quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
We can only speak from our own experiences and in my hunting lifetime I've owned exactly four rifles out of a couple hundred that would/will shoot three shots under an inch first time-every time.

It would be best if you gave more information concerning how involved you got into your other guns.

- Do you do your own bedding?
- Do you have good triggers on all your rifle's?
- Did you have some basic riflesmithing done to the other rifle's like re-crowning or headspacing?
- Any custom barrels on the other rifles's?(This alone can mean lots because then the bolt lugs, headspacing and crowning should be excellent.)
- Do you reload with more advanced neck sizing?

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
There are so many other variables that come into play, especially at 300 yards and beyond, that an extra half inch of benchrest accuracy (comforting though it is) is lost almost immediately when shooting in the field, from improvised positions, under time pressure. Unless your deer, elk, or moose are really, really small a rifle that will shoot into 1-1.5 inches is more than enough IF it has an excellent trigger and is a good fit to the shooter.

It is precisely because there are so many other variables that there is no such thing as too much accuracy. A rifle that shoots 1.5 moa will do no better than 6 inches from a bench at 400 yards. On a ten inch vital area, that gives you only 2 inches of wind error, or about 2 mph with most calibers. A 1/2 moa rifle will give you double the allowable windage error.

Same thing applies to wobbly holds. The more accurate rifle allows you more "wobble error."

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
We can only speak from our own experiences and in my hunting lifetime I've owned exactly four rifles out of a couple hundred that would/will shoot three shots under an inch first time-every time.

It would be best if you gave more information concerning how involved you got into your other guns.

- Do you do your own bedding?
- Do you have good triggers on all your rifle's?
- Did you have some basic riflesmithing done to the other rifle's like re-crowning or headspacing?
- Any custom barrels on the other rifles's?(This alone can mean lots because then the bolt lugs, headspacing and crowning should be excellent.)
- Do you reload with more advanced neck sizing?

Generally yes to all of that except I'm not sure what you mean by advanced neck sizing. None of my hunting guns have or will have tight-neck chambers. I've been through my share of setting up rifles with all the tricks that work on the bench and make them unreliable in the field.

I've also done extensive rework to rifles and failed to get anything close to reasonable improvement for the money spent. Some barrels just don't shoot.

The Sauer shoots like that with no more case prep than flash hole deburring and trim-to-length. Also, it is engineered in a way that doen't require additional bedding.

The Savage Swift actually shoots about 25% of its' 5-shot groups .15 inch or better. It weighs over 13 lbs scoped. I do a lot of bench-type case prep and the only load that shoots like (so far) is slow by Swift standards. In good weather (no wind) I used to screw with guys at the range by betting them I could put my .224 round through their .308 or bigger bullet hole on demand at 100 yds. Of course, after a shot or two it never took long to be accused of shooting off-paper so I'd ask them to call a clock position and I'd put a round through again, just clipping their hole on the inside at that clock position. To do that I needed my 36 power bench scope with fine hairs and a 1/8 MOA dot, and I shot the gun "free recoil" meaning no part of me touched the rifle except my finger on the Canjar set trigger (try that one in the woods). I also needed to shoot 10-15 rounds to get my rhythm and get "dialed in" for the conditions that day (not conducive to successful hunting). Some days I just couldn't reach that zen plateau you need to be at to shoot like that. BTW, that scope is useless for hunting and I cannot repeat the trick with a standard hunting/varmint scope. In fact, I miss as many p-dogs with that rifle beyond 300 yds as my less capable 22s and I hit as many inside 200 with any of the others as with the Swift. The point of the story is to reinforce the issue that all that accuracy isn't translatable to the field, just like a top fuel dragster is just another 70 mph car on the freeway.

The AR 15 gobbles mixed headstamped milspec brass with no weighing, prep or other treatment beyond full length resizing and trimming for function.

I haven't had the Rem 700 long enough to say it does anything exept shoot that lot of factory ammo like a house 'afire. I haven't touched it or even taken it out of the stock yet. The trigger must be close to six or seven pounds but it is crisp and can be shot well if you're expecting it. If it ain't broke don't fix it...

Let me clarify something: I have many rifles that can shoot three shot groups under an inch. But not every time and not as predictably as the four I mentioned, and not to exactly the same point of impact trip to trip, year in year out.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
...an extra half inch of benchrest accuracy is lost almost immediately when shooting in the field, from improvised positions, under time pressure...a rifle that will shoot into 1-1.5 inches is more than enough IF it has an excellent trigger...

It is precisely because there are so many other variables that there is no such thing as too much accuracy. A rifle that shoots 1.5 moa will do no better than 6 inches from a bench at 400 yards.

Same thing applies to wobbly holds. The more accurate rifle allows you more "wobble error."

True enough, but by the time a fella gives up an MOA or two for shooting from slung sitting, another for doping the wind wrong, and another for guessing 400 when it's actually 450, the intrinsic accuracy of the rifle becomes a progressively less significant advantage. Perhaps we can agree that errors induced by wobble and wind are a good excuse for waiting on closer shots.

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
...an extra half inch of benchrest accuracy is lost almost immediately when shooting in the field, from improvised positions, under time pressure...a rifle that will shoot into 1-1.5 inches is more than enough IF it has an excellent trigger...

It is precisely because there are so many other variables that there is no such thing as too much accuracy. A rifle that shoots 1.5 moa will do no better than 6 inches from a bench at 400 yards.

Same thing applies to wobbly holds. The more accurate rifle allows you more "wobble error."

True enough, but by the time a fella gives up an MOA or two for shooting from slung sitting, another for doping the wind wrong, and another for guessing 400 when it's actually 450, the intrinsic accuracy of the rifle becomes a progressively less significant advantage. Perhaps we can agree that errors induced by wobble and wind are a good excuse for waiting on closer shots.

I can shoot sub MOA sitting with a shooting sling. I will take as much accuracy as I can get.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
...an extra half inch of benchrest accuracy is lost almost immediately when shooting in the field, from improvised positions, under time pressure...a rifle that will shoot into 1-1.5 inches is more than enough IF it has an excellent trigger...

It is precisely because there are so many other variables that there is no such thing as too much accuracy. A rifle that shoots 1.5 moa will do no better than 6 inches from a bench at 400 yards.

Same thing applies to wobbly holds. The more accurate rifle allows you more "wobble error."

True enough, but by the time a fella gives up an MOA or two for shooting from slung sitting, another for doping the wind wrong, and another for guessing 400 when it's actually 450, the intrinsic accuracy of the rifle becomes a progressively less significant advantage.

I can shoot sub MOA sitting with a shooting sling. I will take as much accuracy as I can get.

I knew I should have said "the average fella."

To get a real good shot off the rifle has to fit right in the pocket of your shoulder then squeez that trigger until the rifle goes off.

Actually, if you're gonna play this silly-assed game correctly, you want to take your cold rifle out --with a fouled barrel--and fire one shot at the target. And it should hit exactly where you want it to. Then put the rifle up until tomorrow and then shoot another shot. (you boys whose rifle will shoot .25" all day every day will have a single ragged hole in the target) And do this for several days. (you boys with the .25" rifles will still only have a ragged hole in the target) If the rifle is indeed accurate, all's you're gonna need is one shot. Not three, and obviouly some folks can't stand the pressure of holding for five good shots so just shoot a series of one shot.
At the end of three days, you should have a neat little clover leaf; at the end of ten days, you should have a ragged hole in the target.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Actually, if you're gonna play this silly-assed game correctly, you want to take your cold rifle out --with a fouled barrel--and fire one shot at the target. And it should hit exactly where you want it to. Then put the rifle up until tomorrow and then shoot another shot. (you boys whose rifle will shoot .25" all day every day will have a single ragged hole in the target) And do this for several days. (you boys with the .25" rifles will still only have a ragged hole in the target) If the rifle is indeed accurate, all's you're gonna need is one shot. Not three, and obviouly some folks can't stand the pressure of holding for five good shots so just shoot a series of one shot.
At the end of three days, you should have a neat little clover leaf; at the end of ten days, you should have a ragged hole in the target.

Stillbeeman:

I do something similar, only I don't bother with the fouled barrel. A truly accurate gun will shoot to the same point impact. Trust me, I have done it enough. But I do put about 30 patches through to make sure the barrel has no solvent, etc.

But I don't shoot at conventional targets. I do out to the desert and shoot one shot a 750 yards (often 700) with my bipod sitting postion. Then I shoot one shot sitting wiwth a sling (no bipod) at 600. If the wind isblowing really hard I might shoot at 4 or 500 yards from the sit. I shoot only one shot unless I blow it and I want confirmation I missed the wind. But even then, the wind doesn't have to change much to move the bullet, so you need to read the conditions with each shot. Today I shot four shots at 700 (three were to test a different load). My first shot I clicked 6 for the wind (that is a drift of 10.5 inches) and called it perfect. I shot three more times, but favored one way or the other because the wind was slowing, increasing, etc. As it was evening, the wind died. I went to the 600 yard point. Here the terrain is a bit different. The wind was drifting left to right very slightly so I threw in 3 clicks windage, or 4.5 inches. I knew my bullet would drift some. It drifted about 6 inches total, impacting just to the right and about 2 inches low. I called it right so I packed up and went home. That is how I practice.

It is my way of simulating hunting positions. Shooting at these ranges is like a baseball player swinging a heavy bat when he is on the on deck circle. The 3 inch aiming circle I shoot at seems like a dinner plate at 400 yards after shooting at 7 or 600. And if you can hold in the wind at 600, you can do pretty good at the closer ranges.

I also shoot the gongs at the nearby rifle range at 200 yards. I spray them black so I can see my group. Then I shoot standing. sometimes I shoot with sticks.

Boddington has a good story in Rifle Shooter about a school he attended. What he was saying in essence is that game is shot at moderate ranges but with less than perfect holds, rests, etc. He should have added this line to his story: "I haven't met a long range hunter yet who has an impressive trophy room."

I would also say anyone who can't stand the pressure of shooting a five shot group probably collapses with fright when a big buck shows up. Get used to it. Try shooting competively; there is some real pressure.

Maybe in Heaven it is true that a peerfectly clean barrel shoots to the exact same point that a fouled barrel does but if that is true, then competitive shooters waste thousands and thousands of rounds each year fouling their barrels prior to shooting for score. And too, think of all the time that is wasted having a "warm up" before each relay.
Actually, for hunting purposes, the rifles I have owned would put the first shot from a clean barrel close enough but I have always cleaned my rifles throughly before hunting season, fired a couple of fouling shots to verify zero and then not touched them until after the season is over unless I fall in the creek or such.