This is a thought spinoff from my significant differences thread. And fueled further by the quote below.

As quoted from Neverflinch:

"4. If we can't get it done with the .30-06 then a larger caliber is in order.....not more velocity in a same caliber."

Point as I see it is when are we better served by leaving the .243 at home and taking the .308 out of the cabinet.

Not to mean just better performance, but truly a better and necessary difference. Sort of like adequate and inadequate classifications.

Here comes the black art magic of caliber selection. All answers will be mired in contrevrsary and will surely be contradicted. That being said, the general rule of thumb is this...

A squirrel is not a coyote, is not a deer, is not an elk, is not a brown bear, is not an eland, is not a buffalo, is not an elephant.

The other reason to jump up would be range. A 100 yard shot at an elk is well within the range of a 30-06, but go to 250, you better hope you have a .338 win mag.

Then again, your mileage may vary.

John

quote:

"
Point as I see it is when are we better served by leaving the .243 at home and taking the .308 out of the cabinet.

Answer;
Every time you go stalking!

When the caliber you are using cannot reliably penetrate thru and thru the animal(s) you are hunting at the ranges you are hunting them, you need to change. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
This is a thought spinoff from my significant differences thread. And fueled further by the quote below.

As quoted from Neverflinch:

"4. If we can't get it done with the .30-06 then a larger caliber is in order.....not more velocity in a same caliber."

Point as I see it is when are we better served by leaving the .243 at home and taking the .308 out of the cabinet.

Not to mean just better performance, but truly a better and necessary difference. Sort of like adequate and inadequate classifications.

That quote was from Vapodog. I agree to a point, but I don't think the difference between a .308 and .338 caliber makes any difference at all. .030 bigger entrance hole won't make a bit of difference, after that it's all about the construction of the bullet.

Kudude has a valid point, if the cartridge/bullet wont' allow me penetration to vitals from any reasonable angle on an animal/range I am hunting, then it's time to start looking @ bigger bullets. For me, big game rounds start @ the .257/115gr bullet & go up. FWIW, anyone that thinks there is lttle diff. between a 180gr/.308 & a 250gr/.338 on game hasn't shot much game w/ the .338.

quote:

Originally posted by Neverflinch:

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
This is a thought spinoff from my significant differences thread. And fueled further by the quote below.

As quoted from Neverflinch:

"4. If we can't get it done with the .30-06 then a larger caliber is in order.....not more velocity in a same caliber."

Point as I see it is when are we better served by leaving the .243 at home and taking the .308 out of the cabinet.

Not to mean just better performance, but truly a better and necessary difference. Sort of like adequate and inadequate classifications.

That quote was from Vapodog. I agree to a point, but I don't think the difference between a .308 and .338 caliber makes any difference at all. .030 bigger entrance hole won't make a bit of difference, after that it's all about the construction of the bullet.

I agree! The accuracy and tragectory of the 308 is often missjudged! It is an inherantly accurate cartridge. You will not be outclassed out 'til 300 yards! With bullet technology being so superior today, the offering of a 338 Fedral is more speed per bullet weight. With of course a lesser B.C. and LESSER S.D.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
FWIW, anyone that thinks there is lttle diff. between a 180gr/.308 & a 250gr/.338 on game hasn't shot much game w/ the .338.

Depends on the cartridge in question. If penetration is not an issue I would say it makes ZERO difference.

First, I guess I owe an apology to Vapodog for the mis quote. So sorry, just got off a plane and been away a few days, so catching up. Still I was wrong.

Next, class of animal, or target and conditions does seem to hold some weight in the discussion. Second, preference is best served by the performance criteria of penetration and terminal performance. I would further assume that regardless of caliber, the weight and general bullet construction would be as similiar as possible.

quote:

Point as I see it is when are we better served by leaving the .243 at home and taking the .308 out of the cabinet. Frowner

and a lot of subjective opinions will be offered including mine.

Like all things in life the answer is.....it depends.

If I have one of each the 308 comes out when I go deer hunting.

If I only own a 243 it goes deer hunting.

If I'm going elk hunting I make a trip to the gun store and buy a 308.

Back in the `50s you had two camps. Big Bores and High Velocity. Lots and lots of discussion on which was better.

You had the folks following Elmer Keith wanting BIG Bores with heavy bullets and the folks following people like P.O. Ackley wanting Very Fast Cartridges with lighter Bullets. Everyone on both sides had ample evidence supporting their favorite selection.

Then along came Roy Weatherby who gave you the very best of both ideas, BIG Bullets(for the caliber) going VERY Fast. The limiting factor being the person doing the shooting. Which resulted in both praise by the folks who used them and whinning by the folks that didn't, about them being w-a-y too much.
---

But, it is not nearly as simple as that today because of the ever improving Bullet Designs. Much cleaner kills can be accomplished with the current Bullets in both the smaller and larger Calibers than was possible only a few years ago. And that seems to have gotten the debates over which Calibers are best for a particular head of Game started all over again.

Fortunately we can pretty much choose a cartridge that is comfortable for that person to shoot well, stick in one of todays bullets(Standard or Premium) and cleanly kill about anything we want to tackle. If you are fortunate to hunt and kill lots of Game, with multiple Cartridges and Bullet weights, over many years, you will still be wondering which is the best for a specific situation.

All that said, it is better to go with the Large and Fast side than to go with the Small and Slow side, " if " you can manage the firearm.

quote:

All that said, it is better to go with the Large and Fast side than to go with the Small and Slow side, " if " you can manage the firearm.

I added the bold.

This is as well put as I've ever read it, and of course this is something everyone must discover for himself.

There's a lot more to today's discussion than the statistics of the cartridge. We have a dozen cartridges fully adequate for any task today but the true differences are not found in the cartridge as much as such factors as:
1 recoil
2 long action/short action
3 lever VS pump vs bolt vs single shot sv semi auuto
4 weight of guns available
5 muzzle blast
6 ammo availability
7 ammo cost
and many of you can add a dozen more.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Point as I see it is when are we better served by leaving the .243 at home and taking the .308 out of the cabinet. Frowner

and a lot of subjective opinions will be offered including mine.

Like all things in life the answer is.....it depends.

If I have one of each the 308 comes out when I go deer hunting.

If I only own a 243 it goes deer hunting.

If I'm going elk hunting I make a trip to the gun store and buy a 308.

Short, to the point and actually answers the question.

Dean

When you're shooting the heaviest bullet you can get in the calliber you typically use it may be time for something bigger. I don't believe in adding velocity to give a caliber more power (ie. 30-06 vs. 300 WM) Velocity in my mind is for flatter tragectory and if a .308 bullet of 180gr. won't do it at 27-2800 fps than 3100 is no better (remember, my own view) This is where the .338 comes in. Now a 200-250gr bullet in the same velocity range of 26-2800fps should give you noticably more usfullness on game when comparing same construction bullets.

I'm thinking of some bears I've shot over the years and two come to mind. They were not giants by no means, but typical size. One was shot around 120 yards with a 30-06 180gr X bullet and performance was perfect. Another was shot around 30 yards with a .338WMag 225gr Xbullet and perfomance was perfect. What does this tell me? The 30-06 was not lacking and with that bullet was hard to improve upon for results. Even against my beloved .338's.

But compare a larger black bear I shot with a 416 Taylor and an expanding bullet (350gr Mag Tip) at only 2450fps, that -06 was no comparison. That son-bitch just hammered to the ground.

it all comes down to the jerk behind the trigger

I have never shot a deer with a 243 but have sure helped track a bunch that have been shot by 1.. We do not allow them on the farm.

That said I have killed several deer with a 257 & 25'06 using 120 gr bullets

I cannot imagine ever leaving a 308 or 7-08 or 260 or 7x57 or 280 or 270 or 30-06 or anything else for that matter and taking a .243 out to hunt.

Penetration is always an issue. Kudude

It's a matter of proportion. The bigger or tougher and animal gets then more effect is required.

So it could be from a larger caliber bullet or other things that contribute to effect on game.

Too many factors to allow blanket statements.
Same caliber, more speed will get you a flatter trajectory, but not only. It may also make the difference in a bullet opening on game. A 30-30 ain't a 30-06 at 200yd with elk. Also, going up in case size can get you heavier bullets at same speed, without the lower SD (and usually BC) of a larger caliber.
Though I'm a proponent of "bigger/heavier" at around 2700-2900 fps for big game, the devil is in the details. Get close and a 165g from a 308 will do most anything you need. If you're recoil shy you can do mostly the same with a 120g from a 6.5mm.

Well, I think this is one of those situations, if a 30/06 is not going to be enough gun... you could substitute a 338 or 35 caliber bore....

But if you need more than that... I wouldn't probably be out there hunting with ya... I see no sport if what I am hunting might potentially be eating me, after I pissed him off with a shot that only wounded him....

Above 30/06. I have a 338/06, a 338 Mag or two, a 444 Marlin, and could probably one day be convinced of a 375 H & H.. or a 416 Rem or Rigby for grins and giggles.. ( but I will have won the lottery, and can buy things I don't really need... and as expensive as a 416 Rigby might be, it is cheaper than a Corvette)...

I still find nothing that I can hunt in the lower 48 that a good 6.5 bore with a 140 grain bullet can't take care of and drop....that doubt is cut in half with a 30/06 and a 220 grain Round Nose within 200 yds...and that cuts in half again with my 338/06 and a 250 grain round nose.. or 225 grain SP....my 444 is just for blowing big holes in something at short range....with 300 grain XTP Hornadys....

cheers
seafire

Personally I have found that the very best reason for a change in caliber or just another round in the same cailber ie. 30-06 to 300mag have never been the fact that the frist one would kill. IS THAT I WANTED ANOTHER RIFLE OR HAND GUN.

Other then that one most likely should jump at least 3 caliber and 100grs in bullet weight.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Personally I have found that the very best reason for a change in caliber or just another round in the same cailber ie. 30-06 to 300mag have never been the fact that the frist one would kill. IS THAT I WANTED ANOTHER RIFLE OR HAND GUN.

Have to agree with that one. Everytime I've bought a new weapon, the main reason was because I didn't have that particular model/caliber. (No matter what I told my wife.)

Some extremly large beasts have been taken with some considerably small chamberings. But I dont thing that means we all should try it.

Very subjective, interesting reading too.

Im not sure where to start with such a question, its quite a broad question with tons of variables. But basically it is about ballancing and common sense.

The notion to use as much gun as you can handle sort of makes sense, but by the same token it would be better to go just a little lighter than you can manage than to push it with too much.

One thing that strikes me is just how underrated some chamberings are that are considered weak, slow, and/or obsolete. For instance the 8X57. I took one out a while back and marveled at the havoc a 196 gn fmj @ 2600 fs can do to rocks and such at hunting range, and just how little it actually dropped. We are innodated with a bunch of numbers and dont realize just how fast 2500+ fs or how far 500 yds really is.

That being said, I am something of an advocate of the old school approach of applying more energy (I can feel the flames already for use of the "E" word) via greater slug mass for larger game. And that is done most efficently by increasing caliber. That is where the 338 has it over the 30 cals, it is more efficent with larger slugs and typically those larger slugs today are made tougher and will bust up tough critters with considerably more ease than smaller lighter ones.

I draw the 243 line at about Antelope, it is marginal at best for Mule deer IMO. Nice flat shooting light recoil round for coyotes up to smallish Whitetail though.

It would be like deer hunting then going on a elk hunt. I wouldn't use the same rifle for both hunts. Then you would need a bigger caliber if going to Africa hunting. Say a 375 H&H or maybe a 416 Rem Mag. That is at what point I would change Calibers.

... if the calier doesn't start with a .4..... LMAO

jeffe

When you have to avoid the shoulder or the deer is going to run too far with a solid chest shot.

In the UK the 243 would be fine up to and including fallow and sika but frowned on for reds.

For me the next step up is 25 or 6.5 with 120gr plus

Neverflinch, let's assume both are started @ the same vel. The larger, heavier bullet will hit game harder w/ the same shot. Again, you have to assume same bullet design as well.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Neverflinch, let's assume both are started @ the same vel. The larger, heavier bullet will hit game harder w/ the same shot. Again, you have to assume same bullet design as well.

Can't argue with that. A heavier bullet will always hit harder if it's the same construction and launched at the same speed. But a lighter bullet of better constuction launched at a higher velocity.....well it's aalways a bunch of if this and if that. My point was that .030" bigger diameter bullet doesn't make any difference what so ever.

quote:

Can't argue with that. A heavier bullet will always hit harder if it's the same construction and launched at the same speed. But a lighter bullet of better constuction launched at a higher velocity.....well it's aalways a bunch of if this and if that. My point was that .030" bigger diameter bullet doesn't make any difference what so ever.

I guess that makes sense but first you say it does then you say it doesn't? I just have my own humble experience shooting my .338-06/210gr @ 2750fps & watching my frineds use their 180gr/2750fps. With sim. placement it appears the heavier bullet is delivering greater impact based on the animals reactions when hit. Agreed the diff. in dia. is closer than a .243 vs .308 but the weight gain is more significant.

I do not have the experience of many on this board, but let me offer my observations -

I was a "dyed in the wool" small caliber fan - deer with .243 and elk with .280. I took a kudu and gemsbok with a .280 as well. Never lost anything.

After trying a .300 win mag and .375 H&H in Africa and on elk, I am switching to "bigger and badder" for awhile. I cannot explain the technical part, but the .30 cal and bigger bullets hit harder and kill quicker. I like to see what I shoot drop in it's tracks. The PH's used a term - DRT - that I have never heard before - "Dead Right There". They liked for the shooters to use the biggest caliber they could shoot well. I tried that and am now doing it. My sons and daughter do it as well.

My 2 cents worth.

To me it comes down to what tradeoffs you're willing to make in regard to limiting your shots.

If all I had was a 22 hornet with 50 gr solids, I'd still feel sufficiently armed for any NA game, the catch is I would limit my shots to neck or brain, and inside 50 yds. I'm not personally willing to limit myself thusly, so I won't use a 22 hornet for everything.

Middle of the road would be your generic deer rifle of 6.5mm to 30 caliber pushing a 120-165 gr bullet some 2700-3000 fps, I'd take any NA game with a lungshot with such a setup inside 300 yds, and with a lazer could see stretching the range past 400 if I and the gun were up to it.

The other extreme is the 338 mag on up. I wouldn't have to limit my shots, because I'd have enough bullet to take out both shoulders, or heavily quartering shots. I can also shoot a 338 as accurately as a 22 hornet.

To me I see the question more to the rifle configuration. I can handle a 30 cal on down in a very light rifle, and for the instances I'd want a really light rifle, I'd give up the shots I'd take with a 338 on up.

If I can live with a 8-9# rifle, than I'd take a 338 on up.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:

quote:

Can't argue with that. A heavier bullet will always hit harder if it's the same construction and launched at the same speed. But a lighter bullet of better constuction launched at a higher velocity.....well it's aalways a bunch of if this and if that. My point was that .030" bigger diameter bullet doesn't make any difference what so ever.

I guess that makes sense but first you say it does then you say it doesn't? I just have my own humble experience shooting my .338-06/210gr @ 2750fps & watching my frineds use their 180gr/2750fps. With sim. placement it appears the heavier bullet is delivering greater impact based on the animals reactions when hit. Agreed the diff. in dia. is closer than a .243 vs .308 but the weight gain is more significant.

Exactly. You are comparing a heavier bullet shot at the SAME velocity. I never said it did and then said it didn't. Your not reading what I wrote. The weight of a 250 gr. .338 is what makes the difference, not that it's .338" in diameter when compared to a lighter bullet shot at the same velocity. But even then if you launch a .308 200gr. at 3200 compared to a .338" 250 at 2700. then the weight doesn't even make a difference. Then it's about bullet construction. Like I said, if penetration is not a factor, meaning assuming what you are shooting at that the bullet will pass through, or even that it will at least pass through the vitals, it makes zero difference. A mushroomed .308 and a mushroomed .338 will more than likely be the same size, leaving the same size entrance and exit hole. Like i said .030" is nothing. Weight of the bullet is of ZERO importance then. The problem is when you start shooting 200gr .308's at that kind of velocity, you better have a damn good bullet, because weight can start to peel rather rapidly if you don't. But then thats another argument.....

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
Penetration is always an issue. Kudude

Shooting a .308 180gr. bullet at 3300 and a 250gr. .338 at 2700 at a whitetail or mule deer.......I would say penetration is not an issue. With a proper bullet even hitting the shoulder or ribs and I would say it a pass through everytime. Unles the bullet fails.....another argument.

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
When the caliber you are using cannot reliably penetrate thru and thru the animal(s) you are hunting at the ranges you are hunting them, you need to change. Kudude

You know, this is about as perfect a response that you could hope for.

I think with every thing else being equal, a bigger diameter is always better.

I have seen this first hand on elk and deer.

I have seen elk shot with 243-375 H&H. The 375 H&H seemed to hit them harder. The 243 killed it. But it sure didn't act like it was hit.

I personally have settled on a 338 for elk. With every one I have shot. The elk acted like it was hit, and left little doubt that it was hurting. I still took follow up shots, because that is my mentality when it comes to elk.

I have witnessed and shot elk with 270's and the elk were dead, but it sure didn't instill a lot of confidence after the shot.

I witnessed an elk shot with a 300 WM this past fall (100 yards) and the only indication that it was hit was when it jumped at bullet impact. Took off with the rest of the herd and we only knew it was dead when it t-boned an aspen tree. Follow ups were out of the question due to the rest of the herd.

I don't need to blow stuff away, but when I shoot, I want to know that animal is done for.

I have seen the exact same results on deer. I have a shot quite a few deer the last couple of years with a 22-250. It did the job, but not like my 270. The deer's reaction is just not the same.

Even more impressive to me on deer is the bigger bores. Like 338-06, 35 rem, 358 win, 348 win, and 375. When you shoot a deer with those, you know immediately. That animal is hurting and you know they are done.

I also know that in the bigger calibers, you do not need any super bullets for deer. In fact I would advise against. I shot an old whitetail buck with a 338 WM and 225 TBBC bullets. The buck rodeod a kick and took off running. The entrance and exit holes were OK, but from a controlled expansion bullet. He probably ran 150 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
When the caliber you are using cannot reliably penetrate thru and thru the animal(s) you are hunting at the ranges you are hunting them, you need to change. Kudude

Yes, but within reason, penetration is more a function of bullet design (including sectional density, of course) than of bore size. For example, I once read a statement by W.D.M. Bell that the Kynoch 173-grain FMJ bullet fired from a 7X57mm Mauser round was the only bullet he'd ever heard whistling away through the air after it had passed through an elephant's head. Now, he did not claim that other, similar bullets of larger caliber did not have equal or better penetration, just that the 7mm was "adequate" for the task.

Of all available calibers in his day, Bell opined that the .308 Winchester, loaded with a good 4-diameter solid (220 grain qualifies) would be the best of all rounds for the kind of elephant shooting he used to do, since it could be used in a short action, which he considered to be an improvement over even a 7X57mm Mauser-size action.

It was more a matter of where he hit them than what he hit them with. And it still is, actually!

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Personally I have found that the very best reason for a change in caliber or just another round in the same cailber ie. 30-06 to 300mag have never been the fact that the frist one would kill. IS THAT I WANTED ANOTHER RIFLE OR HAND GUN.

Other then that one most likely should jump at least 3 caliber and 100grs in bullet weight.

3 calibers AT LEAST!!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
... if the calier doesn't start with a .4..... LMAO

jeffe

Nice try Jeffe. Now, if only we can get more to come over to the dark side instead of dwelling over whether to upgrade from 308 to 338 Win Mag! Why not just go big from the get go? No questions about HAVING to go bigger, moreso how to load down so you can use yer elephant thumper on DEER!

quote:

When the caliber you are using cannot reliably penetrate thru and thru the animal(s) you are hunting at the ranges you are hunting them, you need to change. Kudude

This reminds me of how I tell hunters who come for bear, what kind of bullet they should use. I tell them they should use a bullet that will break the heaviest bone the animal has standing in the way of its heart from whatever shootable position it may ofer.