PH. What we found was an excellent lone D'agga boy about 20 yards from the small water hole we had just walked to, looking for birds. I loaded the 9,3 with a 286 solid and asked...Well? and was told that Larry would never get one from his cot, so go ahead. I had a perfect frontal quartering shot across the left front leg and to the heart and took it. The buffalo turned 180 and hopped off into thick bush, not giving the PH a follow up shot immediately. The buffalo was hit hard in the right place and went down about 120 yards out; I had put another solid in and hit a right side raking shot when he cleared the bush, just before he went down and bellowed. I used up one more round in the back of the neck of the dead buffalo. Larry had a very big bossed 41" Masailand buffalo.

I had taken a 38" buffalo two years earlier with a Merkel drilling in 12 and 9,3X74R as my second one on a 7 day license at Lokisale. Both times I felt a bit foolish having only 1 1/4oz loads of #6 shot as follow up.

The 9,3X74R killed them just as dead as the 416 Rigby I had used for my two others. It did feel like I was pushing the envelop some, however.

I had intended to use my new Chapuis 9,3X74R UGEX this September, but it is on its way back to France for a new butt stock and a set of shotgun barrels. I'll use the new 375 Ruger instead.

Great story and thanks a lot. Good stuff for duffers who will never be there. Packy

Packy,

You can get there. I'm not wealthy by any stretch. I do all this on guile, temerity and credit cards. When I get them all paid off, the cycle starts again.

I have a 412 with o/u 06 barrels a set of 20 ga and 12 ga barrels. I manly use it as a 12 ga o/u It has convinced me that muti barreled guns are a waste of time. I would much rather have 3 guns instead of one with 3 barrels.

I would guess that it might be a good idea in a country where one is limited in the number of guns one can buy. But other then that I do not see much use.

Well P dog obviously you need to sell me the 06 & the 20 ga barrels then, since you don't use, I'll put them to good use .... cheap of course!

Send me the 12 ga barrels and action and you will then be rid of the whole mess! I will pay the freight. Packy

I bought a 412 12/223 in 1984 to morph into a turkey killing machine, I sent it to mark Bansner to have the forcing cone removed and a turkey predator .636 choke put in it, had reinhart fajen build me a high comb monte carlo trap stock in woodland camo laminate, mounted a leupold 2.5x8 in a set of modified ruger #1 rings. cant begin to count all the turkeys I've taken home with that combo, taken a few at unbelievable ranges for #6 shot.
Yes it breaks down hard when you fire the rifle, if you shoot right you only shoot once.
RR

Hammer'em we might beable to work something out. I don't think the 06 or the 20 ga barrels have more then a couple of boxs of ammo thru them. PM me with what you think you would want to pay 24 inch 06 barrels 26 in IC Mod 20 ga.

pdog you have a pm!

Anyone have a double trigger they would like to sell? 412 Valmet ? Thanks

Still don't own one yet, but have done a lot of reading after this post started. I have seen several with an apparent insert or side rib between the barrels. I have not seen this on many guns, and have not seen it listed in any of the options listed in the few old ads that I have found. Was this something done by a gunsmith to dress them up, or was it a factory option? Thanks
Bfly

Fly...

These are the new FinnClassic DR barrels with a soft plastic insert between the barrels. I just bought a new set of 9,3X74R barrels from Russ Gould, and they are that way. I made a mistake and sold my original 9,3 barrels to Jerry Meyers, then regretted it. I DO like these new Walther barrels, however. The rear sight is a bit better than the original folding sight, but the front is still an abomonation. I am using them on my DT 512S Tikka frame for the most part, but have shot them on my 412S Valmet receiver, also. They shoot like a good bolt gun...MOA!...with a 2.5X8 VariX III in Valmet mount.

Anyone wish to sell a used scope base yet? I need one for a dot sight or shotgun scope on my 12/12 barrel set. Thanks Packy.

Packy,

They don't use separate bases. The base is the integral with the barrel set. You can buy Warne made Tikka rings from various on line suppliers in 1" and 30mm, however. I have a new set of Warnes for sale...1"

luv2safari, I don't understand? I bought a base that clamps on the rifle barrel. I want another to mount a different scope on a shotgun barrel. Tikka rings will fit the dovetail on my barrels? Makes me wonder why I paid $199 for the QD base and rings in the first place? My mistake? How are the Tikka style rings catalogued? I need to research them. Thanks. Packrattusnongratus

Another point of interest. My QD base has rings with inserts. With the inserts 1" scope fits and 26 MM fits without the black plastic inserts! Makes it easy to use my old 26mm Kahles. I love the 2.5 power glass with a post/crosshair reticle. This Valmet is fun for a guy with gadgetitis. Packy

Packy,

I think we are talking in different terms. The dove-tail base is already on the Valmet/Tikka barrels, and they make a complete mount for the dove-tail. You refer to the mount system base and rings, and I can see that logic.

I've yet to try the Warne mount rings on the Valmet barrel dove-tail base. I did blunder into a very good set of cheap older TASCO World Class rings for a Tikka that work perfectly...all steel...repeatable...for a whopping $25.00, shipped. The guy had 9 sets when I ordered mine to try, but he sold out by the time mine arrived for testing. I would have bought all he had; they WORK!

I'm interested in the rings for the barrel dovetail like the Warne. I just have to figure out which one to order from Midway. Thanks. Packy

ruger #1 rings will work with just a bit of machining, I used a file and a drill press to modify mine, and I've shot more than a few 3.5" mags through mine, and low ones set the scope much lower than the bases do for a good cheek weld.
RR

What alterations were necessary to the #1 rings? Packy

one of the little nubs, for lack of a better word, on the bottom of the front ring must come off, and since its a tapered base, one side where the pin goes through must be drilled deeper so the ring can clamp onto the narrower end of the rib, this is with a standard 412, a buddy had a 412S and he didn't hafta drill the one side for his.
RR

412,412S, Tikka 512, and others all are the same on top of the barrels. I looked at the Ruger #1 rings, also, and saw possibilities. I was given a set of new SS Ruger rings and may just butcher them a bit.

The Tasco set I used was an old World Class set for Desert Eagle and Tikka, so the box said. The new Warne Tikka don't come close, however.