Hey Jerry, I'm sure glad you are sticking around in this thread. It gives me a chance to ask a real Elk Killing Expert about your vast experience with using the 270Win on them.

How many have you Killed that meet all these requirements at the same time:
1. That only took one shot from your 270Win(mo other shooters Killing it for you)
2. That you recovered the same day you took that one shot
3. That was more than 900 pounds
4. That had legal Antlers

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Jerry, I'm sure glad you are sticking around in this thread. It gives me a chance to ask a real Elk Killing Expert about your vast experience with using the 270Win on them.

How many have you Killed that meet all these requirements at the same time:
1. That only took one shot from your 270Win(mo other shooters Killing it for you)
2. That you recovered the same day you took that one shot
3. That was more than 900 pounds
4. That had legal Antlers

Hotsh#t

Ye olde sum b####

Perhaps a better question for you would be:

1. How many elk have you killed???

2. How many elk have you "LOOKED AT"???

3. How many elk have you seen killed???

4. Do you still use those Blue Dot loads in your Model 70 for elk hunting???

You know, in a previous post, I mentioned I had experience with 2 dozen elk killed, and that by no means, makes me an expert! But it does say this about me, I have seen and shot enough elk, to have enough respect, not to bullshit anybody!

Hotcore, I am not an "elk killer". I am an elk hunter. As to your, ridiculous questions, now grab yourself by the balls, cause I know you aren't going to be able to handel my answer.

With any caliber, any of my hunting group has ever used, including the 270, also black powder guns, we never fired, MORE THAN 1 SHOT. We never have had to track an elk, as most were down within 25 yards, thats a long run for an elk shot with the 270, cause most are bang flop. My largest elk to date is, 920 lbs, a 6X6 non typical,that went 330 on the B&C scale.

Teancum, you got this dork pegged right. Thanks for your support, as I hope anyone who has NO elk hunting experience, will take our friend Hotcore lightly. All can see he is very green, when it comes to elk.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
You know, in a previous post, I mentioned I had experience with 2 dozen elk killed, and that by no means, makes me an expert! But it does say this about me, I have seen and shot enough elk, to have enough respect, not to bullshit anybody!

Hotcore, I am not an "elk killer". I am an elk hunter. As to your, ridiculous questions, now grab yourself by the balls, cause I know you aren't going to be able to handel my answer.

With any caliber, any of my hunting group has ever used, including the 270, also black powder guns, we never fired, MORE THAN 1 SHOT. We never have had to track an elk, as most were down within 25 yards, thats a long run for an elk shot with the 270, cause most are bang flop. My largest elk to date is, 920 lbs, a 6X6 non typical,that went 330 on the B&C scale.

Teancum, you got this dork pegged right. Thanks for your support, as I hope anyone who has NO elk hunting experience, will take our friend Hotcore lightly. All can see he is very green, when it comes to elk.

Jerry

Jerry

Congrats on taking 2 dozen elk. In most cases that would classify you at least qualified to talk about your success from the standpoint of EXPERIENCE.

I bet you that Hotsh#t doesn't answer the 4 questions that I proposed for him. Most likely the real reason is that he hasn't killed or seen any kills on elk; his only EXPERIENCE is that of an "ELK LOOKER". Does Boone and Crockett have a category in their record books for "ELK LOOKER"?

I like these forums for the ability to draw on the experience of others in areas that are of interest to me. Many responders only postulate their highly regarded OPINIONS of their achievements.

But I digress. We really should be more considerate of Hotsh#t as the only thing Glenn has left are his opinions. He has no EXPERIENCES on target with the subject so he view his opinions as the suppository of all knowledge for him. Pretty soon he'll be rocking back and forth in the chair mumbling about the "1,000's" of deer that he took with his Blue Dot Loads for his .25 ACP. We should have some understanding for his condition.......but nobody cares!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
You know, in a previous post, I mentioned I had experience with 2 dozen elk killed, and ...My largest elk to date is, 920 lbs, a 6X6 non typical,that went 330 on the B&C scale. ...

So you have a vast experience of " 1 " Elk Kill, which met the criteria, or worthy of comment. I'm sure you had to blast it a bunch of times with the Inadequate 270Win.

And I'll add in teenScums HUGE amount of Kills which would be " 0 ". So the combined total of jerry and his close personal buddy teenScum would be " 1 " Kill - worthy of mention.

Yes indeed, I can see why you are both such reknowned and Great Experts with the 270Win when Killing Elk(real Legends in your all's own minds).

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
You know, in a previous post, I mentioned I had experience with 2 dozen elk killed, and ...My largest elk to date is, 920 lbs, a 6X6 non typical,that went 330 on the B&C scale. ...

So you have a vast experience of " 1 " Elk Kill, which met the criteria, or worthy of comment. I'm sure you had to blast it a bunch of times with the Inadequate 270Win.

And I'll add in teenScums HUGE amount of Kills which would be " 0 ". So the combined total of jerry and his close personal buddy teenScum would be " 1 " Kill - worthy of mention.

Yes indeed, I can see why you are both such reknowned and Great Experts with the 270Win when Killing Elk(real Legends in your all's own minds).

Funny coming from you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
You know, in a previous post, I mentioned I had experience with 2 dozen elk killed, and ...My largest elk to date is, 920 lbs, a 6X6 non typical,that went 330 on the B&C scale. ...

So you have a vast experience of " 1 " Elk Kill, which met the criteria, or worthy of comment. I'm sure you had to blast it a bunch of times with the Inadequate 270Win.

And I'll add in teenScums HUGE amount of Kills which would be " 0 ". So the combined total of jerry and his close personal buddy teenScum would be " 1 " Kill - worthy of mention.

Yes indeed, I can see why you are both such reknowned and Great Experts with the 270Win when Killing Elk(real Legends in your all's own minds).

Hotsh#t, Ye olde butttshooter of "thousands of deer" ( actually I think that is one of the funnier ones )

Your reading comprehension is as dismal as your ability to stop lying. But I got to admit, each tall tail is getting funnier and pathetic also those on this forum are starting to understand that you are our "Resident Idiot".

I'll go slow for you now because of your educational background in the "Carolinas" ended up with a gross deficiency in reading. You did attend elementary school, right? Jerry's use of the word largest is a term of comparison. Are you still with me??? He did not state that he had only killed 1 elk as your lying indicates but rather recites 2 dozen. I know that you know that number is greater than all you fingers and toes but I think you can still do it.

My own EXPERIENCE is 9 elk killed with a rifle; 7 with a 270 and 2 with a 300 Win Mag and 7 with a bow. One of the bow kills is a Pope and Young bull. I've been beside the hunter when about another 5-7 where taken with a rifle (I know that's not "1,000", but unlike your lying numbers, these are the truth) and anoehr 6-8 taken with a bow.

The Distances varied from 12 feet with the bow to 400+ yards with the 300 Win Mag and all were taken with a single shot!!!!!! I must also add that none were taken with your favorite shot placement..... the butt shot.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my 4 questions and know that your lying ways will most likely cause you to chicken out. Your lies are exposed each time you post but please continue onward as they are hilarious and we all enjoy them.

Wishing you the very best.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Funny coming from you.

Good point chuckee, I really did give the Legends in their own minds too much credit. With the multiple shot Kill, that took it out of the criteria.

So, the combined total for jerry, the Legend in his own mind, teenScum, the resident board idiot and Liar, plus those which meet the same criteria from chuckee would be a WHOPPING Total of Goose Egg, Nada, Zero, Not-a-one, Zilch, " 0 " of worthwhile first-hand experience on Killing a memorable Elk.

Quite a set of Stooges.

You know Hotcore, I really feel sorry for you!! You have contributed nothing to this post, but inuendo and speculation, IMO not a thing of value. I have never seen a need to shot an elk more than once with any rifle. Guess you could say my friends and I can shoot!

Enough for me, it now borders on HORSE SHIT!!

Have a Good One Everyone

Jerry

no important difference between them, and everything else from 25-06 to 300 wizenmagin .. i might have said this a time or two before.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
no important difference between them, and everything else from 25-06 to 300 wizenmagin .. i might have said this a time or two before.

pretty much agree--

I have taken elk with a 257Bob (too small, I was told) and others up to a 378WM (too big, I was told.)

The big difference (for elk) as was stated earlier is the "easier" availability of heavier projectiles in .284.

(If the question had involved Africa, 7mm is the arbitrary "legal" minimum for plains game in some areas.)

'5002

I am going to give a couple of different answers to your question...

First if you have a GOOD 270, and think you need more power, it is a waste of $$$ to go to a 7mm Mag.

The 7MM Mag is a small step up in power over a 270 if you go to 175gr premium bullets.
But if you have a good 270, there is no reason to go to a 7mm Mag.

Since you mention elk, and you have a good 270, I would sight it in with a premium 150gr bullet....

And since you think you want a step up for elk [not a bad idea IMHO] I would get a 338 Win Mag.

Now I have never owned a 270 or a 338 Win Mag, most likely never will...

But I do recognize that they are two of the best calibres for hunting all game in NA.

N E450:

Not arguing, just trying to understand your point. What constitutes a GOOD 270 versus a non-good 270?

I've said this before, I do not believe in the "jack of all trades" concept in rifles as it implies a compromise. Besides, if it is not a question of finances, WTF who only wants one rifle?

I like a 270 Win for deer and a 300 Win for elk.

I personally have no use for either the 30-06 and 7mm Rem as for me/my purposes they are tweeners with the 7mm Rem having really no advantage over the 270.

Just curious, if 7mmMag offers no real advantage over 270win, then what real advantage does .300mag offer over 30/06...??

quote:

Just curious, if 7mmMag offers no real advantage over 270win, then what real advantage does .300mag offer over 30/06...?

220 grain heavy bullets at velocities that the 30-06 cannot safely achieve with that weight.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Just curious, if 7mmMag offers no real advantage over 270win, then what real advantage does .300mag offer over 30/06...??

Big advantage at 250+yds and on shots where penetration matters. (Real world, not keyboard-> use the least amount of gun for the worst possible shot.)

I wouldn't use either a 270 Win or 7mm Rem on elk. Ain't no difference on deer, Texas heart shot or bow to stern penetration would be the same. The only 277 bullet I've ever recovered froma deer (214#) was a shot dead on the brisket and recovered in the back ham.........'nuf for me.

Can't say I feel comfortable using the same analogy on 600# plus animals ie not the same penetration for the 30-06 on elk. Just MHO.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I've said this before, I do not believe in the "jack of all trades" concept in rifles as it implies a compromise. Besides, if it is not a question of finances, WTF who only wants one rifle?

I like a 270 Win for deer and a 300 Win for elk.

I personally have no use for either the 30-06 and 7mm Rem as for me/my purposes they are tweeners with the 7mm Rem having really no advantage over the 270.

I agree.

If you can afford it there is real wisdom in buying a specialty shooter for each critter/bird that you hunt. When you first start out there is that temptation ( or wife ) that says to buy a single rifle to do all. And it seems like it will do all..... but none great.

I found that to be true with shotguns. You need to get the gauge and gun that is the absolute best fit in your mind for the species hunted.

I've had a 30-06 that I inherited but sold it for the reason that it wasn't specific enough for the uses that I wanted.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Funny coming from you.

Good point chuckee, I really did give the Legends in their own minds too much credit. With the multiple shot Kill, that took it out of the criteria.

So, the combined total for jerry, the Legend in his own mind, teenScum, the resident board idiot and Liar, plus those which meet the same criteria from chuckee would be a WHOPPING Total of Goose Egg, Nada, Zero, Not-a-one, Zilch, " 0 " of worthwhile first-hand experience on Killing a memorable Elk.

Quite a set of Stooges.

You are insane.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Funny coming from you.

Good point chuckee, I really did give the Legends in their own minds too much credit. With the multiple shot Kill, that took it out of the criteria.

So, the combined total for jerry, the Legend in his own mind, teenScum, the resident board idiot and Liar, plus those which meet the same criteria from chuckee would be a WHOPPING Total of Goose Egg, Nada, Zero, Not-a-one, Zilch, " 0 " of worthwhile first-hand experience on Killing a memorable Elk.

Quite a set of Stooges.

You are insane.

Chuck

I really think you're being a bit harsh on my favorite hunting buddy!!!!

He just gets a little testy in between the pills. We just need to understand his problems!!!

Let's list some of those problems.............................................................wait second there's not enough room in this message!!!!!!!

Hey, let's watch those cheap shots on NC please. I've lived for 10 years and it really is a nice place. Curiously, I've watched elk in my home state of KY as well and I have a .270 to boot. Sounds like that makes me a certifiied expert as well.

If I was going to hunt elk with the .270 I'd probably use that new super performance ammo that Hornady has come out with. Sounds like pretty good stuff from what I have read. I think it would be more than adequate at any distance I would attempt to take a shot. I have no desire to shoot an animal at extreme range nor do I wish to shoot them with, what is it called, the TX heart shot or something? Regardless of the round I am going to wait for a broadside or reasonable quartering shot. If that means I don't fill my tag I am 100% comfortable with it.

That being said definitely need to buy a new rifle. I mean come on, who is really going to pass up an opportunity like this to get themselves a new rifle, right? I think these new short action mags in .338 would be pretty interesting to have and sounds like a great elk rifle. If Elk hutning means lots of walking a light rifle would be nice to have. I think I agree with the others, if I was going to get another rifle I'd go for something substantially different from what I have, not because the .270 won't do the job but becuase I would not want to have 2 rifles that are that close in performance characteristics. It would be more fun to something different.

First of all, if you have an excuse for a new rifle, get a new rifle! Second, I have known a few old timers who shot a lot of elk with a .270 and swear by it, and some who say the .300 WinMag is to small.

Will a .270 or 7MM work? Well yes, with good shot placement. One in the boiler room and he is going down. The thing is that a smaller calibar is less forgiving for mistakes.


For myself, my "someday" elk rifle is a 7mm Mag. I said "someday" as it is more of a Nebraska plains deer rifle, but one I am very comfortable shooting with. When I bought it, I just couldn't justify spending an extra $200 for a .338 Win Mag that would be over kill for most of the things I get to hunt on a regular basis. I will hopefully get to hunt an elk or two in my life, but living where I do that is an expensive prospect.

In short, talk with your guide, but take the gun you are most familar with. A .270 is very close to a 7mm in all respects.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

The guides to a man did not like 7 MM mags.

Being a bear guide in Northern Minnesota qualifies one to drink whiskey after sundown.....little else....

Well said.

BTW, for all the 7mm Rem bashers, I have logged one shot kills on kudu, gemsbok and zebra out to 350 yards with one 160 A Frame apiece.

Shot placement is everything. A big bull kudu weighs as much as any elk I've ever seen, and that ain't many because we aren't blessed with the beauties down here in the gunshine state, but I would not hesitate to hunt elk with the 7 using 160 A Frames or TSX's. Hell, Harry Selby's young daughter killed her only elephant with a 7x57. Ain't no flies on 7mm's.

Thought I'd keep this going a little bit longer. I was telling a buddy of mine, who likes and shoots the 7MM Remington Mag, about this discussion the other day. So I pulled out an old Hornady manual that has a very nice ballistic chart in the back. We took a 7mm Mag max load, according to that book was 3100fps with a 154 grain bullet, we then took a 270 Winchester load, 150 grain bullet @2900fps, they listed 3,000fps as max, but in my experience, in a 24" barrel I don't believe you can get there. The results @ 500yds, the 7Mag had 220 more foot pounds of energy,a total of 1440 foot pounds, and dropped 8" less than the 270, which had 1220 Foot Pounds, and dropped 53" to the 7Mag's 47". Sighted in @ 100yds.Not much difference, and if you are going to shoot an elk at that distance, with either, you better be abe to place your shot well.

What's you all's take on this.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Thought I'd keep this going a little bit longer.

What's you all's take on this.

Jerry

Physics keep it real. Frankly I never had much use for either the 270 or the 7mm Mag - too much blood shot meat. However, my preference is the 7 mag, which I now own one to test. I always figured the reason the 270 survived at all was because of the power O'conner had with words, which influenced many. A fine example of marketing, bought and paid for. I always figured he was the real deal, but sold his credentials too cheep. I suppose we all have a price.

I watched an outdoor/hunting show about a week ago. It was one of those that annoy me close to the most. Anything to do with TTH is the most. Anyhow, the show was skillfully presented well, and like matter of fact. The main guy has this demeanor that froths competence. Basically it's nothing more than an advertisment for the long range rifles, and advocates. Obviously the guy could stalk closer to his game, but instead he sets up at 800 - 1,000 yards, and shows the dialing in of the scope. Naturally it's a one or two shot kill, and the animal dies right there, like it's no big deal. Then they reveal it's a 7 mag with Berger 180gr bullets. I did the math, and it's ballistically like shooting a moose with a 30-30 at fifty yards.

The difference is the hype. I don't like hype or pretentiousness. IMO the 270's rep is mostly based on hype, (the 6.5x55 was suitable long before the 270) and the 7 mag deliveres, with a cost of a little more powder, if a guy is interested in 300yds + shots. But this hype thing easily goes too far, and IMO 500yds + is rediculous.

KB

I've been dragging around the same 7mm for a little over 30 years so I'm biased. It has accounted for 4 bull elk out to a little over 300 yards but it does best on big deer in my opinion, if I were buying an "elk only" gun I'd bump up to at least a 338 - my choice would proabably be a 340 Weatherby because anchoring an elk right there is desirable near the public / private border where I hunt.

A good bullet in a 270 should be fine if you don't want to buy another gun, shot placement is the big equalizer. I wouldn't take a small step up to 7mm if buying another ....and the sendero is way too heavy for me to drag around the mountains.

I must say this has been a lively post. Lots of differing opinions. I do agree that it is to close to a lateral move to go from .270 Win to 7 mag.
Thanks
Ken

I do not and will not own a big game rifle that is not appropriate for shooting Elk in heavy timber as that is where we usually get them here in BC.

I have 30 big game rifles at present and have had scores more, they range from a .267WM to a .458WM and I tend to use heavy for caliber controlled expansion bullets in all of them as we hunt several species at once. I prefer NPs and SAFs.

I have stood beside friends while they killed large bull Elk with a .270W and the 150 NP....a Grizzly, as well and several Moose. I would not hesitate to use my .270 P-64 Mod. 70 Fwts to hunt Elk as, with their synthetic stocks, they are lighter than most of my other rifles and I did so last season.....but, the one "hawg" of an Elk I found was in a " no shoot" zone...open this coming season, tho'!!!!......

I have killed Elk with my .338WM and do prefer it, but, I would not worry about a good shot with a .270Win. using good bullets.

I knew one older guy who had ONE rifle from when he quit "working for George" in 1945 until he died; he was a superb shot and his gun was a P-64 Std. .270Win. I bet he shot 40 Elk and as many Moose with that and several Grizzlies......."hands on" trumps theory, IMO.

Hello Ken

I sent you a P.M.

Thanks

Steve

When I first moved to Alaska, in the 80's, I became friends with an old timer, a real classy guy, who passed away several years ago. He grew up in Montana, but moved to Alaska in the 60's. I always liked to look at his gun rack and hear his stories. He had several pre64 70's in 270, and spoke nicely about J. O'Connor. He said that they were friends.

Anyway, the story he told that I liked the best related to the reasons he often hunted with a 338, and at the time I knew him, he carried his new Sako Handi rifle in 375. We shot it a bunch at the range. Short version of the story is that he said the biggest mistake he ever made while hunting was to shoot a brown bear with a 270. Said he used up all his bullets, was so rattled by the charge, he dropped the extra bullets from his pocket. He said that after it was over, he had to wait a while till his knees quit shaking before he could walk. He said he loved the Win pre 64 after that even more, now that he knew for sure it would fire with grass and dirt shoved in there along with the cartridge.

KB

Yeah not enough diff in the 270, 280 & 7mag to have one of each. Just swap the 140gr VLD out for a 150grNP or Swift, get inside 300yds, & go hunt elk. My 280 is my light elk rig. I prefer my 338-06 for elk in timber or to 300yds. Beyond that, I worry aobut bullet performance w/ most bullets.

quote:

Not arguing, just trying to understand your point. What constitutes a GOOD 270 versus a non-good 270?

Maybe like I had when I had two identical BRNO ZKK 600 rifles in 270 Winchester.

Identical except that one would shoot a full 40 feet per second faster with the same load as the other! Odd. But 100% true!

Accuracy wise both were the same shooting an inch or under at 100 yards. So I kept the one with the "faster" barrel.

Enfield:

Only 40fps difference! That's pretty good in my book. I have a couple rifles with 100fps difference. I don't care much though!

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Jerry, I'm sure glad you are sticking around in this thread. It gives me a chance to ask a real Elk Killing Expert about your vast experience with using the 270Win on them.

How many have you Killed that meet all these requirements at the same time:
1. That only took one shot from your 270Win(mo other shooters Killing it for you)
2. That you recovered the same day you took that one shot
3. That was more than 900 pounds
4. That had legal Antlers

Hotsh#t

Ye olde sum b####

Perhaps a better question for you would be:

1. How many elk have you killed???

2. How many elk have you "LOOKED AT"???

3. How many elk have you seen killed???

4. Do you still use those Blue Dot loads in your Model 70 for elk hunting???

Hotsh#t my dearest hunting buddy, aka the slayer of "thousands", Ye ole butt shooter, and the Blue dot Boy

You must be on vacation because you haven't answered any of MY questions on your elk hunting experience. That makes me wonder about your experience in the elk hunting area other than "LOOKIN".

Is it possible that you haven't taken ANY elk of ANY SIZE??? Please tell me this isn't so. For to do so would invalidate all your bullsh#t on elk hunting and disclose the liar that you are. Do you think it's possible that since you haven't kill ANY Elk of ANY SIZE that you could be fibbing on those thousands of deer kills?????? We both know we don't want that to happen. Perhaps you have misplaced your hunting log with the numerous elk kills in it. Pray tell what a tragedy that would be and I hope that isn't so.

Kindly note your experience in the elk hunting area, as requested, to support your theories that you are the suppository of all knowledge relating to elk hunting. Many of us on this board are waiting anxiously for the diarrhea of knowledge that would gush forth from such a revelation.

Respectfully yours.

How can anyone who

quote:

I'd guess I've shot more rounds through an M14 (many in competition) than you have shot Total Rounds in your entire life.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...121031131#7121031131

Find the time to hunt and kill thousands of deer?

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
He claims to have killed "many thousands" of deer,

Which is True.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...401038811#4401038811

There are only 52 weekends a year, if you are shooting in competition, then when does one find time to kill thousands of deer?

But I did learn something from this thread, there are Elk in Tennessee. About 300

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/elkmain.html

About 100 in North Carolina.

http://www.nationalparkstravel...s-national-park-5216

So how do you become an expert on Elk Hunting in North Carolina when

quote:

the elk had been protected from hunters through their listing as a "Special Concern" species by North Carolina wildlife officials.

quote:

I have a Savage 114 in .270 Win. It shoots well. I have worked up really good loads with Berger 140gr vlds and 52 gr of RL 22. about 3/4 moa at 3025fps avg.
Now...I am considering a 7mm mag Remington Sendero first version. (used gun)
I mostly hunt white tail but I do intend to go elk hunting next season.
Should I stay with what I have or move to 7 mag???
Suggestions...comments?? .02 worth??

Back to the original post.
Here is my two cents.

I have shot/witnessed elk being killed with:
243
270 win
7 mag
30-06
300 win mag
300 wsm
338-06
338 win mag
35 Whelen
375 H&H

I am a big 270 Win fan, but I usually grab a 338-06 when it's time for elk. But then I have have that option.

So, if you want something bigger than a 270 for elk, my suggestion is go to at least a 338 caliber or just load up premium bullets for your 270. I am partial to TSX's and Nosler Partition's myself.

But any of 30 caliber's would work too, 30-06, 300 WSM, 300 Win Mag. Another great choice would be a 9.3x62.