No one knows as the system hasn't been tested yet. No trophy assessment has been conducted yet for lion trophies.

I know what I would do if it was my decision

Great post chaps.

See the current Sports Afield, at p. 106, for Paula White's article on aging lions and why it is important.

Aaron, thank you so much for posting this. I found it more than interesting.

I just got back from my 1st safari last week, and am just about ready to book my next. I am hoping to hunt Lions next year and this thread has been extremely informative and has given me a lot to think about.

Guys,

Here's a situation that I ran into recently. I was having a conversation with a PH that operates in the Kafue and he told me he has a couple of resident lion prides that he monitors. One of these prides has a very big but significantly aged male. He feels that this lion is at a point where he is physically vulnerable and could be killed at any time by younger males. He wants to shoot him if he can get a client interested. He actually had a client turn the lion down earlier because he was with the pride and the cubs were crawling on the old boy etc. Is this lion a shooter? I have a hard time argueing with this PH's logic.

Mark

Mark,

When you say "significantly aged"...what does that mean? Is he 9 or 10? The younger males are more likely to oust him and not kill him. And while not 100%...if he is shot...the young males that come in "may" kill young cubs.

I don't think you can use the age of the pride male as a justification to shoot him as he evidently is fertile and the pride productive.

And if you did use age as a justification...it would have to be a "known" advanced age like 9-10 for it to "really" be justification.

BTW...I polled the scientists prior to answering and to a one...they all said the same thing.

if he is still with the pride, he is still in charge....... and obviously breeding so 2 things could be happening:
1. he is still the "king" and keeping other males at bay or
2. there is a lack of younger males challenging his throne

in either scenario, the right decision is to pass him up....... if anything he has the chance to raise one more litter to independence and that is a good thing.

If he is obviously aged then he can be taken once this current litter has reached independence age - males at least >1.5 years of age - provided no new cubs have been fathered. This scenario is not necessarily a scientists recommended practice - i would classify it as an operators' policy that some would adopt albeit somewhat controversial.

Guys,

I'm just going on what the PH told me based on his 20 years experience in 7 countries. I don't have a clue on age but the PH said he was vulnerable because of deteriorating physical condition so I assumed 8 years +. His point was that if he did not shoot the lion that he might loose the big male AND the cubs if a male/males took over the pride. I assumed your advise would be to not shoot him but the PHs point seemed to make sense also.

Mark

this could very much be a case where the operator/ph makes a calculated call based on thier knowledge of the lions in his area.

i tend to think that old males, when challenged, know whether to surrender their pride without a fight and run or whether they stand a chance to retain their crown. if this male is physically frail, he will most likely abandon the territory if challenged and lives the rest of his life as a nomad.

Mark,
It would be impossible for anyone except God hisself to predict when a take over could occur. And even if it does...it is not probable that the old male will be killed...but definitly does happen for sure.

I think Bwanamich's advice is good...as long as he has less than 1.5 year old cubs don't take him. But...if they really think he is 8 plus...and no more lttle cubs come...I think it would be fine to take him out of the pride then once the present cubs are 1.5.

I will add...that disruption of pride dynamics is the single worst thing that hunters can do to the lion population of an area.

Re: a question‏
11/27/12
Reply ▼
Paula White

To LANE EASTER, Dr. Paula White, Craig Packer, Karyl Whitmann, Colleen Begg

Dear Lane,
I do not believe that shooting a pride male with young cubs is justifiable, under any circumstances.

Best,

Paula
Dr. Paula A. White
Director, Zambia Lion Project
Center for Tropical Research
University of California, Los Angeles USA

USA: 831-521-1218

Zambia Cell: +260 0978 093693

e-mail: paw@carnivoreconservation.com

On Nov 13, 2012, at 4:21 PM, LANE EASTER wrote:

A Question from a booking agent for a PH:

Here's a situation that I ran into recently. I was having a conversation with a PH that operates in the Kafue and he told me he has a couple of resident lion prides that he monitors. One of these prides has a very big but significantly aged male. He feels that this lion is at a point where he is physically vulnerable and could be killed at any time by younger males. He wants to shoot him if he can get a client interested. He actually had a client turn the lion down earlier because he was with the pride and the cubs were crawling on the old boy etc. Is this lion a shooter? I have a hard time argueing with this PH's logic.


What is the consensus from the experts?

Sincerely,
Lane

J. Lane Easter, DVM
Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons
Owner/Surgeon Performance Equine Associates
15257 U.S. Hwy. 377
Whitesboro, TX 76273
Phone: (903) 564-7443
Fax: (903) 564-3704
lane.easter@pea-tx.com
ledvm@msn.com
http://www.pea-tx.com/

I wonder how long it will be until every lion guide in Africa carries a black sharpie marker.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

I'm just going on what the PH told me based on his 20 years experience in 7 countries. I don't have a clue on age but the PH said he was vulnerable because of deteriorating physical condition so I assumed 8 years +. His point was that if he did not shoot the lion that he might loose the big male AND the cubs if a male/males took over the pride. I assumed your advise would be to not shoot him but the PHs point seemed to make sense also.

Mark

Mark,

Indeed this specific lion was elderly and should have been taken out. This is a prolific game area and has a very healthy Lion population. Note this pride male has not been seen since your visit.

If a bait was presented on one of his walk about routes no one would be any the wiser. I would say that many pride males are taken this way which is unfortunate.