quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Lane,

I hope to heck you are right that the science is there.

It is there with a good fellow to implement it...Philippe Chardonette.

My point has repeatedly been not that it is wrong (because I haven't seen it) but rather that folks are saying its right without any scrutiny.

It has been scrutinized ad nausea...you don't run in the circles of that group. There was a lion aging meeting just held in RSA. Every person with any credible credentials on the biology of the lion was there. Ever heard of the African Lion Working Group?



I also gave up on hoping for "the tie goes to the runner" in grade school. It always went to the more popular guy, not any semblance of fairness.

I think you will be pleasantly surprized by how they handle a 5 year old.

I realize its likely what you said will go, because Tanzania wants the money that the hunters bring in, but it is a source of "baksheesh" as our Arab friends would say when they say that there is a "problem" with your trophy....

In reality, if this is just used as a way to stop the grossly underaged lion trophies from being exported, it may not be a bad thing- but with the Lacey act in the mix, the USFWS guys are being given another way to make J. Jackson Esq. a wealthier man. To some extent, your tag line says it all here.

Dr. Butler,
If the hunting community had listened...there would be NO 6 year old rule.

We (LCTF) were apposed to it. We favored a Niassa point system strategy. We came along to late. Other coutries need change as well. We hope to get ssystems withOUT a hard-and-fast 6 year old rule...but something modeled after Niassa.

I just wish that a poor juxtaposition of science and legalism were not being held like the sword of Damocles over every hunter who dares to shoot a lion.

Sometimes...it takes a club to wake folks up. The lion needs our (hunters) help.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Dr. Easter, didn't you say it has not been published?

Didn't you say that you cannot give it out because it isn't yours?

Just because it was discussed at a meeting, does not make it a proven fact. Lots of lion researchers were there... But maybe they are all predisposed to agree with these findings.

Researchers are NEVER predisposed to agree with each other. That is like saying Harry Reid & John Boehner are predisposed to agree with each other. Researchers are ALL opinionated.


They were unlikely to have a lot of time to go through the study and pick the methodology apart at the meeting. You need the skeptics who are going through with a fine tooth comb trying to screw up the findings to test the hypothesis. That's the scientific method.

Why hasn't this study been published?

This sounds like rather noteworthy findings that would belong in a prominent journal.

Sounds like from what you are saying that this data has been out to those in the know for a few years, if so why has it not been published? I don't think journals require over a year of lead time- heck in medicine they publish some stuff of import before the study is complete.

Again, there is a reason why research is published.

Dr. Butler, Have you ever published a scientific paper as a first author???

I'm glad that they are trying to do something about the decline in lion numbers, and hunters should do what they can. Avoiding disrupting prides, avoiding shooting young lion are good things, and I support that. I'm spending what a decent house costs to try and get a good male. This will be the second time I have done this, so far without success, so arguably my financial contributions have done more for the lion than most animal rights types.

Agreed!

It still seems to me that increasing human- lion conflict is going to be a problem, and if you pass age limitations, you have lost the source of revenue of having paying clients shoot problem lions, which are going to be shot or poisoned anyhow. (See the lioness thread on this subforum...) but that is a different item all together.

I'm glad that you have personal confidence in the folks that are running the show over there. That's good to know. I'm not sure how you can say that "If the hunting community had listened, there would be NO 6 year old rule..." when you in the past have agreed that Lion/human conflict killings by natives have much more impact than the past quotas; that the outcry is being driven by a vocal group who oppose any consumptive use of wildlife;

That is not 100% correct. Many people that support hunting in a responsible manner...are for the reform of lthe lion hunting industry.

and that you have not disagreed that the populations have not been well studied. No one has said there is any good science that shows that the hunting offtake IS the cause of lion decline, either.

Nobody...especially I or LCTF has said "hunting IS THE reason" for decline. But...it has contributed in some areas. And there are ways it can do better.

I know that people like TGTS and Adam Clements have done very well with protecting the lion on their concessions in Tanzania. I can understand that there is frustration with folks who don't (and not renewing concessions and being more proactive with quotas would seem to be a better solution- they have worked in the past)but does not make politicians in government or in academia look like they are "doing something." In any case, is there any chance of defeating this or rolling it back? Probably not.

Unfortunately...it is the law of the land in TZ. It is unlikely to ever change. The LCTF for the 1000th time was apposed to the law. We came along to late. We support a Niassa based system. If we as hunters don't embrace reform in some manner...we will see more laws like the hard-and-fast 6 yr old rule.


In any case I have seemed to indulged in thread drift of pretty large proportions here given that this has evolved from a simple discussion of a method of aging lion and its use (and your kind offer to age samples for folks) to a more generalized discussion of Tanzania's 6 year law.

I am going there, and as I have said before, if you go to someone else's house, you play by their rules. Tanzania has decided that this is how they are running the game, and I will have to see how I like it before I commit to spending more money there. I hope that there is absolutely no question that the lion I get is old, big and a true trophy, as that is all I intend to accept.

I bet you do just fine and have a wondeful experience. Your heart and mind are already in the right place.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
why not? What is your experience?

I am interested as a stakeholder to your experience as Chardonnet will be implementing the lion trophy monitoring program here in Tz for 2 years.

Feel free to email or PM me if you prefer.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Lane,

For MT lion and bear we have been using the height of the parallel portion of the canines above to jaw lion to estimate age. Has this method been tried on African lions?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I find this kind of interesting because Dr. White told me that this (dental aging via X-ray) did not really hold true in her experience. I believe her exact words were "It was not shown to correlate well statistically."

This was in 2009 when I met her in Zambia on the Luangwa. She darted a lioness with Alister Norton and I, which was as close to a lion as we came on that hunt. I had asked if I got a lion if she could age it with a tooth, as the DuPlooys were giving her a tooth out of each lion taken on their concession.

quote:

However, as I do not know the definitive ages of the trophy lions, there is no possibility of correlating the results to known ages, at least not at the present time. Thus, for the time being, I am assessing the method only as a comparative measure alongside tooth wear and pulp cavity x-rays. Hopefully, gum recession measures will be calibrated with known-aged African lions some day, but as Karyl has pointed out, regional differences in African lion ecology has the potential to create a lot of variability in gum recession rates in this species.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Lane,

For MT lion and bear we have been using the height of the parallel portion of the canines above to jaw lion to estimate age. Has this method been tried on African lions?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I find this kind of interesting because Dr. White told me that this (dental aging via X-ray) did not really hold true in her experience. I believe her exact words were "It was not shown to correlate well statistically."

This was in 2009 when I met her in Zambia on the Luangwa. She darted a lioness with Alister Norton and I, which was as close to a lion as we came on that hunt. I had asked if I got a lion if she could age it with a tooth, as the DuPlooys were giving her a tooth out of each lion taken on their concession.

.465 H&H and crbutler,

Here is an e-mail from Paula White that addresses both of your questions.

Hi Lane,

Sorry for the tardy response -- I have had virtually no comms for nearly the past 2 months. Karyl (Karyl Whitman that I posted previously) has already answered your question, but I wanted to add that I have begun taking this measurement of gum recession on African lion trophies whenever a sample is available. However, as I do not know the definitive ages of the trophy lions, there is no possibility of correlating the results to known ages, at least not at the present time. Thus, for the time being, I am assessing the method only as a comparative measure alongside tooth wear and pulp cavity x-rays. Hopefully, gum recession measures will be calibrated with known-aged African lions some day, but as Karyl has pointed out, regional differences in African lion ecology has the potential to create a lot of variability in gum recession rates in this species.

As Karyl states, PM2 x-rays are currently our best method of assigning wild lions to age class.

Best,Paula

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I find this kind of interesting because Dr. White told me that this (dental aging via X-ray) did not really hold true in her experience. I believe her exact words were "It was not shown to correlate well statistically."

This was in 2009 when I met her in Zambia on the Luangwa. She darted a lioness with Alister Norton and I, which was as close to a lion as we came on that hunt. I had asked if I got a lion if she could age it with a tooth, as the DuPlooys were giving her a tooth out of each lion taken on their concession.