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I know there are lots of ways to look at the two cartridges, but for ordinary mortal hunters, here's some data... It was taken directly from a Hornady reloading manual's tables using bullets as close to similar in that manual as were then available...154 grain 7 m/m and 150 grain .30 caliber. both were cup & core hunting bullets,loaded to the same maximum pressures. Mind you, the manual was published about 15 or more years ago, so possible maximum loads have doubtless changed since then. At the time, the maximum load for the 154 grain 7 m/m RM bullets was listed as giving 3,000 fps with either 63.2 grs. of Norma 204, 65.4 grs. of H-4831, or 79.1 grs. of H-870. In the .30-06 with the 150 gr. bullets,the max velocity listed was 3,100 fps with 56.1 grs. of W-748, 63.2 grs. of W-760, or 61.5 grs. of Norma 205. Here are the velocities and drop figures for those bullets at 100 to 500 yards. Cartridge 7m/mRM Vel. In. of Drop Muzzle 3,000 0 100 yards 2,770 +1.5 200 yards 2,550 0 300 yards 2,342 -7.0 400 yards 2,147 -20.7 500 yards 1,963 -41.9 Cartridge 30-06 Muzzle 3,100 0 100 yards 2,824 +1.5 200 yards 2,562 0 300 yards 2,317 -7.0 400 yards 2,089 -20.5 500 yards 1,878 -42.3 Interesting, eh? Basically, it says that back in the days when the 7 m/m was becoming known as the super long range deer rifle, when using the Hornady bullets apporoximating 150 grains weight then available, the .30-06 actually exceeded the 7 m/m Rem Mag ballistic performance out to 400 yards despite the better SD of the 7m/m projectiles, and only dropped 0.4" more at 500 yards. I know powders and bullets have changed since then, but it does go a long way toward explaining why some folks still see the .30-06 as one helluvah fine deer rifle. | ||
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and elk rifle and moose rifle and kudu rifle and, and, and,..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Hornady interlock: 7mm 154gn bc .433 Sd .273 30cal 150gn bc .338 Sd .234 difference in drift 154gn vs 150gn at: [based on the respective muzzle velocities you have given] 300yd is 6.95" vs 8.7" 400yd is 12.4" vs 15.8" 500yd is 19.9" vs 25.7" | |||
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Tried to explain this to a Big Seven fan back in 84 or so and finally left him to his "belt" and his "more powder" as beyond help. Same issue on the 280 Remington loaded to 270 pressures by the way. The fan eventually loaded his big seven down because it kicked too much. It still killed deer out to 500 yards by holding "dead on." I guess the bullets he used had little heat seeking rockets in them or something. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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 If we look at the .264 Win. Mag., .270 Win., .280, .284, 7mm X 64mm.,7mm Rem Mag.and 30-06,(forget the short fats) is there any real difference in field capability in the lower 48 out to a sensible 300 yds.? The fire arms marketing people would like us to think so. New and different toys for the boys; a fickle susceptible group as you know. Me Too!  roger  Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Personally I found that I enjoy each cailber on its own. I own 5 06s and a bunch of other calibers but no 7mag. Would I yes if I found a nice free marget 7 mag at the right price I would buy it today. I all ready have dies and some brass, primers,7mm bullets and powder that would work. It is just that I haven't found the right priced rifle yet. | |||
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As mentioned, bullets have changed since the Hornady data listed above was published. New bullet shapes have helped a lot in every caliber. Of course every bit of less drift in the wind at 500 yards is a help. But I don't know many, if any, hunters who can read 1 MOA of wind in the field at 500 yards without wind flags, or even hold their shots that close at 500 yards from commonly encountered field shooting positions. At 500 yards the 7m/m RM does begin to have a little wee advantage,which gets bigger as distances increase beyond that. But, how many hunters do you know who should even be considering shots at live game from anything other than a firm rest at those hopefully lazered ranges? | |||
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I certainly agree with those sentiments!! I currently have 3 7m/m magnums (and 14 30-06s). I am not badmouthing the 7m/m mags...just praising the often not fullly appreciated .30-06. | |||
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Ah yes, put another log on the fire, have a sip of toddy, and we'll reach a decision in short order.  If one is old enough to look back on the hype that was published back when belts were new, the laws of physics were shredded and truth lay bleeding on the floor. The big 7 would actually RISE out to 400-500 yards so if you were shooting at shorter ranges, you had to aim under the animal; any hit by a Weatherby would kill from kenetic energy and if it merely past close, the sonic boom would do it in. And the old, out-dated '06 just kept trudging along killin' stuff. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Isn't the same with some of the modren bullets they almost kill by themselfs. | |||
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I have used both the 3006 and 7RM. Lets compare something a little closer in bullets 150 in 06 and 140 in 7RM. Vel for each in Nosler manuel #4 is 3000 for 06 and 3350 for 7RM. I have attained both in each caliber. There are not flys on the 3006 with 150gr bullets for deer. but to try and compare it with the 7RM isn't fare to either. Rob | |||
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I think that there is more to it than just velocity or "drop". For many, myself included, it is also about: 1) what rifle format is available in any particular calibre, 2) about whether any particular calibre is legal or illegal for certain game or in certain jurisdictions, 3) about bullet selection available in that calibre size. So many may prefer a 7mm RM over a 30-06 because one or the other is available in a slef-loading rifle or with a 22" barrel, or with iron sights, or etc., etc., etc. Others may not be allowed a 30-06 where they live. Some may prefer that in .284" there are more bullets than in .277" (especially the European "exotics" in TUG, TOG etc., etc., or in heavier weights. And others that a 30-06 will usually hold one round more in its magazine than a 7mm RM. Others, well, to be honest may have a "belted magnum" moniker obsession! Me I shoot a 270 Winchester, a 280 Remington and a 6mm Remington. If I could use it in France I'd probably replace the first two with a 30-06...except that in the "style" that I like I have yet to see a good, cheap, secondhand 30-06! | |||
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Exactly!! Magic bullets. they compensate for the fact that you can't estimate range, they compensate for the fact you can't hunt nor stalk, they allow you to snipe at animals at long distances even though you can't shoot worth a shit. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I'm not certain I understand what you think isn't fair about it. As close to the same weight Hornady bullets as it was possible to use at the time, loaded to the same pressure. What could be MORE fair, and why would it be more fair? I'm sorry if 7m/m fans feel wounded because their favorite didn't turn out to be the champ until out at 500 yards or more. I will repeat, this is ONE way to compare the rounds. There are many other ways. This is also NOT an attempt to put down the 7m/m Rem Mag. It IS a citation of figures which show that with the same weight bullets fired at the same pressure, the '06 is just as good or maybe a little tiny bit better as far as drop goes, from the muzzle out to beyond 400 yards. That in no way says the 7m/m mag isn't fully adequate or that one should buy the '06 instead. It just shows that the 7m/m wasn't the magic long range cartridge lots of folks assume(d) it was, when compared with the '06 which at the time the big 7 was introduced had already been a proven performer for some for 56 years. BOTH are good long range deer cartridges. In fact, one could toss them both in a hat, shake it up, then draw one or the other out blindly and do just fine with whichever they drew out, to 500 yards, with no discernable difference in ranging capability. | |||
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 I never kilt nothin at 500 yards.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Nor will I, ever again. I have killed numerous cow elk at substantially longer ranges, but it was not because I wanted to. It is because I was required to do it as part of my volunteer game control work for the State of Oregon Department of Game and Fish. I quit that work because it made me feel sick to do it, even when directed to. Worse yet, every single one of them was carrying a well developing bull elk fetus at the various times they were killed. I know, because I autopsied every single one of them we killed on those forays. | |||
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What is unfair is the SD of the bullets your comparing. 30cal is 226 for anything close to that we would have to look at 130gr Speer at 230. 150gr 30cal at 3000 per Hornady and 130gr 7mm at 3314 per Speer. Apples to Apples. | |||
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In my opinion that is not unfair at all. The '06 happens to use bullets with an SD that lets them get there first with a flatter trajectory, when using bullets of near the same weight. That's not unfair. It is just an advantage the '06 happens to have out to 500 yards,, like it or not. Beyond 500 yards, the 7m/m mag benefits from the difference in SD, and that isn't unfair either...just the way it is. | |||
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I have owned two 7RM rifles both were Weatherby MK V with plenty of tube length. I loaded for years trying to find velocity that justified the heavier load and rifle. Never did drink the coolaid and never was satisfied with the performance with my big sevens Those who know me and hunt with me here know I pack an old -06 or a .270 for just about everything under the sun......sod poodles, ground hogs to elk ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Alberta, Rob1SG was citing good facts. His Nosler manual had the 7mRM at 3300 and the 30-06 at 3000 for similar sectional density. The 7mmRM is flatter. That was its design. If you want diameter and heavier bullets, go with the 30-06. If you want to cite a different book and make different choices, fine. But the physics of case capacity and bore allow the 7mmRM to shoot flatter than the 30-06 for similar sectional density. The 7mmRM has about a 18% usable capacity advantage over the 30-06. The 7mmRM has published data for 150 grain bullets at 3200fps, but I consider that 'hot' and 3400 ftlbs is too much to ask of the 7mm. If you want that then get a 300mag. Nosler currently lists 150 grain in 7mmR at 3050 fps and in 30-06 at 2900 fps. But if one compares similar sectional density, then the nosler manual gives over 3100 fps with better SD (140 grain is .248 SD) for the 7mmRM. Various rifles and barrels, of course, can also create differences of 150 fps with the same loads. For comparison, it sometimes helps to find an average across different manuals and powders. I would rate the 7mmRM at about 3100-3150 foot-pounds and the 30-06 at about 2800-2850 ftlbs. The velocities will depend on the bullet weights that will produce those AVERAGED, representative energies. Many rifles will do better. But the averaged energies are a good comparative guide. Personally, I use 270's when looking at that class of rifle, and I like them fast and flat. My wife's 270 does 3400 fps with Barnes 110 TTSX, which is all that is necessary for 300 lb animals and less and at any reasonable range. The 06 is not as flat with deer bullets, but the 7mm could squeek past it with the light 120 TTSX at 3500-3550. Each design has its pluses and minuses. The 30-06 is flat, but should not be flatter-rated than a 7mmRM. The 30-06 can handle heavier, fatter bullets, and is appropriately rated as better in that regard than the 7mmRM. When I need more weight or diameter than a 270, I start looking at 338. The 338 allows steping up from a 3000 ftlb rifle to a 4000 ftlb rifle. Each design has its pluses and minuses. O'Connor and Keith, quite nice legacies. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Although what you say may be correct IMHO it is a tad miss leading. The 110gr. .270 bullet of what you speak is designed to do the job. Put an equally designed 30 caliber 110 gr. bullet in the 30-06 at 3550 fps. and the story dramatically changes. It's FIELD performance out to 300 yds.would not be bested by the .270 by any measurement I know of.The original premise was that the 7mm REM. Mag does not and has not left the venerable 06 sitting in the dust on game at any practical range. This can be carved in stone !!!  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I am really amazed at the Hate for the 7mm Rem mag. The 7x57 is not an uber sniper, but the Boers used it and out ranged the Brits w/ .303's. The M41b, although not a 7mm is known as the last of the 800 yard killers(6.5x55, Much to low of a velosity for .308 fan boys). I've shot both. I actually prefer the 7mm by a long stretch. (notice I did not say shot!) The 7mm Rem Mag was known as a slayer w/ 175gr, not 150gr. If you want to make it a debate, the 8x57 beats the .30-06 w/ 196gr plus all day long. Wait the .30-06(7.62x63) is just a copy. So were the rifles. I'm very comfortable w/ a 160gr Barnes XFB w/ a SD of .283 and a B.C. of .508 and a MV of 2800fps. Even a 140gr XFB has a sd of .248 and a b.c of .436 at 3100fps. M2 ball(.30-06) 150gr has a MV of 2700fps. Modern loads are about 2800fps for a 165gr. 1761fpe at 300 yards. 7mm Rem mag is 1900fpe. 7mm is at 1641 for 400 yards, .30-06, 1465 fpe. If you want to see a stark contrast, compare the .30-06 w/ a 180gr to a 6.5x55 w/ a 140gr. The .30-06 looses. You can pull numbers on any caliber and find something to support any claim, but in the field, that is where it counts. To each his own. But I never really found a use for the .30-06. It does not float my boat. | |||
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As I said before, My original post in the thread was NOT intended as a put down of the 7m/m RM. Why can't you 7m/m fans get or accept that point? I grant you that with equal SD, the 7 m/m can do better, but that is NOT the point I was making. I don't give a damn what the SD is in this particular instance. My point was the one that Roger clearly understood. With a deer bullet of the same weight the old '06 is just as good a round as the 7m/m mag at most hunters' deer-kllling distances. If any one here thinks the animals which are shot with either can tell the difference regardless of SD, then I think they are misguided. | |||
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The original spec for the 7mm Rem when it came out was a 175g bullet at 3000 fps from a 24" barrel. That's 300 Win Mag performance, not 30-06. If you love your 30-06 that's great, and with heavier bullets 200 and 220g it can do things the 7mm can't. With 180g and lighter bullets, the 7mm outperforms it, plain and simple. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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338-06 with 185 gr. TTSX kills better than both. | |||
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 But did it ever do that?Looking at Richard Lee's Manual( uses almost every one's data)the 175 grain bullet in the 7mm Rem. mag. at 58400 psi. produces a velocity of 2900 fps.  the 175 grain bullet in the 30-06 at only 56300 psi. gets 2825 fps. considering the pressure differential I see no glaring performance difference here.  You know it just dawned on me that I don't even own an 06 anymore but I still have a 7mm Rem. Mag. Don't really have a strong feeling for either shoulder thumper but the point AC is making is real.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Anyone who quotes drop figures and ignores wind drift isn't really going to connect at long range anyway, so who cares? Trax posted the drift figures, but everyone seemed to have ignored them. I currently own neither rifle, but I do own a 7STW, a few .308s, and a few more .300 RUMs. | |||
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+1 I didn't repeat them because they are a function of BC/specific bullet with velocity, not a cartridge per se. That is why the 338 Lapua, 408 CheyTac, 50BMG, do so well at long range.
Except that physics won't let us design an equal 110 grain bullet. It's diameter is bigger so that the BC will start to drop off quickly, causing more wind drift and with the lower SD it will not penetrate as reliably on a quartering shot. So bullet manufacturers don't usually make 110 gr DEER bullets in 30 cal. A 110 TTSX 30 cal has a .166 SD and a .295 BC., neither figure is recommended for serious long range deer hunting. The 110 .270 cal, on the otherhand, has a .205 SD and .377 BC to better pentrate and buck the wind, though both figures are marginal for the purpose. Barnes makes a 95 grain TTSX .277" but its SD and BC start to approach the 110 gr. 30 cal and are best avoided in the 270W, just like the 110 TTSX is best avoided in the 30-06 as a full-throttle deer load. I happen to like 416's, too. And the 350 gr TTSX (.289SD, .444BC) shuts down the 300 grain TSX (.248SD, .298BC) even though it can be set off at +200fps, but then the SD's and BC's have their effect. It's physics. One picks the overall package that one wants. The specific advantages of each calibre, of the 270W, 7mmRM, 30-06, 300mag, are the little items that tip a scale for each hunter. My point is that each of these cartridges has a LITTLE niche advantage and playing with numbers to remove the advantage of a sister cartridge is just playing with numbers. Didn't Jack OConnor already outline all of this 40 years ago? And even Mr. 270 would acknowledge a LITTLE advantage to the 30-06 for heavier animals, moose and elk. You pick a package. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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If a variation in SD makes no difference,then why should variation in bullet weight,dia., vel. or momentum? [if theres already well sufficient of such to do the task] Eg; do you think that a deer will be able to tell the difference between being hit with a 6.5mm vs .30cal at most hunters deer killing distances? Load the 6.5x55 to around .30/06 pressures and you end up with: 6.5mm 129gn Hornady interlock[bc .445] 2800mv 300yd:2211v/1400e 6.5mm140np[bc .490]-2750mv 300yd:2218v/1529e | |||
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I enjoy these discussions as much as the next guy. But I do have to admit that most medium/small bores on similar case sizes aren't that far apart in real world killing power at moderate ranges and trajectories are closer than most can hold under hunting conditions. Also, you can choose good high BC bullets in one case and other bullets in another and it makes a world of difference. In my opinion there's not a heap to choose between 7mm on the 06 case (280/7x64) and 30-06, 7mm Rem etc. at the same bullet weights. The benefit of the larger calibers is the heavier not the lighter bullets (and bore diameter), so I would never make a comparison that involved a 150gr 30-06, but that's just me, I don't for a moment suggest it's not a fair or useful comparison. These discussions are fun, but by the end of it we generally find what we actually already know; that in most circumstances there's not much to choose depending on how we draw the comparisons. If we open it up wide and go to 220gr 30-06 and 168gr or 180gr high BC 7mm RM we have a different discussion again. Even 180gr 30-06 vs 180gr 7RM. Now many will tell me that my comments were to general and my conclusions too vague, but I've shot quite a few rifles at targets and animals and I've spent a pile of time on the ballistics calculators, so I've done these exercises. And I still see the justification for quite a number of rifles, so go figure! | |||
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 With a reasonable degree of intelligence and ingenuity a 110 grain bullet in 30 caliber can be designed to give equal performance at senseable distances. Again, however that wasn't the point of AC's post. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Tell it to Barnes. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Alberta's data is a bit cherrypicked since the top velocity with 150's at equal pressures is a tad higher with the 7mm Rem than with the .30-06 (and somewhat higher with the 7mm Rem if you regard it as necessary to stick to SAAMI pressure limits for the two cartridges.) That said, both the theoretical data and field experience will show that there is little difference in the practical application of the two cartridges. As with any two cartridges of different bore sizes, the smaller bore has an advantage when you desire to use lighter bullets at a higher velocity for lighter game(perhaps 140's in the 7mm) or heavier bullets for larger game (typically 180's in the .30-06). If I'm hunting pronghorns in New Mexico I'd (slightly) prefer the 7mm shooting a 140 grainer around 3200 fps -- although it would have only a marginal advantage over a .30-06 with 150's at 3,000 fps. If I'm hunting moose in the Boreal forest of Canada, I'd (again, slightly) prefer a .30-06 shooting a 180 grainer at 2800 fps -- although it would have only a marginal advantage over a 7mm Rem shooting a 175 grainer at about the same speed. | |||
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It's RCH's out to even non-sporting, enjoy the hunt ranges. | |||
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Of course the 30-06 data here is possible with good handloads but typical factory performance is 2650 fps with 180g bullets in a 22" barrel and maybe 2900 fps (probably less) with 150g bullets in a 22" barrel. The 7mm will be faster with both 150g bullets and 175g bullets with factory. If you're going to compare handload velocities you need to do that with both cartridges. 3150 fps with 150g bullets and 2950 fps with 175g bullets is the standard handload for my friend with a Rem 700 in 7mm Mag with a 24" barrel. In either case the game won't feel the difference. At longer ranges wind drift becomes important and the 7mm will have an edge in velocity and BC with both bullet weights. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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The 30-06 has the advantage of heavier bullets if you're hunting big, dangerous stuff up close, and the 7mm mags have the advantage of higher BC and velocities if you're hunting at very long range (over 400 yds). Outside of those two extremes, there is very little difference. | |||
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Growing up I was told that "the 7mm RM shoots flatter than the 270 Win and hits harder than the 30-06, giving you the best of both worlds." **************** NRA Life Benefactor Member | |||
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The whole thing is kind of funny. Chuck a sturdy bullet with a SD in the .230-.240 range from any case that will produce 2800 to 3400 fps and anything in the deer family is dead to 400 yards with reasonable shot placement. That is to say a rifleman that chooses one of the many and practices and becomes proficient makes all equal...dead is dead. Roy W. just opened the eyes of the gun industry to the marketing tool they had all missed. When laws of physics and practicallity meet with the average to even moderately obsessive hunter it comes down to the quality of the shot not the cartridge. Bad shots with bigger guns just spray shit further up the tree. | |||
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just another reason to never own a 7mm mag  I am not biased against too many cartridges, but the 7mm mag is at the top of my list. All due to my first encounter I had with a magnum brainwashed nimrod in 1985 who claimed his 7mm mag was far superior to my 270. Whilst I filled my tag with one clean shot on my best buck to date at that time. He proceeded to wound two very nice bucks with his "superior" cartridge. The word idiot comes to mind. Problem is, we had to deal that guy every year until the ranch sold. He was truly FOS, and I am forever biased against the 7mm mag. Even quit reading Boddington for awhile when he was promoting it so heavily. | |||
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