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I've notice more and more 6.5 Creedmores at shooting ranges. I wonder if we are at the beginning of a new trend away from the super, duper magnums? Perhaps people are beginning to realize that having an extra 300 fps in the medium bores is not really that useful from a practical standpoint? There is not many big game animals in North America that really needs the extra oomph of a .300 RUM or some other hard kicking, caliber. Anyone else notice this? BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | ||
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I think a lot of the attraction with the 6.5 is that for PRC and other matches where it is important to see your impact, it has a distinct advantage. And to that you can't shoot a big recoiling round much in a match and I can certainly see why it is popular. Other factors might be barrel life; if you shoot 40 rounds in a match, a caliber with a bbl life of 1000 rounds isn't going to last long. But at the end the day, the most accurate, highest BC, fastest bullet is the one most easiest to connect at LR. For general big game hunting, it is still tough to beat a .30-06 even though I am not a big fan. I see the interest in 6.5s mostly as a target round, not a general purpose hunting round, but I might be missing something. | |||
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I'm in the wrong thread here. I thought medium bore would be somewhere around 350 and up. I carry 45's and a 50 GI sometimes. I shoot 45-70, 458 SOCOM, and 458 American rifles. Used to have a couple of 458 Win Mags. My deer rifle in BP season is a 58 percussion. Both my doubles are 9.3s. I read a lot of African hunting books and lurk in the African Hunting forums. 6.5 seem to be a small bore. You guys aren't wrong it is just my perception. Be Well. Packy | |||
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The forum guidelines for medium bore are 25 - .366 Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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That's kind of an odd sentiment considering that the whole drive of the 6.5 is to fire a bullet faster, so as to shoot flatter...... I think its more just flashy marketing, and new, which means better in todays market. And most shooters don't shoot enough to see the downside to the 6.5, though I haven't seen many hunting rifles in 6.5 creedmore showing up where I am. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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Read Pondoro Taylor | |||
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On any given day at my range, you'll see me with at least one of my 6.5 caliber rifles. (I shoot at least once per week come hell or high water) Chances are that on any given day in the field, you'll find me with something akin to fast, high-BC .284-.338. The mild 6.5's are great target calibers and it takes the pressure off the wear and tear on the big gun's barrels. I have used my Creedmoor on deer but my 6.5 x 280 AI is simply more of the better! Zeke | |||
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I agree with Buff, I think the reality of the 6.5 Creedmore is that the average shooter will not get beat-up by it and it is accurate and kills well to boot. Kind of what the 6.5's have been doing for the last 120 years, but now you can be "trendy" and "cutting edge" by using the Creedmore.The plus might be that there could be less wounded animals due to macho types that use magnums that make them flinch. Doesn't seem to be a downside to me, but that is just my opinion. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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I look at the 6.5 Creedmoor as a "modern day 257 Roberts". But with heavier bullets it beats out the Roberts (or Improved form) on heavier game, with more bullet choices. I know "I" could hunt the rest of my life with a Roberts-25-06 and the right bullet, but Joe Average is neither a handloader nor shoots much game ( varmints to moose) so its a good one for Range Commandos, ha. I think its just "better" ( if that exists) on deer and up than the 6mms, except that 240W, its in the 25-06 range. | |||
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I have to admit that I too consider "Medium" to start at .323 to .375, but OK. | |||
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I hope so. I wonder how many potential hunters were driven away from the sport by the "bigger is better" mantra pushed by the gun magazines and the gun makers following a bad long-term strategy. You could count on reviews saying the new magnum (whatever it was) was "better" than whatever the base caliber was because it was more powerful, ignoring the fact that few game animals have grown kevlar skin recently. Put one of those newbies behind a magnum for a first range sight-in and you could pretty much guarantee two things. First, he/she would develop a massive flinch, and second, that rifle would be propped behind the closet door, never to venture out again. You still see see residue of this viewpoint when someone writes that these perfectly adequate cartridges "kill all out of proportion to their power." Well, right, but then they always did. | |||
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Man, my sentiments exactly. I don't shoot a 6.5 but I own several LR rigs from .284 to .338 just for the point you make: I don't want to wear any single one out too fast, so I rotate through them. | |||
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AK it says .270 to .366 on the heading. Be Well. Packy | |||
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Besides the (now) ubiquitous 6.5s, I am also seeing more rifles in 7mm-08, .44 Mag, and similar calibers. Then again maybe everyone already has the fast 7mm and 30 cals so these are just something different to play with? BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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I don't see many at the range that I go to but for the average once a year hunter they are probably a good thing. Less recoil means a better chance at actually hitting something when it counts. I've had a 6.5x55 for many years so I have no reason to go to the Creedmore since its just the same thing in a different package. I have to laugh though reading some of the hype that surrounds the Creedmore. But the 6.5's make great deer rifles and that's what most people shoot. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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6.5 creedmoor is the number 1 selling rifle at my gunsmith. It is a great deer round and just as good as 308/30/06 for majority of deer hunters. Few inaccurate 6.5 rifles out there. Great value purchases in $400-$800 range for new guns. Ammo at academy Walmart ect at .75-1 a round. What is not to like. Mike | |||
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The Creedmore is no better than a 250-3000 or a 257 Robts and not my idea of a elk rifle..Elk rifles start with the 30-06 and the 270 is border line but on the correct side of the border....Its trendy in some circles to see how small a caliber can kill and elk, that's a 22 L.R. IMO, but its not desirable on a fair chase hunt..Ive been that route killed elk and deer with a 25-35, 30-30, 250-3000, and at 200 yards they kill well on broadside shots..Whatever I hunt these days I want enough penetration to penetrate a full body length with an expanding bullet, at least on this continent..Just my opine. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Right on! My thoughts exactly. It’s all marketing. The Swede or 260 Rem just don’t have the “bling” associated with the Creedmore. Shoot Safe, Mike NRA Endowment Member | |||
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Agreed. | |||
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For elk, especially for shots longer than 150yds, I would go with something at least as potent as a .270. I've killed elk with both a .270 and a 7mm Weatherby Magnum and never have noticed much difference in performance. Although there are some experts that kill a lot of elk with the .243, they usually shoot close and accurate. Interestingly, in Sweden, many elk (moose to us) are killed with the 6.5 x 55. It is effective there, because of close range shots and accurate shot placement. I understand they try to use heavy-for-caliber bullets, but the fact remains they kill a lot of moose with the 6.5. For deer, shot at average ranges, the lighter calibers are perfect, provided the right bullet is used. I once fired a 154 gr PSP in 7mm Wby that zipped right through a small mule deer. I was about 60 yds away and the fast stepping bullet never had a chance to open. Using the same cartridge/rifle, I shot another mule deer at about 250 yds away. The bullet exit hole looked like a grenade had went off. So matching the cartridge to the range is very important IMO. Making 400 yd shots in bean fields, might be cause for using a hotter cartridge, but I would think that is the exception. JMO, of course. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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In theory, the .280 Rem might just be the perfect North American big game cartridge. There's magic in .284 caliber bullets. In reality, there ain't sufficient performance differential of the .280 Rem & .270 Win to declare one to be superior. In reality, mega-magnums can cause a huge dose of buyer's remorse. The .300 Win Mag is a fabulous cartridge. However, I've seen shooters call it a day after firing a dozen or so .300 Win Mag rounds outta a sporter on a bench. Reality is the .300 Win Mag will kill North American big game just as dead as the '06. Bench shooting creates confidence. Flinching destroys confidence. Confidence kills big game. Then there's the practical side of big game hunting. I've learned the painful way that I do not like carrying heavy rifles all over God's Rocky Mountain creation. I'll take a 22" barreled .270 Win and close distance every single time. I could be in Rocky Mountain nirvana with a lightweight .308 Win carbine. I'm sure I'd know nirvana with a 7x57 carbine. But I ain't seen many in the preowned market. Seems that those who knew what they were doing when 7x57 carbines were available ain't parting with 'em. Every season, North America's largest big game become table fare at the invites of arrow separation from strings at about 300 FPS. From my exposure, I'd opine that the 7MM Rem Mag is the biggest magnum that most hunters can shoot w/o developing bad habits. The upside is the preowned market is awash with mega-magnums. If one is looking for a .300 RUM, it's a buyer's market. | |||
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HUH? No better? If the 250 Sav had a more modern faster twist and could shoot a high BC 140 grain bullet at 2900 fps or a 130 grainer at 3000, it then would be as good as the 6.5Creedmoor....but alas, it cannot do more than about 2700 fps with a 120 grain projectile, albeit a fine round for close work on small deer. I too think the 6.5's are fine for deer but I personally want well more for elk. On that we agree! And NO, I don't wear a "flatty" and I'm a senior too. I just like stuff if it works better. At the end of the day, it boils down to "the nut behind the bolt" that gets the job done but why not take advantage of modern twists and high BC bullets? Zeke | |||
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As I understand it, the 6.5 Creedmore just filled a logical gap between the.243 (6mm-08) and the 7mm-08. For all practical purposes it is a 6.5-08. It may have been marketed for target shooting, but there is no ballistic reason that makes it a target round only. I’ve seen coyote hunters using the 6.5 Creedmoor and it would make an excellent prairie goat rifle with the right bullets. And rather than “whining and moaning”, the discussion is about whether there is a trend towards moving away from the ultra fast magnums to more standard, milder cartridges. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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BH63, Didn't you know when 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser and a 6.5 Creedmoor both launch a 142 grain Accubond LR at 2725 fps which at 600 yards will be travelling 1992 fps and delivering ~1250 ft lbs, that only the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser will kill the following game: Deer Pronghorn Feral Pigs Wharthogs Blesbok Impala Springbok or any other size medium game anywhere else on earth. That's because the Creedmoor was designed as a target round.  I would add that both the Creedmoor and the Swede would be travelling ~ 1775 fps (min impact velocity for AB LR is 1300 fps) and delivering right near 1000 ft lbs of energy at 800 yards. But maybe 800 yards is not considered long range by some. See Lesson # 3 below. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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The 6.5mm anything is not a Medium bore by any definition, but that is irrelevant. The issue is already here.... Facts are, that the 6.5 bores have been around since at least 1891 and there are at least a dozen of them. The Creedmoor is just a recent reincarnation of some of the past ones, most notably the Swedish one, as MD points out. Rifle companies have to bring out new versions of old stuff in order to boost sales. After all, who wants a cartridge invented in the 19th century when you can have the same thing invented in the 21st. It's called Marketing. The 6.5 never really caught on in the US for two reasons; it was a foreign, metric bore size, which Americans didn't understand, and it we already had the 270, a cartridge that never appealed to me in the least. And as others have said, it is one of the top Moose rounds in Sweden. It is popular because it is a very efficient bore size, has sufficient bullet weight and very high SD, and most of them have low recoil. I barrel several 6.5 Creeds on Hunting Rifles each year, second only to the 275 Rigby/7x57. Very close second. To state that it is a target cartridge only is simply not the case. Facts are facts no matter how one tries to interpret them. | |||
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^ The .270 never appealed to you in the least? You are beyond salvation! Mr. Jack O has proven the versatility of that great caliber to all but those in total denial. Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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Ha, sadly, no. I did read both Elmer and Jack, in the way back, like we all did. Jack's rifles seemed to be toys while Elmer's were, well, impressive. The only 270s I have owned were ones that I used the barrels as tent stakes, and I can truthfully say I have never fired one, and never will.....too big for small stuff and too small for big stuff. Maybe ok for small deer.......(Thanks Elmer!) | |||
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To each his own! However, according to JOC’s “The Hunting Rifle”, he states he has killed 36 different big game species with the .270 including: 18 elk, 17 caribou, 12 moose, 30 sheep, an eland, a zebra, more than a dozen black bears, and 2 grizzlies; and of course, dozens of deer. Not a bad resume for such a meek little cartridge. He also mentions a game warden, the late Hosea Sarber up in Petersburg, Alaska who has killed a number of Brown bears with a .270. BTW In this book he classifies small bores as less than .32 caliber, medium bores as .32 to .40 caliber, and anything larger than .40 caliber as big bores. Funny how things change over time. Good hunting and shooting to all. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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I will say one thing about the 6.5 creedmoor. It is the absolute perfect round for a light weight single shot. My 6.5 creedmoor blaser k95 is a delight to shoot. I have been able to buy at least 8 different types of match ammo in 6.5 and at least 8 different types of hunting ammo. All at academy, Walmart and my local gun shop. Mike | |||
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I guess I'm the odd one... I never thought magnums killed better than the standard chamberings in any bore diameter. I just figured a magnum cut down your range errors and wind drift- if the bullets were otherwise the same. The only 6.5 I've hunted with is a .26 Nosler. Long point blank range, great open country deer/pronghorn gun, but too heavy and long for sheep or goats in the mountains. I've got a 6.5 Swede, a 6.5 carcano, a 6.5 RM, a .264 Win, and the .26 Nosler. I don't see a reason to get a creed... but past evidence indicates I will at some time- probably when it is no longer popular. | |||
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"Didn't you know when 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser and a 6.5 Creedmoor both launch a 142 grain Accubond LR at 2725 fps which at 600 yards will be travelling 1992 fps and delivering ~1250 ft lbs, that only the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser will kill the following game:" Good my 6,5*55 are not going to stop working. A coffin nail in the stock might put some death in your 6,5 credmores. I havn`t noticed any difference on moose between my 6,5*55 and my .308w, to be a real difference you need to go up to 6,3-62 or 338wm it might give 10y less running distance after the shot seldom needed in Sweden. | |||
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Not odd, but arguably a minority here. When I spend money to hunt in some unfamiliar locale, there are topographical features to which I'm not accustomed. Out back I know exactly how far various markers sit. Given a hit in the same place a .308 is as lethal as a .300. But "hit in the same place" depends on my range estimation. Which means .300s are better in my hands. Well, except out back. Suppose I could use a range finder. Great. One more item to buy and lug. And there's still the wind. | |||
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^ No doubt the heavier bullet at a fast speed helps a little at the long shots. But how much further does it stretch your point blank range? Another 30 yards? And how many shooters are good enough shots, to include range estimation, to make high percentage kills at 400 yds? IMO the extra energy and slightly better trajectories of the fast magnums are valuable only in the hands of experts who regularly shoot at those distances and have an accurate range finder. According to studies, the most experienced long range shooters are lucky to get within 10% on range estimation. At 400 yds that’s being off by 40 yds. Look at the ballistic drop at those distances and tell me your not depending on a great deal of luck to get a clean kill at those yardages. For point of aim hunters, not using a range finder, 300 yards should be considered a maximum range for clean shot placement at deer sized game. Rifles in the 308/06 class are plenty enough for those type shots. For elk at long range or grizz at any range, I would prefer more whompan, but I am conservative that way. But whatever works for you (as long as it works)! BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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Mike, Your post reminds me of a lady I used to work with. She was the VP of Technical Operations and one morning she was in a fluster because her Volvo spun out in the snow. “It’s a Volvo!”, she exclaimed. She went to her mechanic and he solved the problem by putting ‘Volvo’ tires on the car. Apparently this lady never took physics in college. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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We use studded tires on our Volvos. Wide tires are popular now which are bad for driving in snow, but if they sell who cares. | |||
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I'll take it. 30 yds. Whatever. Arguing more drop and wind drift is better, or as good, is a non-starter. No, I'm not an "expert" - whatever that means. But yes, I shoot a .300 every bit as accurately - benched or field positions - as a .308......or that real "expert's" gun, the .243. (just kidding) | |||
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A 220 ELD at 2975 has about 60-70 yards over a 140 Berger 6.5 at 2775; a 195 Berger 7mm at 2975 has a huge advantage over both. I gong shoot a lot at 500 yards with a 300 RUM, .338 Lapua, 28 Nosler, and .308. Friday I shot a RUM, 28N, and .308. I know where to hold with the .308 but there is significantly less wind hold off with the other cartridges. I would conclude anyone who disagrees hasn't shot much at 500 in windy conditions. | |||
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A friend of mine wins competitions shooting a .300 RUM, and a .338 Edge. He shoots out to 1,200 yards, but sometimes from 400 to 800 yards. He does have a 6.5 LRP, but prefers the other two because the heavier bullets buck the wind better. At least according to him. On another subject: a thing I have noticed when talking about the 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 LRP, and other 6.5s is tha a lot of people are so enamored with the name of the cartridge, in this case "Credmoor, LPR," or whatever, that they forget that both use the exact same 6.5 bullets. The only difference that exists is speed. Maybe they don't know that a .264 also is a 6.5MM? | |||
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I shot my 28 Nolser at 800 and 1190 yesterday; at 1190 the wind was drifting to the left very sightly. Held 1 MOA to the right (zeroed at 500 so spin drift was reduced) and hit 5.5 inches left and 5.5 inches low. I wouldn't even think of doing that with a .308. BTW, I love the Edge as well; have two of them. | |||
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Shooting these distances 900-1100 yards is alien to me. I am stuck at the 300 yard range and that seems like the end of the world at times. Impressive shooting that far out. Mike | |||
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