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Anyone have experience with these in either the combination or double rifle configurations? What has your experience been? Dave One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | ||
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A good friend of mine had one with 12x12 ga bbls and 12 x 30-06 or 308 I cannot remember for sure [RJM which was it?]. The gun seemed to shoot pretty good. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I have a Finnish-made Valmet 412 in 12/223. Never done much work with it. The 223 tube shoots a variety of commercial ammo reasonably well at 100 yards but extraction is an on again off again thing. I'm not a shotgunner but it shoots Brennekes into three or four inches at 50 yards but the point of impact is low with the fixed irons. An serious guncrank might make it a better general purpose gun by rechambering it to 220 Swift and having choke tubes installed but I'd have to start playing Lotto to fund that project. A buddy of mine had the Italian-made Tikka with a variety of shotgun, combination, and rifle tubes but he eventually traded it off. To my eye it was a more attractive gun. Years ago I corresponded with a fellow in the UK who said his 412 in 12/243 was only happy with light bullets. That's all I got... Good hunting! | |||
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The son of one of the guys in my deerstalking club uses one of the 412s as his walking around gun for small game, in 12g/222 Rem. Seems to work O.K, with the occasional extraction problem with reloads. If I could, I would always go with rimmed cartridges for combo guns, due to the sometimes 'iffy' extraction of rimless cases. The sole exception being the CZ 584 series, where you just about need pliers to get the case off the rimless extractor. Cheers, Dave. Non Illegitium Carborundum Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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My first combo gun was a Valmet, purchased in 1974 and I sold it. It was a .308/12 ga. and was a pretty mediocre gun. My second was/is a Miroku/Browning Mod. 7500, also a .308/12 ga. and it is just about the finest gun I own in real functional terms. It is the ONLY gun of this type that I think has a good extraction system for the rimless cases and handles warmish handloads perfectly. I also have a Merkel drilling, a Mannlicher-Schoenauer, several classic Brnos, a Dakota 76 and had a mint British sxs by William Powell & Sons. plus a number of other fairly well-regarded guns. So, I base my opinion of the Miroku/Browning on considerable hands-on experience and strongly recommend grabbing one of these if you find one. I wouldn't own a postwar Brno combo or another Valmet/Tikka. | |||
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Thanks for the replies. From the one that I handled, that was sort of my impression, but I have the opportunity to pick up a 12-gauge over .308 with scope for around $800.00. I am concerned about extraction with the .308, and would rather spend more and have a reliable gun. I guess that I will start looking for an older German gun in one of the rimmed rounds. Dave One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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Probably a good plan, although if you have the cash, I can recommend the Blaser 95BBF. Mine is in 7x57R/12g. Works fine (so far), and is very (sub MOA) accurate. But they are not cheap by any means, just the least expensive of the good combos on the market at the moment. Always try to stick with the rimmed rounds for this type of gun, unless you want a CZ 584, in which case, make sure you have pliers handy. Cheers, Dave. Non Illegitium Carborundum. Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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loud-n-boomer I have a Tikka 512 SD in 9.3x74R double rifle, plus shotgun barrels. I have only started to use it so can't comment a lot. Still getting the barrels regulated in fact. But each barrel is doing a 1 inch (or less) 2 shot group at 50 metres. When I get them to converge it should be quite accurate. I plan on taking it in about 12 days to hunt water buffalo cows, plus my .450. Hoping for a minimum of ten cows for practice, maybe more. I am purchasing a .30-06 double barrel set for it as well. I MAY have these reamed to .30 Super but may not. I am also purchasing a 12g/.223 barrel set as well. I haven't ever heard any bad comments about the Valmet/Tikkas, other than they aren't side by side  .Will tell more when I get back from the cull. | |||
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NitroX: I am looking forward to your comments, as I am looking at a 12x.308 combo, but would also want a set of 9.3x74 barrels and 12-gauge barrels. Dave One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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I really like my 412S. The 12 gauge shotgun barrels shoot very well in the field and on the occasional trap range. When Valmet had an office in NY I bought a set of 9.3x74R barrels and had them fitted. These too shoot very well. I really like the gun and wouldn't trade it. A friend of mine also has a 412S with every conceivable set of barrels available. He uses it often and changes the barrel configuration as needed. I believe the price is way up there for this gun now, but it's still a viable answer to an inexpensive O/U shotgun, O/U rifle and combo of both. No good deed goes unpunished. | |||
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I knew this thread was somewhere but couldn't remember where! The Tikka 9.3x74R double worked very well. I didn't take the .450 at all. I used a load of 286 gr Woodleigh Weldcore Protected Points and FMJs at about 2170 fps. Not fast but very accurate. The rifle wears a 1-4x Leupold in Tikka mounts. The load feels like I am shooting a .303. I used the wedge between the barrels to regulate the barrels for this load. Approximately 30 mm high at 100 metres. When i shot well each barrel shot a 2 shot group touching, maybe 40 mm apart. Actual use: I shot 12 water buffalo cows and 2 buffalo bulls plus a few calves which were at the foot of the cows. I brain shot one cow and attempted a second with the top barrel. Missed the brain and lost the cow, never found it again. Last brain shot I tried but it is fully capable. Had I been less cocky and not tried with the second barrel immediately after the first I could have immediately killed the cow with the second barrel. All the other cows were body shot, lungs and heart. One of these got away and also could not be found but would have died fairly quickly. All the other beast died quickly and well. As I often shot 3 cows in a group I shot one and then another with each barrel. Reloading to hit each again, also moving onto the third. This worked several times and was quite efficient. A bolt action .375 with a good magazine would have worked better but the point was to use the Tikka. The bulls died as the guide said they were cows and to kill them - along say with 2 or 3 others. So I did. Turned out to be bulls.  Distances for the buffalo was from 20 yards to maybe 150 yards. Also shot three pigs. One shot each. Two on the run, close and extremely quick shooting. Two brumbies (horses) at about 120 metres. One dropped from one shot, the other required a quick reload and a second barrel. It was at full gallop and maybe 50 metres further out by then. These were very beautiful horses BTW. One donkey. Donkeys are tough and just don't die quickly. But a good hit with the first bullet to the chest and it wasn't going anywhere. The best was a huge scrub bull shot at about 170 metres. A good hit to the chest (heart/lungs) but maybe a little low. Two or three more good hits to make sure it stayed put. This bulls horns were simply fantastic and make my previous ones from August look tiny. A bit of blood letting. 21 big game or medium game animals in two days. I am very happy with the Tikka 9.3mm and will try it on paper out to 300 metres to see how it performs. Then take it sometime on a deer hunt. The ejectors also worked well and allowed quicker reloading than extractors. I think a set of .30 Super barrels would also be very nice. As would the 12g / .223 barrel set. On the shotgun barrels used them at a once a year combined trap / skeet / sporting shoot we have locally and shot the best with them I ever have before. Usually I use one of my side-by-sides. Photos for the cull will be posted later. PHOTOS HERE . | |||
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I have an early Valmet 412 with the following barrel sets: -.308/.308 - .30-06/.30-06 -.223/12 gauge -.12gauge/12gauge -7x65-R/7x65-R -9.3x74-R/9.3x74-R All rifle sets perform well from an accuracy standpoint. All will put centers of groups from each barrel within one inch or less of each other at 100 yards, when adjusted using the two integral "regulating" wedges found in each set. One wedge (near the middle of the barrels) is used for setting elevation of the bullet POI, and the other (nearer the muzzles)for setting windage of the bullet strikes. The weak points of this design are the difficulty of opening the action after moderately extended firing sessions, and its frequent failure to retract the firing pins adequately after firing. This gets worse: 1. As the action warms up with the firing of more than just two shots, and 2. With barrels which use rimless cartridges, and 3. As higher pressure loads are used. It gets so bad, that if I fire 10 consecutive rounds with either the .308 or .30-06 barrel sets (5 factory rounds through each of the upper & lower barrels) without setting the gun down to cool between shots, I cannot open the action at all unless I set the rifle aside until it is almost stone cold. Likewise, the firing pins fail to retract reliably. After a few rounds in any shooting session, the pins will be making heavy grooves through the bottom half of the primers and the bottom half of the cartridge case heads, as the action opens with the firing pins dragging across the cartridge heads. When shooting this rifle, I am in almost constant fear of having one or both firing pins break in the worst possible circumstances. It is now to the point where I am considering milling out the face of the standing breech where the firing pin tips pass through, and then fitting bushings for the pins and my own design of firing pin retractors. Without that modification, the gun can still be fun for a few shots, especially with the rimmed rifle cartridge barrels, or the .223/12 gauge in a turkey hunting application, so long as not more than a couple of quick shots are fired. However, you couldn't GIVE me a Valmet/Tikka 412 in ANY cartridge combo, IF THEN I HAD TO USE IT AGAINST DG. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Alberta Canuck, I have seen the firing pins not retract fully as you said, but I have never had a single problem with the function of my gun. My Valmet 412S came with 12 gauge shotgun barrels. Both the receiver and the barrels bear the same serial number. I love this gun at the trap and sporting clays range. I have fired six boxes at a time and never experienced what you have. I bought a set of 9.3X74R barrels. I had them fitted by Valmet when they were around. These barrels also never have given me a moment’s grief. I have noticed marking by the firing pins upon opening the gun, but never a problem. A friend of mine also has as many barrels as you do and has had them also fitted by Valmet and never had a problem. If you took these barrels off the shelf and snapped them together you might be having a head spacing problem, Forcing the gun closed. We are in the process of posting the “Valmet gunsmith’s barrel fitting instructions as well as their owners manual" on the internet. Check back on the “Valmet Barrels†thread from time to time to see when it gets posted. As far as hunting DG with the gun. I don’t think I would do that either. But I would have no reservations about hunting anything else. There are members here that have taken this gun to Africa for a plains game and wing shooting hunt. No good deed goes unpunished. | |||
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My barrels were NOT "taken off the shelf and snapped together". All of them were either originally fitted by Valmet in Finland (as 3 sets of them were) or fitted by their U.S. warranty 'smiths. Some of my barrel sets have been fitted twice (2 sets), first by the factory in Finland, and then by the U.S. warranty station in New England. The latter fittings were in response to my complaint about the gun not opening reliably, so they were trying to fix the exact problem I have been describing. They even completely replaced the .308 barrels in an attempt to fix the problem. Didn't matter. After the new barrels were fitted the problem was, and still is, as bad as ever. My shotgun barrels work okay, sorta. BUT, as I posted, the gun is certainly NOT reliable when using the rimless cartridge rifle barrels, and is definitely not reliable enough for DG use with ANY of the rifle barrels, either flanged or rimless. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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My gun dealer in Corpus Christi has one for sale. It is a double 12g and a double 30.06 with scope and custom case. PM me if you want to contact the dealer. When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults! | |||
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I had a set with 12ga/06 and a set of 28" 20 ga. barrels. That was sold off years ago and was later replaced with a 12 ga./.223. I have since added a set of 30" full choke barrels and a 26" set with choke tubes. The .223 shoots well to say the least. I don't think a group has ever gone over MOA. It has a 1.5-5 Leupold mounted on top. I recently bought another gun but this one has the standard style shotgun stock, silver receiver and 12ga/12ga 24" barrels with tubes...paid $650 for it. Bob | |||
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We sold quite a few sets of these barrels at a store I worked in in the 80's. No problems and everyone was pleased with them .Most were in .308 or 30/06 or combinations with 12 gauge.I saw one group of five from a .308 double that was under 1.25"@100 yds. fired top bottom etc in very fast time .The gentleman used a 6 Burris compact and was a extremely good shot into double guns. I am still wondering why I did not buy one in .308 at cost. I would be interested to see the factory specs on barrel fitting. Glenn | |||
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I also used an older custom stocked Valmet to shoot trap for many years with sucess and no problems.I fired lots of rounds when just two of us shot . Glenn | |||
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Stonewall, They should be posted soon over at Nitroexpress. No good deed goes unpunished. | |||
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Soon. I was away from home for a month. | |||
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Had a similar problem on a Savage 24C i own, no lower BBL firing pin spring would last more the a few shots. After replacing it several times, I finally lost patience with it, and fitted a small foam disk in front of the pin so that the pin would compress the foam to fire the shotshell, and then rebound to the retracted position. Took a bit of trial and error, but it might solve your problem. Cheers, Dave. Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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Valmet, Tikka and Fennewerk gunsmithing instructions and Valmet 412 owners manual posted per the link below: Valmet Gunsmithing and Owners Manuals | |||
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RJM, It sounds like you have an incredible coyote rifle with this combination. Is this what you hunt with it or do you also use it for other types of hunting? Thanks Best of all he loved the Fall.... E. Hemingway | |||
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If the shop where you worked was in south Calgary on east side of the Bow Trail, that's where I bought my Valmet 412 in the mid-70's. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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I have a lot of Valmet 412 experience, i've fired more than a thousand rounds through mine. I can tell you that even though some on this site can afford to get what ever they want so they look down on the lower priced doubles, for the rest of us there's the Valmet 412's. I've found them to be VERY reliable and accurate. 99.9% of the problems i've seen have been from fireing high pressure loads. I would trust mine for DG in a heart beat.... In fact i already have! DM  | |||
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DM, Ditto! I have used them since they first hit the US shores and have never had problen one. I presently have a 412 12/30-06, a 412S 12 o/u, and a Tikka with DT in 12/9,3X74R and o/u 9,3. I've sold off most of my barrel sets to friends on NitroExpress. I am keeping the ones I use most. I will have a 412S receiver and forend assembly for sale soon. I need only the 412 and Tikka. | |||
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It's really too bad Valmet didn't keep makeing these firearms and adding more cals.. They are very accurate and all of the ones i've been around have been totally reliable too. DM | |||
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Mine have been so good that I just yesterday bought a matched serial # Valmet 412 mdl in 12/30-06 for a decent price. I had sold my 12/'06 barrels with a 412 that went to a guy in BC, Canada. You don't happen to need another receiver and wood set, do you...? I have a 412S receiver/forend that I might sell. I'll probably take the Tikka DT set in 12/9,3 and o/u 9,3 as back up for my Ruger Hawkeye African I just bought and am waiting for. I like the Tikka, as it is not shiney like the Valmets and has DT. On my budget, I need to stop buying and sell a bunch of my guns to finance the Sept buffalo hunt...anybody need anything...  | |||
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I'm thinking of buying a Marocchi Finnclassic 512s in 12 ga. with 3.5" chambers. Does anyone know where I can buy aftermarket choke tubes? What is your opinion about this gun compared to the older versions made by Valmet and Tikka? Lefteris | |||
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No, i still have a lot of Valmet bbls ect.. around. I also have a NIB 412 double rifle i can dig out sometime too... As for the 412's compared to the 512's, all i can say is, Valmet used some very high quality steel in there guns, and IMO the 512's aren't of that same quality... DM | |||
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Jeff's Outfitters has choke tubes. I bought some excellent extended tubes from him. Use your search engine... | |||
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DM, According to Marocchi, they use high quality steel in their guns, so I suppose that this includes Finnclassic, also. luv2safari, As I can see, Jeff's Outfitters has only factory made tubes. I'm looking for some aftermarket tubes in specific constrictions, like some choke tube manufacturers offer. Anyway, I ordered the gun and when I will have it in hands I' ll post some opinions. Lefteris. | |||
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Do you think they would say that they use less than "high quality" steel??? Field reports i've heard from owners, are that the 412's are the better guns... My bbl man charged me 10 bucks extra for each one he worked on for me, because the steel was tough and he also told me it was of the highest quality... He said some of the best he had worked with... DM | |||
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My Tikka receiver and barrels aren't of the same finish as the Valmets by a long shot, but they fit properly and are as accurate as the Valmet barrel sets. I particularly like the fact that the Tikka isn't as polished as my Valmets...more of a matt finish that is better for hunting, IMO. I like them all!! | |||
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I'm still trying to get enough shots out of my 9.3 double to find a regulating load. My shooting today has been cancelled. Maybe tomorrow. I hope to find the money one day to get a shot/rifle barrel. Probably should have bought the combo barrel to begin with. But it is my first cartridge double! I have an over under percussion rifle/shotty in process of design now. .43 smooth/.45 rifled. Good shootin. Packy | |||
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Just forget that you have a "top" bbl. for the moment.... and work up a good accurate load for the bottom bbl., with what ever bullet your going to hunt with. I'll bet you the same load will be decent in the top bbl. too. Then you can regulate the bbls. to shoot together at what ever distance you like... Get well fitting screwdrivers, and don't overtighten the screws... DM | |||
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Thanks DM. I'm more frustrated with my inability to make it to the range than any load problems. I am going to use that method but will shoot the factory ammo over a chrono before I try too hard.  Packy | |||
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I have VALMETS for sale in the CLASSIFIEDS. I'm selling to bankroll my Sept Safari. | |||
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