I was wondering if the wsms calibers would be dropped by everyone if Winchester is gone forever?Do you think the Rick Jamison lawsuit was the final nail on the coffin.I bet there will be alot of people buying old caliber Winchester model 70s in 243,270,30-06 300 win mag 338 win mag ,375 and a bunch of people dumping their wsms and wssm.I bet its not long for Remington also.They are in a big mess over pensions and loosing money every year.I guess Ruger will be the only American Gun Company left standing as far as long guns.I am buying two Winchesters that I planned on anyway both oldy but goodies a Winchester 1895 in 405 win and a 94 in 25-35.I have been waiting for both of them before this happened.I just hope Winchester ammo is not in trouble also.I am buying a bunch of parts for my winchester rifles asap.

No

Savage is still in business, I would never buy a Ruger.

I have both a WSM and a Wssm and plan on keeping both, regardless what happen to the M70. I'm wondering why you think it will make any difference. Olin owns the Winchester ammo brand name and they aren't going to flush all that R&D.

I dont think it will make a difference to rounds like the 270WSM, and 300 WSM, some of the wssm's may die off a little sooner, but probably not a whole lot faster than they were anyways...

quote:

Without Winchester will the wsms and wssm survive?

They say that every cloud has a silver lining.

Olin owns the WSM and WSSM line, not USRAC.

The WSM's will survive. The WSSM's -- maybe, if the target shooters pick them up like they have been. JMO, Dutch.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:
The WSM's will survive. The WSSM's -- maybe, if the target shooters pick them up like they have been. JMO, Dutch.

Just out of interest, what target shooters would that be to "continue" to pick up the wssm calibers??

- mike

I bet all of the wssms,and wsms except the 270 wsm and 300 wsm disapear quickly.I love Ruger rifles I owned one Savage a 458 win mag.I didnt trust it so I didnt fire it.Someone had the wonderful idea to make mine 6 and 3/4 pounds.I hate the Savage bolt it looks like a clunked up mess of parts that someone threw together.I also hate that barrel nut.If they got rid of thouse two ugly ass things and put on some good wood they would have a decient rifle.Savage has been where Winchester is today also.They got rid of their 1899 rifle which was wat ahead of its time.I do like savage 1899s but bought one in a 250 savage that thought it was supose to shoot shot gun patterns instead of rifle groups.My dad loved savage stevens 311 sxs but I hated how you had to push the further to open. think the Ruger 77 is coming into its place as the classic Rifle that it always has been.It was the rifle that came with a classic straight stock that had no ugly white line spacers or frickin cheek piece.I will never buy another Savage bolt action.Maybe they are alright for a varmit gun but I would not trust one with any round 300 mag or larger.The Savage action looks like some kinda junk a plumber slapped together.

quote:

Originally posted by mho:

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:
The WSM's will survive. The WSSM's -- maybe, if the target shooters pick them up like they have been. JMO, Dutch.

Just out of interest, what target shooters would that be to "continue" to pick up the wssm calibers??

- mike

I'd like to know too.

They have no use in NRA Highpower or NRA Long Range. So that leaves Benchrest. And I doubt they use them too much.

I bought a Stainless Browning BLR lever action a few months ago all my gunsmith could find was a stainless BLR in the 270 WSM.I would have rather had a standard caliber 7mm08,308,358 etc.
But all his distributer had was the WSM`s.I love the fit and finish of the BLR the 270 wsm I could take or leave,Since I don`t reload shold I be looking to trade this 270 wsm off for something else?

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
I'd like to know too.

They have no use in NRA Highpower or NRA Long Range. So that leaves Benchrest. And I doubt they use them too much.

Definitely no use in short range BR - cases are way too big - 6PPCs and family rule with the odd 6BR thrown in. BR for score seems to be all .30 BR these days. Long range BR does not really have a dominating caliber, but I have yet to run into any mention of WSSMs. In fact, the WSSMs have a decidedly bad reputation over on benchrest.com - largely because of trouble with brass and generally poor accuracy.

- mike

Don't move too fast. There will be M70's along soon from somewhere. The ammo business is profitable and owned by the Olin Corp.

Also Kimber, Savage, Remington, Tikka, Sako, Browning, and others chamber the WSM's so there will be demand for the ammo and thus a supply.

Every cartridge does not make it anyway. The 270 WSM and 300 WSM are here to stay.

I would imagine that the ammo side of winchester will continue and its probably one of the few areas of winchester,that turns a good profit.

As for wsm and wssm,I've seen more browning rifles in the field and at the range chambered for these rounds then M70's.So I doubt the following of the rounds will cease.

quote:

Originally posted by RMK:
I would imagine that the ammo side of winchester will continue and its probably one of the few areas of winchester,that turns a good profit.

Winchester Ammunition and US Repeating Firearms are NOT the same company, NOR are they part of the same corporation.

Winchester Ammunition = Olin Corporation.

US Repeating Firearms = Herstal Group.

US Repeating Arms merely licensed the names Winchester, Model 70, and a host of other trademarks from Olin.

AFAIK, USRAC (and therefore the Herstal Group) still owns the designs of most Winchester firearms (with the exception of the Model 21).

quote:

Originally posted by mho:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
I'd like to know too.

They have no use in NRA Highpower or NRA Long Range. So that leaves Benchrest. And I doubt they use them too much.

Definitely no use in short range BR - cases are way too big - 6PPCs and family rule with the odd 6BR thrown in. BR for score seems to be all .30 BR these days. Long range BR does not really have a dominating caliber, but I have yet to run into any mention of WSSMs. In fact, the WSSMs have a decidedly bad reputation over on benchrest.com - largely because of trouble with brass and generally poor accuracy.

- mike

I agree. Probably the "target shooters" Dutch was referring to are the typical 100 yard hackers.

I just sold my M-70 in 270 WSM. I liked the gun but even reloading ammo was to damned expensive. It kicked harder than it should. I replaced it with a Remington 700 ADL in 7mm mag which I will be re-stocking and converting to a removable magizine gun in short order.

I have a Remington 700 in 270 WSM and like it.

I have 8 Winchester 70s in 243 and 25 WSSM and like them.

The cheapest Winchester 70 Super Shadow in 25 WSSM is among the most accurate out-of-the-box rifles that I've ever owned. Once the barrel was floated and the trigger tuned it wasn't too hard to shoot sub-MOA groups with a variety of Winchester factory ammo. The 85 grain SBTs were really good. Although I have only done a little reloading for the 25 WSSM, I think that the 75 grain VMax will be a great 400+/- pdog combo out of a Shilen barreled 70 Super Shadow that I just got back from the 'smith.

Jeff

Cartridges will thrive or die whether or not the parent company that brought it forth is around or not. Look at the 416 Rigby, the 45 Colt and a host of others that haven't always had guns produced by the parent company.

The success or failure of the WSSM and WSM's was and is not tied to whether or not Winchester produces rifles chambered for those rounds.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:
Olin owns the WSM and WSSM line, not USRAC.

The WSM's will survive. The WSSM's -- maybe, if the target shooters pick them up like they have been. JMO, Dutch.

Well after the dust settled in court a few weeks back. They belong to Rick Jamison. So with Winchester out of the picture those caliber may very well die.

Food for thought... Olin licensed the winchester name to USRAC to avoid liability, perhaps with the new firearms liability law in place, they may buy it back. One could hope. That being said, Short Magnums are the latest and greatest, sales have been pretty soft, and don't perform much better than existing cartridges. Most are picky feeding with few powder choices. That being said, I don't think they have the staying power.

John

Its sad to hear the wsm might vanish I chose the wsm in 7mm, because the 7mm has a very good bullet choice and I had a very good .280 Rem,
Because of winchester marketing and the ghost of Jack Oconnor Noth American shooters choose the .270wsm over the 7mmwsm, when Jack said himself the .280 was a better cartridge.
For people who think the wsm is not worth getting over the old .270 & 30.06 they say it kicks to much etc.
Well I did a comparison with 30.06 150gr & 58 grs powder with a 8.5lb gun=19.4lbs recoil, 7mmwsm 140gr & 67grs powder, 8.5lb gun 21.3 whats 3 lbs ,If you compare these two ballists of these loads, the 06 is a long way behind in everything
ya I know the 200grs are better in the 06 , then just get a 300wsm.
These short stubby class of cartridges are amazingly easy to get to tac, remember what the short stubby 6ppc did to the 222 etc
well these short mags will do the same to the .06 & .270
I have never seen a .270 do anything at a benchrest shoot the .06 was ok pre .308 win intruduction. take a look at the the first short stubby .284 win in 6.5 at benchrest shooting
For me the wsm case is the best cass in a long time, and if you are looking for a new gun get one, and you will never look back.

manitou, The SAUM design is superior to the WSM!!! DId I say it would do anything that some of the other available choices we already had wouldn't do?....NO!!! But the inherrent probabilities of the SAUM case vs the WSM case or quite different!! My bet is that in time you will see more versions of the SAUM case, be it 6mm, .257(that one would and could be stupendous!!!) 6.5(my bet for the most) .277, .284 and even a few variations of the .308 show up at rifle matches and DO EXTREMELY WELL!!! 100-1000 yards!!! Already seen a couple of the 6.5 variants do pretty good!! (Williamsport, 2005) This post may be off the topic but I'll get back to it!!! If the WSM and WSSM disapeeared tonite..no big loss!!! GHD

The only thing that makes the WSM cartridges a realistic choice over the established rounds is the Kimber rifle, and for that reason alone the WSM's may last forever!

quote:

Originally posted by mho:

Just out of interest, what target shooters would that be to "continue" to pick up the wssm calibers??

- mike

Mike, the 6.5 WSSM has been making a more than fair showing at the 1,000 yard matches. IIRC, Boyd Heaton set a record with his recently. Several versions of improved/ 223 angle 25 angle are being played with. It seems to have "what it takes" to get 140's going across the range at the right speed, consistently. FWIW, Dtuch.

Definetly going to be gone soon. I hope none of you get "stuck" with one of those "now worthless" WSM's!!!

As a service to fellow AR members I will be purchasing any and all rifles chambered in any of the WSM's at their scrap value (approx. $6.38) (WSSM- $4.33)

Please PM me and I will send payment and FFL immediately.......

IV

I come to find that the biggest advantage to the WSM is the short action which saves the rifle maker money, but still costs us the same as the long action.

On the other hand, the classic cartirdges (H&H mags, -06, etc) were primarily designed for ease of feeding and extraction. WSM's, on the other hand was soly designed to get the most velocity from the case with no regard to function. Add to that, the WSM calibers are high pressure rounds that try their best to stick brass to steel. To make matters worse, they stuck on a rebated rim so it will fit in a standard bolt face and at the same time increasing the risk of the extractor jumping the rim. High ambient temperatures increase pressure making the problem worse.

That being said, given a choice between 7mm WSM and 7mm Rem Mag, the Rem Mag will win out. I don't mind the extra 1/2" of bolt throw. I am sure there are enough WSM's to keep the cartridge alive, but I have the feeling that there will be fewer new offerings and you will probably see the rifle offerings start to fade, but then again, some things that stick around confound the imagination.

John

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
I agree. Probably the "target shooters" Dutch was referring to are the typical 100 yard hackers.

As stated above, the 6.5 WSSM is making solid inroads into the 6.5-284's domination of the 1000 yd. game. It may not replace the 6.5-284, but right now it is the hot new caliber.

As for the WSSM's and their staying power, I hope it will be good. Unlike many who rail against these cartridges, I actually have owned two of them. The .233 was a typical factory rifle that is to say it was underwhelming. Most of the issues had to do with the rifle however and not the case design. Even so, it would shoot an inch all day even with the light factory #1 contour barrel. After messing with it just for fun, I pulled the barrel and installed a Broughton 3 groove 25 WSSM tube and is that a sweetheart. .3 is very normal with the 110 Accubond.

I will say for the .223 and the .243 that they would do best in a custom tight neck chamber that required the necks to be turned. The only problem I see with either of them is the excessively thick neck.

Gabe

I have alwasy Bought Remington and have never been dissaponited. Then one day I wanted to give a WSSM a try. This is why Whinchester is in trouble I will only buy Remingtion in the future.

I bought a new in the box mod 70 .25 wssm. for whiteail and other small game. On my first trip to the range I brought some win factory loads 100gr supreme. When I fired them the bolt was difficult to lift the handle but I continued to zero the scope and the shoot some groups. This gun shot worst than any gun I have ever fired. 3-4 inches at 100 yards was the best group. so I checked the scope cleaned the gun and tried again another day the results were tyhe same. I could not belive my results so I took the gun to my gunsmith and had him remount the scope and then took the gun to a local guy that makes realy good custom ammo and left it with him to work up a load,after a few days He called me and said to come pick up my rifle that he could not make it shoot. I called winchester and the service people treated me like I was a idoit and were no help.Just told me to send them the rifle.
I talked to my gunsmith he said that in his experince that they would send the gun back and say there was nothing wrong with it. I belive Him after my conservation.
I'm stuck with a gun that I can't feal good about selling so I guese I'll let Kevin Weaver rebarrel and square my action. around $600.
Has anyone else had thes problemes with winchester.

Dr B

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:
Mike, the 6.5 WSSM has been making a more than fair showing at the 1,000 yard matches. IIRC, Boyd Heaton set a record with his recently. Several versions of improved/ 223 angle 25 angle are being played with. It seems to have "what it takes" to get 140's going across the range at the right speed, consistently. FWIW, Dtuch.

Thanks Dutch, one learns something new every day.
- mike

quote:

Originally posted by papaschmud:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
I agree. Probably the "target shooters" Dutch was referring to are the typical 100 yard hackers.

As stated above, the 6.5 WSSM is making solid inroads into the 6.5-284's domination of the 1000 yd. game. It may not replace the 6.5-284, but right now it is the hot new caliber.

As for the WSSM's and their staying power, I hope it will be good. Unlike many who rail against these cartridges, I actually have owned two of them. The .233 was a typical factory rifle that is to say it was underwhelming. Most of the issues had to do with the rifle however and not the case design. Even so, it would shoot an inch all day even with the light factory #1 contour barrel. After messing with it just for fun, I pulled the barrel and installed a Broughton 3 groove 25 WSSM tube and is that a sweetheart. .3 is very normal with the 110 Accubond.

I will say for the .223 and the .243 that they would do best in a custom tight neck chamber that required the necks to be turned. The only problem I see with either of them is the excessively thick neck.

Gabe

1000 yard benchrest is a pretty limited arena. Palma is the realm of the 308 Win, and the 6.5-284, along with other barrel burners like it have fallen out of favor in NRA Long Range.

None of the WSMs or WSSMs have any application in NRA Conventional Highpower, which is by far the largest organized rifle shooting sport in number of participants.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
Palma is the realm of the 308 Win, and the 6.5-284, along with other barrel burners like it have fallen out of favor in NRA Long Range.

None of the WSMs or WSSMs have any application in NRA Conventional Highpower, which is by far the largest organized rifle shooting sport in number of participants.

I don't know the rules of NRA highpower or Palma. What I do know is that the WSSM case is essentially the same in capacity as the 308 case, but short enough to be adaptable to the AR. Several people are in the process of adapting uppers to this sort of configuration, and experimenting with different bullet diameter and shoulder configurations.

Those who like "boing - boing" rifles seem kind of excited by the concept.

This whole discussion reminds me of the disdain the "mouse gun" shooters were treated with when they started showing up with their AR's at matches. Now, look how many are shooting the AR platform in 223 / 77 gr. and heavier with great success. FWIW, Dutch.

The WSSM will fit in the AR-15 platform

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
Palma is the realm of the 308 Win, and the 6.5-284, along with other barrel burners like it have fallen out of favor in NRA Long Range.

None of the WSMs or WSSMs have any application in NRA Conventional Highpower, which is by far the largest organized rifle shooting sport in number of participants.

I don't know the rules of NRA highpower or Palma. What I do know is that the WSSM case is essentially the same in capacity as the 308 case, but short enough to be adaptable to the AR. Several people are in the process of adapting uppers to this sort of configuration, and experimenting with different bullet diameter and shoulder configurations.

Those who like "boing - boing" rifles seem kind of excited by the concept.

This whole discussion reminds me of the disdain the "mouse gun" shooters were treated with when they started showing up with their AR's at matches. Now, look how many are shooting the AR platform in 223 / 77 gr. and heavier with great success. FWIW, Dutch.

Palma requires the use of 308 Winchester ammnution, no exceptions.

As far as Highpower, I can tell you with 100% certainty that using a magnum of any kind is an exercise in futility and will result in failure. Short and fat cartridges that are far less radical in shape have already been tried and been found to be a nightmare to make feed, with the exception of the 6 mm PPC and 6.5 Grendel (which is based on the PPC case as well)

In addition, barrel life of less than 3000 rounds is seen as unacceptable and recoil is something to be avoided at all costs.

The trend has been to less powerful, more efficient cartridges pushing bullets of VERY high ballistic coefficients at moderate (by hunting stadards) velocities.

I'm only saying this to show the flip side of the coin. There are target shooting disciplines where the WSM/WSSM cartridges are simply the wrong direction and will never make any inroads. Sure, some will try them. But soon they will find out what has been found in the past and go back to what works.

Finally, most Highpower shooters compete in the Service Rifle category, where only 223, 308, and 30-06 are allowed.

HP said:
"1000 yard benchrest is a pretty limited arena. Palma is the realm of the 308 Win, and the 6.5-284, along with other barrel burners like it have fallen out of favor in NRA Long Range.

None of the WSMs or WSSMs have any application in NRA Conventional Highpower, which is by far the largest organized rifle shooting sport in number of participants."

Nothing like stating an opinion as fact.

I better tell two local HighPower Masters that the 243WSSM uppers they have built "have no application in HighPower".

Dutch: I agree, similar rhetoric was plentiful when the AR's started showing up on the HighPower line. Wonder how that worked out?

And 1000yds matches are becoming more popular, including sniper competition. There is room for everybody, including rifles and cartridges some consider "not applicable".
Look to guys like David Tubb, who keeps an open mind about what may work.

Some great info can be found at: 6mmbr.com/index.html

Without a big marketing push from somewhere the short and fats just don't seem to offer enough on their own to stay viable against more traditional catridges. I don't think most of them have a future.

quote:

Originally posted by Mulerider:
I better tell two local HighPower Masters that the 243WSSM uppers they have built "have no application in HighPower".

Look to guys like David Tubb, who keeps an open mind about what may work.

Two shooters does not a trend make. I just about guarantee they will get tired of burning barrels in 1000 rounds and will rebarrel to something else in less than two years.

David Tubb has already considered the WSM case as inferior to the SAUM case for long range cartridges. Read his latest book "The Rifle Shooter". In that book he also says he's coming out with a new 7 mm magnum based on the SAUM case, and three years later, we're still waiting. In the meantime, he wins the 2004 LR championship with this 6 mm XC and a 115 grain bullet. So it seems to me that magnum mania comes and goes in highpower, but never stays.

And since you feel like throwing NRA classifications around, I too am a Master. I got mine with a service rifle shooting 223, though. And I'm pretty sure I'll get High Master and Distinguished Rifleman with it too.

Whatever. I already have a custom Model 70 in 260 remington for when I get tired of playing with the AR across the course.

No trends indicated, just guys savvy enough to know conditions sometimes dictate something more than their service rifle Ar's. Match rifle time ain't bad time.
Just pointing out smart people can work outside the norm.

We have a local competitor who has almost reached Master level with a Garand; we admire his skills, rather than admonish him for his choice of rifle.

My opinion is the wsm/wssm are more applicable to the long range competition, not HighPower.

I retired on the cusp of Master level, likely forever branded an "Expert". Other obligations and hobbies got in the way of the necessary practice to move up in classification.
That long range stuff looks interesting, especially where optics are used....

The wsms and the wssm will take a big hit without winchesters.I know that before this happened that the 270 wsm was probally the most popular of the wsm cartridges.I think the wssm and the remington short mags will join the dodo bird.I also see the 300 wsm keeping its place .I see the 325wsm that was just introduced maybe lasting 3 years or so.I always ask shooters at the range what they are shooting.I also pick up brass.The short Remingtons are a pain in the butt becasuse they are so wasy to get mixed up with the winchester wsm.The 204 Ruger was very unique.It was a copy of nothing and a new caliber.I see it taking its ouw nitch with any other .20 calibers coming out to compete withit.The 300 wsm was a direct competor of the 300 win mag.I heard alot of people say its just as good.It is when using 180 gr or less bullets but any larger bullets and the 300 win mag takes over big time.I have heard thyat if the wssm had small primer pockets instead of large ones they would have been alot better.I would rather have a 25-06 instead of a 25 wssm.The 7mm wsm and the 7 rem short mag were not needed.There are too many .28 calibers already.The Remington 7 mm mag is way better of a gun than either of them.The 325 wsm is a failed bore size in the united states.It is supose to be just as good as a 8mm rem mag and thats hard to believe.If it had beenn a 338 wsm I think it might have made it but the 338 wsm was a 100 fps slower than the 338 win mag with smaller bullets.The wsms ,remington short mags were a trick of the trade to get use to buy new guns.If 500 hired gun writters say we all needed a new 30-06 we wont buy that many but if its a new 30-06 improved that does everything the 30-06 does but its better then they have alot more sales.Roy Weatherby was a man who brought out cartridges way ahead of his time.The remington rum cartridges were over shadowed by the wsms cartridges before they got ahold.I knew guys that sold their 300 win mag to buy a 300 ultra mag then sold it to buy a 300 wsm and didnt like it and bought another 300 win mag in the end.I didnt buy any of them.I bought two 264 win mags a cartridge to far ahead of its time .It was intoduced in 26" barrels which were the right barrels for this caliber then winchester and browning brought out 22" barreled 264.Then gun writers trashed the 264.Then the 7mm rem mag came out and that was the end of the 264 winb mag.The ones I have are stainless Ruger 77 markII only bad thing they have 24" barrels and a short throat.The good thing is they have shot 3/8" groups with good loads at 100 yards and I love them.Winchester just about quit making the old calibers to sell the new wsms.I asked a distributor yesturday which calibers cl;eared out the fastest he said the older ones were gone in the blink of an eye.

quote:

Originally posted by .223 VARMINT-VENTALATOR:
I just sold my M-70 in 270 WSM. I liked the gun but even reloading ammo was to damned expensive. It kicked harder than it should. I replaced it with a Remington 700 ADL in 7mm mag which I will be re-stocking and converting to a removable magizine gun in short order.

This does not make much sense to me. The M70 that I have in 7mm WSM kicks about the same as any other rifle of similar weight and stock configuration. As to the expense to shoot it as compared to any other 7mm mag again it should cost about the same as other cartridges to shoot.