If anyone ever has the desire to have the 2nd upper premolar x-rayed and the pulp cavity digitally measured on a lion they have shot and legally imported into the U.S....we are happy to provide that service free of charge.

PM or e-mail me for shipping instructions.

are they hard to remove, which tooth is that, I'm a dummy. I'd like to do mine

Lane,
Who provides the service?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Lane,
Who provides the service?

I do them at my hospital. Have been since 2006. All it takes is a high-quality radiogragh, an accurate method to measure the pulp-cavity (root canal), and a reference for width.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
are they hard to remove, which tooth is that, I'm a dummy. I'd like to do mine

I would recommend a taxidermist remove it. Easy from a fresh boiled skull. It is the small first upper cheek tooth.

quote:

and a reference for width.

would you mind posting that?

is the pulp width measured directly below the crown where it appears to be widest or below in the root?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

and a reference for width.

would you mind posting that?

Brad,

I know you are going to say this is a cop out but here is the deal.

The reference that I have is an unpublished (at this time) work of some fairly extensive data collected by a lady in graduate school at Tshwane University of Technology, South Africa.

I was given this in confidentiality with an agreement that I would not post it publically or give it to anyone. So...I cannot post it.

I would let you read it if you came by my office.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
is the pulp width measured directly below the crown where it appears to be widest or below in the root?

Below in the root ~ midway down.

For this to be remotely accurate you would have to have trend data from other cats killed in the specific region for which the cat was taken. For example we have already shown that lions from certian regions have much smaller skulls than lions from other regions. Teeth more than likely would corrolate closely with skull size. Therefore if you are measuring a specific width and comparing to a corresponding chart the chart must be from lions from either that very same region or at least a very close similar skull size. This relates very similarly to the problem state biologists had with adging deer jaws here.

quote:

Brad,

I know you are going to say this is a cop out but here is the deal.

The reference that I have is an unpublished (at this time) work of some fairly extensive data collected by a lady in graduate school at Tshwane University of Technology, South Africa.

I was given this in confidentiality with an agreement that I would not post it publically or give it to anyone. So...I cannot post it.

I would let you read it if you came by my office.

J. Lane Easter, DVM

Lane,
"cop out" is not the word I would use, the above does make it sound questionable from a scientific standpoint, would you not agree? I am not saying it does not work, as I wouldn't know, I would say that using some data someone slid you under the table and is neither published or accepted is questionable and for sure not "science".

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Brad,

I know you are going to say this is a cop out but here is the deal.

The reference that I have is an unpublished (at this time) work of some fairly extensive data collected by a lady in graduate school at Tshwane University of Technology, South Africa.

I was given this in confidentiality with an agreement that I would not post it publically or give it to anyone. So...I cannot post it.

I would let you read it if you came by my office.

J. Lane Easter, DVM

Lane,
"cop out" is not the word I would use, the above does make it sound questionable from a scientific standpoint, would you not agree? I am not saying it does not work, as I wouldn't know, I would say that using some data someone slid you under the table and is neither published or accepted is questionable and for sure not "science".

Brad,
Look on page 21 of the lion aging guide at the top of this forum.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...1002751/m/4481072751

There is a rough series in that book. I can tell you that if you just compared and eye-balled...you can easily know if your lion is 6 or greater...as the pulp-cavity narrows significantly beginning at ~5. Six and greaters look just like the 6 >'s in that guide.

Your lion was aged at 7-9...it will be a no brainer to see if that lion is 6 or greater on an x-ray.

I have some more precise measurements in the data I have...but this is not rocket science.

As to your comment about what is science or not or good research...I will argue my qualifications out-weigh yours here...as I have published several peer-rviewed studies...the latest being in 2010. And...I am a reviewer for scientific publishers. The paper I am privy too has a large volume of data and has not reached publication for academic reasons.

quote:

Teeth more than likely would corrolate closely with skull size.

Not pulp cavity width Ben. And especially not the ID to OD ratios. Now you are for sure talking on my ground. And there is data from all over Southern Africa. And...you know what...it is highly consistent...even to cage raised lions.

quote:

As to your comment about what is science or not or good research...I will argue my qualifications out-weigh yours here...as I have published several peer-rviewed studies...the latest being in 2010. And...I am a reviewer for scientific publishers. The paper I am privy too has a large volume of data and has not reached publication for academic reasons.

Lane,
I have not questioned the quality of the research, nor have I questioned your medical prowess, as it has been touted by you and others many times. And as far as the paper you are "privy" to, it may very well be the tits, but it has neither been accepted or published from the way it sounds. Are you one of the reviewers on this paper you are "privy" to? If so, have you informed the editor that you recommend it for publication? Surely you can understand the hesitation to accept as fact something someone was "given in confidentiality with an agreement that you would not post it publically or give it to anyone". I also appreciate your trust and offer to give it to me long enough to read it at your office, but does that not contradict the agreement you took it under?

I have also read the Lion aging guide posted at the top of the forum, and while very interesting, it is also very clear that aside from the few pics on the last pages, the entire collection of data is for lions in the Serengeti. Which, it would seem makes others points as to the need for area specific data, quite valid.

quote:

Not pulp cavity width Ben. And especially not the ID to OD ratios.

Lane,
Are you saying that tooth size does in fact vary with skull size but pulp cavity width does not?

quote:

And there is data from all over Southern Africa. And...you know what...it is highly consistent...even to cage raised lions.

Do you have access to that data, could you point me in the right direction where to get it?
Thanks in advance.