I just scored an 1915 Erfurt small ring 98 action and waiting to pick it up from my FFL. It is currently wears a sporterized stock and is chambered in 8X57, but the guy said the bore is pretty dark. I'm not the biggest fan of 8mm rifles so the barrel has got to come off sooner or later. Then there is the fact that everything is all numbers matching and the receiver hasn't been D&T, that maybe I shouldn't be completeing the sporter process to take it to a full custom.

I've been thinking of cartridges I could do on this action 6mm Rem, .257 Bob, and 7X57 seemed obvious choices at first. However, I have a .243 Win and .25-06 that I love, and my .270 has stopped me from ever warming up to a 7mm. I've owned a 7mm-08, .280 Rem & GNR, and two 7mm Rem Mags and I've sold them all except one of the 7mm RM which is now a .375 Ruger.

My problem is I currently own a Savage 99 in .358 Win and 1903 in .35 Whelen, but I keep coming back to these two cartridges. I've enjoyed the 99 and it has my intrest in what a bolt action could do in a .358 peaked. The Whelen is great, but I prefer to use my .338-06 for most things.

I figure the 9X57 and the .358 Win should be about equal. I plan on using a 1:12 twist barrel in .358 regardless of what I chamber instead of getting a true 9mm barrel. The cartridge will just kind of help me to decide which direction I want to take the build.

I figure if I build a .358 Win I'll build it more along the lines of a classic American scoped hunting rifle. If I do the 9X57 I was thinking along the lines of a European stalking rifle with open sights. Good thing I'm not in a position to move forward on this rifle yet, so I have time to think about it.

FWIW I think you'll have better results feeding the cartridge with the 9 X 57

I'd go with the 9x57 for 2 reasons; 1st is the taper case will feed without mproblems. The minimum taper .358 case can cause feed problems in the Mauser actions. 2nd is that the 9.57 will better utilise the magazine length.

Might give some thought to simply setting back the shoulder and triming the neck on a .35 Whelen so the case is just long enough with a 250 gr SP seated to fit the magazine. A set of .35 Whelen dies can be simply shortened to make and load the new cartridge. A .35 Whelen reamer can then be used to chamber the barrel headspaced to the formed cases. That works for me and makes a very good .35 cal cartridge that feeds very well from Muaser actions and gives ballistics better than the .358 Win but not quite up to the Whelen. The longer Whelen neck is great with cast bullets also.

Larry Gibson

9.5x56 MS or 376 Steyr is what I would do with an action like that, personally. But you have American rifles in American calibers, stick something metric in there what ever it is you choose to do! How about a full mannlicher stock?

If you really like the platfrom you have now, than my suggestion, would be to have the barrel rebored to 355/358, and call it good. All the numbers will still match, and the 9X57 would be perfect. We did a very similar thing to a Simpson Mauser years ago, and the results were very good.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
If you really like the platfrom you have now, than my suggestion, would be to have the barrel rebored to 355/358, and call it good. All the numbers will still match, and the 9X57 would be perfect. We did a very similar thing to a Simpson Mauser years ago, and the results were very good.

Jerry

That is an idea, but I don't know if I'll like it the way it is. It hasn't arrived at my FFL yet, should have it early next week. Who did the rebore job?

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter: How about a full mannlicher stock?

I like full stock rifles very much. Was thinking around 18-20" for the barrel lenght so it might work. I'll mull that one over as well.

Some guys on the wildcat forum spoke well of cutrifle.com for reboring work. If I remember it was about 2-300$ for up to 4 caliber increases, a bit more if he also rechambering.

18-20 would be perfect for a full stock! I personally think mannlichers look rather....off....if done on anything longer.

Although I am a huge fan of the 358 Win, I would go with the 9.3x57. As others have mentioned, the only work required should be to simply screw on a new barrel. Plus you'll probably be the only one sitting around the campfire with one.

Lou

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Lou:
Although I am a huge fan of the 358 Win, I would go with the 9.3x57. As others have mentioned, the only work required should be to simply screw on a new barrel. Plus you'll probably be the only one sitting around the campfire with one.

Lou

While the 9.3 would be an option I really want to stick to .358 caliber bulets since I'm already casting some that is why the 9X57 and not the 9.3.

I believe you have got about all things covered now. If the original european configureation dosen't float your boat, all this discussion is academic.

Jerry

shoot it as an 8 and then see ..

and my vote? 358 winchester

forget the reboreing it usually is a no go with cold formed barrels, A new Shaw barrel chambered to 9 X 57 makes more economic sense and will handle the longer bullets betterif properly throated. roger

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Lou:
Although I am a huge fan of the 358 Win, I would go with the 9.3x57. As others have mentioned, the only work required should be to simply screw on a new barrel. Plus you'll probably be the only one sitting around the campfire with one.

Lou

While the 9.3 would be an option I really want to stick to .358 caliber bulets since I'm already casting some that is why the 9X57 and not the 9.3.

Gotcha!

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
forget the reboreing it usually is a no go with cold formed barrels, roger

ah, just what, exactly, do you mean by colf formed barrels? all button and cut rifles are "cold" .. and you most certainly can rebore and recut ... as, frankly, that's how they MAKE them .. bore a hole, cut the rifling ...

works GREAT on springfiend and enfield 14/17 barrels, even nasty old winchester 30-06 barrels

So we are running about 4 to 1 for the 9X57 over the .358 Win. Main reason is I might run into feeding problems with the .358 Win. Not that I've decided anything but how hard is it to get a .308 based cartridge to feed in an intermediate action? The reason I thought .358 Win was if I cast some bullets heavier than 250 grain, I'd have more room in the magazine. I've been dying to get my hands on an old 280 grain Lyman Mould, and I don't think either of my current rifles in .358 or .35 Whelen will handle that bullet.

The 308 case or 7.62X51 is shorter than the 57mm standard german 7,8 or 9mm, by about a 1/4". I can't imagine a problem with either.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
forget the reboreing it usually is a no go with cold formed barrels, roger

ah, just what, exactly, do you mean by colf formed barrels? all button and cut rifles are "cold" .. and you most certainly can rebore and recut ... as, frankly, that's how they MAKE them .. bore a hole, cut the rifling ...

Perhaps someone who is into reboring can help you understand as they did me on Mauser cold formed barrels. Any volunteers? roger

no offense, but you might have been told a story ..

Mausers, springfields, enfields, and the like are formed EXACTLY the same way .. drill a hole in a straight joint of steel, button rifle it, then tapered ...

in fact, other than hammer forged, all barrels are "cold formed" ... and CZ barrels, which are hammer forged, as well as most ruger centerfires, are all readily rebored.

never heard of it before, and it's your story .. why don't you tell us the details?

Taylor,

You know that my 1903 Springfield 35 Whelen was "rebored" and you also know what a tack driver that old barrel is because you have seen the groups. I would not be afraid to go that direction with a 9x57.

Barstooler

quote:

Originally posted by Barstooler:
Taylor,

You know that my 1903 Springfield 35 Whelen was "rebored" and you also know what a tack driver that old barrel is because you have seen the groups. I would not be afraid to go that direction with a 9x57.

Barstooler

Thanks, I did drop an email to a guy in Oregon and he said it would be around $300 to rebore to .358. That included renting a reamer and recuting the chamber. Don't think I could buy a new barrel and have it installed for that. Sure is something to think about.

bartsche, I'd love to hear what you were told as well. That way I could weigh in on things.

Thanks

Having 'built' rifles from military actions before by ourselves or by smiths my advice is to sell that barreled action now as it is and let someone else end up with it.

I would buy a new or used rifle already made with the features that I want.

That 'action' would require:
1. Modify the bolt handle to clear a scope. $75.
2. New trigger $150.
3. New Stock. Even a cheap one $150
3. Thin the trigger quard $50
4. Blue the gun $100
5. Drill and tap for scope $75
6. New barrel $200
7. M70 type safety $150
8. Heat treat action as it may be soft $75

That up to $1,025 of extra cost not including whatever you paid for that old clunker. Lets say you got it for $150 so thats now up to $1,175.



Ruger 77 Hawkeye 358 Win Walnut Matte Finish NIB $559 with scope rings!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=196736505

I'm willing to eat crow on this one Although it was possible that Germany made hammer forged barrels for the 98s after 1939 my original comment included all 98s and I was wrong. But I want you to know this wasn't my first screw up. roger beer

quote:

Originally posted by Conservative Rifleman:
Having 'built' rifles from military actions before by ourselves or by smiths my advice is to sell that barreled action now as it is and let someone else end up with it.

I would buy a new or used rifle already made with the features that I want.

That 'action' would require:
1. Modify the bolt handle to clear a scope. $75.
2. New trigger $150.
3. New Stock. Even a cheap one $150
3. Thin the trigger quard $50
4. Blue the gun $100
5. Drill and tap for scope $75
6. New barrel $200
7. M70 type safety $150
8. Heat treat action as it may be soft $75

That up to $1,025 of extra cost not including whatever you paid for that old clunker. Lets say you got it for $150 so thats now up to $1,175.



Ruger 77 Hawkeye 358 Win Walnut Matte Finish NIB $559 with scope rings!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=196736505

You are right that would be cheaper, but no where near as fun. I've got plenty of production rifles, I now think more about what I can do with one than what I can buy. Still it would be cheaper but the Ruger isn't what I want.

Hey Roger BTDT too!

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
forget the reboreing it usually is a no go with cold formed barrels, A new Shaw barrel chambered to 9 X 57 makes more economic sense and will handle the longer bullets betterif properly throated. roger

Bulldroppings!

I have dozens of rebored military mauser barrels. They are top notch shooters. I would take one any day over the crap produced by ER Shaw.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
forget the reboreing it usually is a no go with cold formed barrels, A new Shaw barrel chambered to 9 X 57 makes more economic sense and will handle the longer bullets betterif properly throated. roger

Bulldroppings!


I have dozens of rebored military mauser barrels. They are top notch shooters. I would take one any day over the crap produced by ER Shaw.

What can I say? A double screw up. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
forget the reboreing it usually is a no go with cold formed barrels, A new Shaw barrel chambered to 9 X 57 makes more economic sense and will handle the longer bullets betterif properly throated. roger

Bulldroppings!


I have dozens of rebored military mauser barrels. They are top notch shooters. I would take one any day over the crap produced by ER Shaw.

What can I say? A double screw up. roger

+3

Barstooler

I have owned a Hasquvarna M98 in 9.3X57, a Win Mod 70 short action push feed in 358 Win, a BLR 81 in 358 Win, a Mauser 98 in 9.3X62 and a Mannlicher Schoenauer 1910 in 9.5X57 MS.

I like the classic rifles and also the 358 Win. I still own the last two in that list & regret having sold the Winchester. If I was building a rifles of this capability on a M98 intermediate action it would be the 9.3X57. The 9X57 is quite obsolete IMO. If I had a large ring Mauser action, it would be the 9.3X62. I would keep the 358 Win for a short action rifle and the MS cartridge for MS rifles only - I just like to keep the classics as they were intended and the 9.5X57MS is a low pressure round for the MS action - 200fps to 300 fps slower than the 9.3X57 for 232 gr or 270 gr bullets.

No flies in the 9.3X57 in a M98 intermediate action. Good enough for elk with 250 gr Accubonds out to 250 meters.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have owned a Hasquvarna M98 in 9.3X57, a Win Mod 70 short action push feed in 358 Win, a BLR 81 in 358 Win, a Mauser 98 in 9.3X62 and a Mannlicher Schoenauer 1910 in 9.5X57 MS.

I like the classic rifles and also the 358 Win. I still own the last two in that list & regret having sold the Winchester. If I was building a rifles of this capability on a M98 intermediate action it would be the 9.3X57. The 9X57 is quite obsolete IMO. If I had a large ring Mauser action, it would be the 9.3X62. I would keep the 358 Win for a short action rifle and the MS cartridge for MS rifles only - I just like to keep the classics as they were intended and the 9.5X57MS is a low pressure round for the MS action - 200fps to 300 fps slower than the 9.3X57 for 232 gr or 270 gr bullets.

No flies in the 9.3X57 in a M98 intermediate action. Good enough for elk with 250 gr Accubonds out to 250 meters.

Quite obsolete in that Factory ammo isn't as easy to find perhaps. But, if coupled with a .358" barrel, then all the bullets that make the .358" Win & .35 Whelen useful are yours to use.

Me, I'm also a huge 9,3mm fan and the 9,3x57 is my favorite, followed closely by the 62, and then the 64. Never cared much for the Whelen but the 9x57 is just about as much fun as the 9,3x57. At least to me. Then again, I still find the 10,75x57 fun to shoot.

The 9x57 or 9,3x57 are naturals for the Small Ring Kar actions. Low enough presuures to avoid any action issues yet useful enough in the field to warrant building.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
The 308 case or 7.62X51 is shorter than the 57mm standard german 7,8 or 9mm, by about a 1/4". I can't imagine a problem with either.

Jerry

I have two medium length small ring Mausers, one in .308 and the other in .358. While feeding is not a real problem, the .358 feeds much more smoothly than the .308. I don't know what the .358 was originally but the .308 was a 7.65x53 before the rebarrel. The .358 was already put together when I bought it. The only problem with that .358 is it don't shoot worth a damn. The grooves are deep and the lands are quite wide for a four groove barrel, but the lands also have a shallower set of grooves in some of them, but not all. I haven't figured tht one out yet but I'm thinking of yanking that barrel and making it into some thing else. I already have 4 other rifles in .358 so it won't be missed. Too many project ideas and too little money and time.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

The 9x57 or 9,3x57 are naturals for the Small Ring Kar actions. Low enough presuures to avoid any action issues yet useful enough in the field to warrant building.

I like that! I'm not really into old Miltary Surplus rifles for sporterizing. However I love old sporterized surplus rifles. I guess I see some unfinished potential in some of them. Plus I can't resist a good deal when it comes along on the rifles or actions.