My Stevens 200 is the most accurate gun I own, better than 2 700's and a model 7. Neither of those are slouches. I just hope my LRPV shoots as well. I have nothing against premiums, I actually use interbonds, but how did anyone kill anything before Premium bullets were invented? FYI match bullets are cup and core.

olarmy
one of us

Posted 13 February 2009 01:09 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
I'm rarely amused by people who talk down "premium bullets" by saying they are a waste.

I'm also never disappointed by their obvious lack of cognitive function, because by and large I EXPECT my fellow man to have the IQ of a soccerball. AD


So why do you spend/waste your time and superior intellect having discourse with us morons with soccer ball IQ's?


Perhaps he was addressing a mirror while typing his dribble !.



To the Question at hand why a 7 Rem Mag because 100-180 grain versatility Wild too Mild loading

varmint too Elk Moose all N A Game except Grizzly . Reaches out and does the job .

Bullet and powder are some what Rifle dependent as all Rifles tend to be . I personally prefer

Nosler and Barnes bullets for Hunting . That's not to say there is anything wrong with Sierra or

Hornady or anyone else's bullets . Sierra and Hornady punch paper very accurately .

Everybody's got a story , yet very few have no excuses !. Bring enough gun too the Hunt an you

won't either !.

Enjoying the posted replies! LMAO!

The pen might be mightier than the premium bullet!

I have taken over 50 deer with a 7mag.I always used 140 or 160gr sierra gks.I have NEVER recovered a bullet from an animal.I shot my first buck this year with a 140gr AB.Didnt come close to going through.Shot several deer with my 257stw with 110 ABs.They did nothing that the 100gr BTs cant do.I will NOT spend the extra money again.IMO You might give that 257stw a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:

I'm rarely amused by people who talk down "premium bullets" by saying they are a waste.

Unless one is using a public library computer, the fact that someone owns a computer to post on this forum means they can afford $15.00 extra for a premium box of bullets.

Quite frankly, I don't shoot lots because I can't afford it. I consider archery a much cheaper option if people want a hobby and shoot lots.

quote:

Originally posted by Moorepower:
My Stevens 200 is the most accurate gun I own

It is the only rifle I own and the only one I will ever own.

quote:

I have nothing against premiums, I actually use interbonds, but how did anyone kill anything before Premium bullets were invented? FYI match bullets are cup and core.

Read a book by Jack O'Connor last night and he makes mention a few times using magnum rounds and blowing saucer size holes in animals.

I don't understand why anyone would want to blow a saucer size hole in an animal and waste a bunch of meat these days when a good preminum bullet with perfect, controlled expansion will result in a half-dollar sized exit hole, every time. That means completely through, be it deer or moose.

If you shoot them where your supposed to, and being an archery guy cory you know where that is, saucer sized holes are fun!

I once ate a primal caveman diet of raw meat, raw eggs and raw fat for about 5 years. So I don't have a problem with seeing some blood and used to eat lots!

I do have to admit, though, the less destructive gore I see when I walk up to an animal, the better. For me, there seems to be a big difference between seeing a dead animals natural guts and internal organs intact and untouched vs. mangled and exploded all over the place. Can't explain why but just my preferance.

Having a couple nice conservative holes on each side of the boiler room makes me happy. I open the animal up and see a couple holes in the lungs and pour out some blood. Don't feel like I am performing an autopsy.

quote:

Originally posted by Henry Hoover:
I have taken over 50 deer with a 7mag.I always used 140 or 160gr sierra gks.I have NEVER recovered a bullet from an animal.I shot my first buck this year with a 140gr AB.Didnt come close to going through.Shot several deer with my 257stw with 110 ABs.They did nothing that the 100gr BTs cant do.I will NOT spend the extra money again.IMO You might give that 257stw a thought.

With all due respect, but the Nosler Accubond pushed at 3300 fps is going to do exactly like describe. Nosler Accubonds are accurate and offer decent weight retention but they are not in the same category as the Barnes TSX/TTSX. The Accubond is still a lead core bonded bullet. Naturally 3300 fps is going to open it up.

Try the Barnes TTSX product and you will change your mind.

quote:

With all due respect, but the Nosler Accubond pushed at 3300 fps is going to do exactly like describe. Nosler Accubonds are accurate and offer decent weight retention but they are not in the same category as the Barnes TSX/TTSX. The Accubond is still a lead core bonded bullet. Naturally 3300 fps is going to open it up.

I love the Accubond as well. I also want to just load the most accurate load for my gun and stick with it. Sometimes the most accurate load is not a premium bullet.

quote:

I do have to admit, though, the less destructive gore I see when I walk up to an animal, the better. For me, there seems to be a big difference between seeing a dead animals natural guts and internal organs intact and untouched vs. mangled and exploded all over the place. Can't explain why but just my preferance.

Not only do I kill my own game, I process my own game meat. Seeing the inside of an animal, parting out and cleaning up the silver skin on each muscle, and grinding all the parts that need to be ground is part of the game.

When you create "saucer sized holes" it usually is more humane in dispatching the critter. I've shot mule deer with Partitions that just put pencil sized holes for entrance AND exit wounds and seen them suffer. I'm not a fan.

A good 'ole soft point seems to shoot more accurately and kill more humanely (sp?)

What I regard as "Soccer ball IQ" is that many people offer contradictory arguements and expect us to respect their nonsensical opinion.

I was BLASTED by several such members a couple of years ago for my belief that a 100gr in a 25-06 was adequate for deer when I said that you only need 120's to completely defeat the entire purpose of having created the 25-06 in the first place.

The rediculous arguements I got starting with "you need exit holes" and ending just short of "they'll bounce off"
Funny I NEVER recovered a 100gr from my 25-06
even put one diagonally through a deer...

Ditto for a lot of other bullets that are lighter than you card carrying members of the Heavy Bullet Mafia consistantly claim are "necissary"

It's funny in the past I had a guy claiming that he thought a 257wby was fine for elk in one post and that a 140gr was grossly inadequate in a 7mmMag post all in the same topic.


I don't like seeing pointless meat destruction either.
Frankly I could care less if an animal has antlers or not, provided it meets some arbitrary minimum to be legal.

what I care about is having the main ingredient for veinson medallions, venison stew, venison chili... (I think you'll see a pattern here) Antlers aren't edible.

But what I hate MORE is a blood spray, blood trail and a deer that has crossed onto private property where I can't follow.

Tracking? I haven't lost one yet, but I did voluntarily give one up because it moved just far enough that a junior hnter shot it while it was staggering to a stop.
I shared a look, shrug and a smile with his father and he gave an appreciative smile in return.

It was one of the most generous things I've ever done.
Not sure I would've done it if there hadn't already been
two fresh deer in my freezer already.

I'll repeat my question, Allan.

Why would a guy of your intellect, waste so much of his time having discourse with "soccer balls" like us? Why not find a forum more fitting with your IQ (and social skills).

Maybe Google "Menza gun forum".

Hey Olarmy,

Is Allan the "VarmintGuy", related to VarmintGuy, or a buddy of his?

I'm pretty new here, can you bring me up to speed?

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
I'm rarely amused by people who talk down "premium bullets" by saying they are a waste.

I'm also never disappointed by their obvious lack of cognitive function, because by and large I EXPECT my fellow man to have the IQ of a soccerball.

What does amuse me a little is the guy who goes out and buys a $800 rifle then sinks another $1200 worth of custom gunsmithing into it THEN because it won't shoot the particular CHEAP AS DIRT 160gr bullet he wants to shoot he gets rid of it.


what's worse is thhe guy with the $2500 Blaser rifle
and the Swaro scope who's saying premium bullets are a waste.

If they're so worried about waste why didn't they buy a stevens 200?


AD

This is hilarious considering that Sierra's "lowly" cup and core bullets have set the accuracy standards for accuracy in all match shooting calibers at all distances for more than 40 years.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Funny posts guys.

Thanks for the input on the 7 Mag.

As for the premium bullets, that's a debate for another thread. I shoot both. I like the Accubonds in my .300 win mag but I bet just a good Sierra King or Hornady SST would probably be just as good.

Example:
The mule deer I killed this last season with my .300 win mag was shot a close range with a 180 gr Accubond. The deer was quartering away hard. The shot couldn't have been over 25 yards. The bullet entered the left side rib cage taking out 3 to 4 ribs and then just exploded inside. I recovered some pieces of jacket. The exploded pieces tried to exit up front, just forward of the right shoulder, kinda the front chest area. Looked like it was shot with a shotgun almost up front but not that many holes. Maybe 5 to 10 schrapnel holes. With the Accubond, I was expecting better weight retention, even at that range.

I also was expecting to have him DRT. Instead, when I fired and looked up, he kicked like a bronco rearward and took off running. I was stunned. He went about 75 yards and piled up. He was a tough, strong buck.

I bet just a regular bullet would have done just as well. And the fact is at longer ranges, you want a bullet that will expand at the lower velocities at those ranges and the regular bullets are better at that.

I know, I'm a pot-stirrer...........

If you don't want bullet blow up, try a Swift A Frame. They may a bit tough for deer, depending on where you hit it. They retain 95/99% of their weight. They work wonders on African game in the 7mm Rem. That's the 160 grainers I'm talking about, and I would imagine they work well on elk and moose, as well.

Let me start by saying that my .270 loves A-Frames; lots of velocity & great accurracy out of the 150 gr.

I punched a spike bull moose through the shoulders last fall. The bullet broke both shoulders and probably the spine, too. I recovered the bullet under the hide and it was picture perfect. I'm guessing impact velocity was 2400-2500 fps.

I had to put a finishing shot into the moose, though, which was from about 20 yards, through the neck. This bullet did break the spine. The rear core popped through the side of the jacket (out of the "top" of the bottom half, if you can picture it).

The front core mushroomed as expected, and most of its lead was smeared away.

Muzzle velocity is around 3,000 fps.

friar

Let's get back to the 7 mag.........

You can never go wrong with a 160 grn. Partition on top of IMR 7828.

Huh? I though a .270 was a 7 mag!

Thanks for the respect.Not enough around these days.I really for the life of me do not understand why people think they need a PREMIUM bullet for deer.ANY bullet 100gr up in ANY caliber is enough for ANY deer.Someone else here said it very plainly.How did we ever manage to take game without preimiums.
20.00 a hundred for me.jmo

Where premium bullets shine is when you have your pet load of a 140gr bullet that's skipping along just short of 3400fps and you're all set up for that 400yard shot then some damned deer spoils your plans by trotting right up to you and stops no more than 25yards away.

The premium bullet won't simply explode on contact like a varmint bullet "bomb"...

Those Sierra game king WILL likely blow up.

The very first 30-06 bullets I ever bought were Sierra game Kings they were accurate as could reasonably be expected from a 30-06 built as a hunting rifle, but I quickly learned to use them up on paper instead of deer.

I pay that slight extra money for "premium" bullets to get consistant performance.

I know what I'm getting when I buy them.

Buying something else.... ?

With the bullets I use, either Barnes or Nosler for hunting bullets I know that they are going to do what they are supposed to do.

I specifically DO NOT use Noslers for varmint work even though my rifles shoot them well, because where I shoot the property owner takes a dim view of plucking bullet bases out of his livestock... he wants those Chucks DEAD but paying for Vet visits....



AD

quote:

Allan DeGroot
one of us
Posted 17 February 2009 13:42 Hide Post
Where premium bullets shine is when you have your pet load of a 140gr bullet that's skipping along just short of 3400fps and you're all set up for that 400yard shot then some damned deer spoils your plans by trotting right up to you and stops no more than 25yards away.

If you read my post, that's exactly what happened but the "premium bullet" BLEW UP:

quote:

Example:
The mule deer I killed this last season with my .300 win mag was shot a close range with a 180 gr Accubond. The deer was quartering away hard. The shot couldn't have been over 25 yards. The bullet entered the left side rib cage taking out 3 to 4 ribs and then just exploded inside. I recovered some pieces of jacket. The exploded pieces tried to exit up front, just forward of the right shoulder, kinda the front chest area. Looked like it was shot with a shotgun almost up front but not that many holes. Maybe 5 to 10 schrapnel holes. With the Accubond, I was expecting better weight retention, even at that range.

The largest WT. deer I have ever taken weighed 187 lbs.dressed.I shot him at 17yds with a 7mag with a 140gr sierra gk.I destroyed both shoulders and believe it or not that cheap bullet came out.His day was spoiled much worse than mine.Until I tried to drag him.Now Im not saying premiums are not needed for larger game.But not on deer.The only place PREMIUMS shine IMO is under a bright light.

In my opinion the AB should not be classified as a premium bullet except past 250 yards or under 2800 fps.
Barnes, trophy bonded, partition either Nosler or Swift and perhaps the scirroco are the ones that I would consider to be the premiums, and for good reason.
There is also what I consider to be the most under rated bullet of them all , the speer grand slam.
These are the go to bullets for me when I want to feel secure in my choice of bullet with rifles that shoot over 3000, or tougher game.

But 25 yards with a 300 WM is going to test a bullet to the max, you would not have been dissapointed with a barnes I assure you.

10-4 Bucko,

I realize that the Accubond is not constructed as well as the Barnes solid stuff or the partitioned bullets, but still..........

It was going 3100 fps and hit a lot of ribs and, like I said, I would have hoped it to stay together. For deer, a "premium" is not necessary.

My point is that for the price difference, I should be shooting a soft point and so should everybody else on the planet.

For really big, tough game (elk, oryx, bear, African stuff) I can see the need for the premiums..........

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
In my opinion the AB should not be classified as a premium bullet except past 250 yards or under 2800 fps.

hmmm...my experience with Accubonds is limited but so far, very positive. It consists of 5 deer taken this year with a 130gr AB from a 270WSM at about 3250. All five bullets hit bone, all exited. All five deer went straight down. Ranges from 50yds to 285yds. They seem to me to perform just about like my fav 125gr Partitions from a 264WM

Oh, BTW, I agree that premiums are not needed for deer...unless a magnum is used at short range. Guess that puts my IQ in the soccer ball league according to AD, so take my opinion FWIW

Geez!!! A legitimate question on the 7Mag. has deteriorated into a pissin' contest over what bullet is best to kill a lil' ol' whitetail deer. For me, and for the record it's Partitions or, better yet, North Forks forever.
Good grief, you children have an awful lotta free time on yer hands.
JMHO Bear in Fairbanks

Glad you joined the pissin' contest!

BY DEFINITION:

ANY time spent here is "free time"

I think a 300mag at 25yards from is like using an anti-tank weapon on a deer.
a 30-30 can "make a mess" at 25yards.


a partition still would have "blown up" (atleast the front section) and probably would made a hell of a mess, but the back section would have exited.

AD

quote]I think a 300mag at 25yards from is like using an anti-tank weapon on a deer.
a 30-30 can "make a mess" at 25yards.[/quote]



Sorry, I didn't have the chance to go through my gun collection when the buck showed up at 25 yards to pick the correct caliber and bullet.

And YOUR fellow man has the IQ of a soccer ball?

Bear ; I agree arguing over a dead vs dead animal .

JMO ; If you don't want to blow up the meat use a particular ( Your Choice ) bullet and load it down.

Just because a Rifle Caliber or even Handgun can do a Zillion FPS doesn't mean it has to in

EVERY Scenario . A lot of premium and not so premium bullets won't " Blow Up " or expand

excessively if the velocity is lowered and it still kills the animal DEAD !.

Guess it really depends on the range your shooting at doesn't it !.

If my Deer or Elk hunting was within 150 Yd. on an average I wouldn't use a 7 Mag .

As most all of my Hunting is in excess of 200 Yd. I DO !.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
Where premium bullets shine is when you have your pet load of a 140gr bullet that's skipping along just short of 3400fps and you're all set up for that 400yard shot then some damned deer spoils your plans by trotting right up to you and stops no more than 25yards away.

The premium bullet won't simply explode on contact like a varmint bullet "bomb"...

Amen.


I see the explosive view point as being very beneficial, but not for the 7mm Rem. Magnum. There is simply too much bullet mass and power left after initial expansion in many 140-160 grain bullets which will still allow an exit wound, a very large one.

IMO, the "explosive" theory of killing is best left to a smaller caliber with even greater velocity. Something like a .257 Weatherby with a light bullet and maxed out in velocity.

I would then shoot a bullet like a Nosler Ballistic Tip and hope the entire bullet will explode inside the boiler room and NOT exit. This would give severe hemmorage and almost an instant kill. No problem for deer.

The problem with hunting elk or moose with this rig is hitting the front shoulder.


Having read Weatherby and O'Connor's work, yes, exploding a soft lead bullet completely inside the vitals's kills quick. But I would rather step up to more power with the 7mm Rem. Magnum and use a premium weight retention TTSX. This will still pull through(completely through) on a poor shot hitting shoulder bones.


It would be a different argument if the Barnes product was not so accurate.

ar a 257WBY maxed out with a bt is a deer wounding machine I hate to say.
You may kill three like you set dynamite off inside of them , and the fourth the dynamite very may well explode on the ribs and leave a gaping crater but no vital damage.

I truly believe that the higher the velocity, the tougher the bullet you better use.
The AB is a great bullet, until it is stressed past its parameters.
If I knew I would be shooting at the extreme end of my range I would pick it, it will expand and hang together and do its job.
If I think that there is a chance, even a chance that I may have a 100 yard or less shot with one of my 3000 fps plus calibers I will use a barnes or a partition.
Most likely the barnes, I have some great luck with them and to say that they are the single best thing to happen to a hunter that likes to actually eat their game would be an understatement.

Oh and bear,, dang it go get one of them daylight lamps, your sufferin from lack of sun..