You are right Sendero, that's why Nolser came up w/ the partition, good expansion, good penetration & at least in my rifles better than acceptable accuracy. It may not be a true premium, but it is what every other bullet manuf. tries to better.

quote:

your friend's bull ran a grand total of 150 yards before falling, and the bullet failed?

I know of several cases where the animal ran 150 yards or less, and was lost (discovered later following the magpies). I wish I knew the percentage of lost animal that only ran that distance.

I can see four reasons for choosing premiums.

1) Muzzle velocities exceeding 2700 fps, when a standard cup core leaves the muzzle at 3000 fps or better, odds are it won't hold up on close in shots.

2) Sending a boy to do a mans job. If you shoot a small bore, and are trying to extend it's performance for tackling larger game, premium bullets will give the needed penetration.

3) Shot presentation. While we'd love to have every critter line up for the perfect broadside shot, and slip one through both ribs, the real world doesn't always present those angles, especially if a follow up is required. A premium will provide the needed penetration for quartering shots and heavy bone.

4)Lighter bullets for flatter trajectory. Premiums will perform as well as conventional bullets a few rungs up the weight for caliber scale, yet leave the muzzle faster due to lighter weight.

One of the paradigs of gun looners are folks that have thousands of dollars in various rifles in their gun rack, yet bitch about spending $1 a pop on a bullet. I'd venture to say any handloader worth their salt can buy 100 of the premium bullets of their choice, find a load that shoots, and have 3 boxes of hunting ammo leftover. Use the cheapy bullets for range work.

In general I am not that bothered whether a person uses a Premium or an none Premium providing the person uses reasonable logic when making that choice.

I wonder how many folks simply go into Wmart and simply pick a box of bullets marked of the correct caliber giving little thought to the brand, bullet type or weight...

Pete, that would be 75% of all of the hunters in the USA. I know several guys that have bought a box of hunting ammo & it lasts them 2-3 seasons. One-two shots to check the scope, one-two shots to bag their deer, special ammo/bullets mean nothing to these guys. It's the nuts like us that shoot 400-500 rds a year, travel long distances to hunt often, actually leave the road/blind to find game. We are the guys keeping the reloading & "premium" bullet companies in business.

I'm just wondering how many have every shot an elk without a so called premium bullet? When I started reloading in the 60's wasn't alot of them around. Wby was loading their factory ammo with Hornady and Partition bullets back then. I've had pretty good luck over the years with core-lokt bullets on elk haven't lost one yet and I haven't always had that perfect shot either.
I'm just not a big fan of the premium type bullets and have to laugh alittle when hearing the comments about maybe the reason some don't use them is the cost. I mainly hunt deer and elk and maybe there are afew guys like me that just don't see a need for them plain and simple. I've been shooting those 30cal core-lokt 165 and 180gr bullets over 3000fps and the only problem I've had is never have found a bullet in a elk yet just hole going in and exit hole. We can all quote stories as to bullet failure.
I was up at the Denver Sportmans Warehouse store and see alot of factory ammo with premium bullets but in the reloading section don't see alot of bullets. Well anyway good luck to all on this coming elk season should be a good year.

quote:

I'm just wondering how many have every shot an elk without a so called premium bullet?

I have shoot three. First was with a 32 Winchester Special, I don't even think you can buy premium bullets for that cartridge. And I know that in 1976 when I did it there wasn't any premium factory ammo for it.

Second was with a 30-06 and Winchester Silvetips. Third was with a handloaded Hornady in my 7x57.

I don't think any premium bullet on the planet would have improved the 32 Win Special performance. Wasn't the bullet it was the wrong cartridge for the task at hand. The upside was the first shot was a solid lung shot and it gave me enough time to get a heart and a spine shot with the last shot dropping the animal quickly.

I kind of liked that old 32 special, good deer rifle, and it was unique in that most 32 Specials grouped awful when they got old but this one still shot straight. Traded it off in a week moment, on of the few guns I sold I would have rather kept in hindsight.

I started out hunting with 165 gr. Hornadys in the 30-06 for deer and elk when I was a teenager. This was in the "pre-Interloct" days, and those bullets worked well; I never recovered one.

I've also used 175 gr. Hornady Interlocts in the 7mm Rem. Mag. for mule deer and elk with sometimes good results, although one bull I hit in the shoulder from fifty yards out stumbled but didn't go down, so I shot him again. The first bullet broke up and did not get into the chest, while the second went through both lungs and exited.

Another bull I shot from about 200 yds. with a 180 gr. Hornady Interloct out of a 30-06 (2725 fps. MV) was hit in the left shoulder. The bullet broke the scapula, went through the lungs, and exited behind the right shoulder. At the shot, the bull turned to run but collapsed. This was a good, solid performance that no one could fault.

I've used a number of 225 gr. and 250 gr. Hornadys out of the 338 Win. Mag. for mule deer, elk, and bison with generally good results. I have a whole collection of these that I took out of various animals. Some look like textbook, perfect mushrooms, while others are in pieces. Without exception, the ones that fragmented did not penetrate well and recquired a second shot. I can distinctly remember another bull that took a 225 Hornady and acted like he wasn't even hit, so before he could amble off I racked the bolt and shot him again, and this time he dropped. The first bullet was a perfect mushroom, but only penetrated a few inches and did not get into the chest cavity. If this sounds weird, it was. This bullet mushroom rapidly to a wide diameter, and I'm convinced this is the reason it didn't get inside -- it sort of acted like its own breaking system.

Another bull was hit by a 270 gr. Hornady from a 375 H&H through both lungs and ran 200 yds, before he fell over. This mini-marathon was not the result of bullet failure, because the lungs of this bull were in shambles and the bullet went clear through and exited. A shoulder hit would likely have worked better, although I've had other bulls go down very quickly from lungs shots with lesser calibers. Sometimes well-hit elk just plain run..........

I could elaborate on a good many more elk results I've witnessed with non-premium bullets, but this would take more time than I can allow right now. As you might see from the examples I've given, standard bullets have at times worked very well, but sometimes I've had to make up for their inconsistencies by more shooting, and sometimes by trailing. The premiums I've used have been absolutely reliable and monotonously consistent, whether I've been using Partitions, Fail-Safes, or Trophy Bondeds. That's been the difference for me, and that's why I'll be loaded with either Partitions or North Forks for the 338 Win. when I head to NM for elk this season..........

AD

AD, looks to me like one simple thing to do is add up the cost of 2 bullets per animal (or more), plus the additional powder, primer, and one more shot from the case life vs. 1 premium, and recompute costs.

It is safe to say that the "bullet debate" is a never ending one. I have more confidence with a premium bullet. And that is all that matters.

My hunting buddy and I discussed this very topic a few weeks ago as we packed out the umteenth bear we've killed togethor. We conclude, that those who poo hoo "premiums" and complain of pin holes and the like, haven't hunted much with eigther type of bullet. They couldn't possible have.

We've both killed far more game with non-premiums than the premiums. He with Nosler's solid base and I with the ballistic tip. No more. One load for a particular rifle are important to both of us, and hunting game from antelope to moose in a single season, quite possibly the same day is not uncommon. Like Allen said earlier; neigther of us can find a good reason not to use a premium bullet.

Chuck

Originally posted by Allen Day:

quote:

Sometimes well-hit elk just plain run..........

That is what I have been waiting to hear, Allen. Sometimes it is not a fault of the bullet, because the bullet did its job. I think, in all fairness, that elk are probably the toughest NA game animal there is. (And nilgai don't count, because they are imports.) The big guys just sometimes run, even with their heart and lungs shot completely out. If you want one to drop, shoot them in the spine. But it's very risky, and something I won't do. I, like most of us, will shoot premium bullets, (even at whitetails) because they are insurance well worth the cost. But we should be prepared to track, and track long and hard, any time we go to the woods. The animals deserve that, and we should make sure we don't waste game. Elk especially are too hard to find, and the country they range in can hide a dead one extremely easily. (And like has already been said, no bullet will ever make up for choppy shooting!)
Okay, I have rambled long enough. Good fortune to all this fall, no matter what the quarry. Straight shots and easy retrieval...

I spend so much going on any hunt, and usually use only 1-2 bullets on any hunt. OK add in the range shooting, I paid $10-25 more on my box of bullets, its cheap insurance, very small plus up to the cost of a hunt.

Why is it in a lot of posts people go out of their way to say the Nosler Partition isn't a premium bullet?

I always thought it was, It's the only "premium" bullet if ever used.

Just wondering.

Terry

You got me. Partitions are premiums bullets. There was a need for a "better" bullet than plain lead core, it cost money to tool up and begin manufacturing, it cost more than regular bullets.

I don't get it either. Does Nosler call them premium? What is the definition of "premium" bullet?

Here you go: PREMIUM: adj.
Of superior quality or value: as in premium gasoline

Magnum61, my .375 Holland would handle those creatures quite nicely with 19,5g Winchester Silvertip. What about this RUM + Premium? Hell, I don't know, I prefer Cognac!

My thinking is, a standard or non premium bullet is one that has a copper/alloy jacket, a lead core that is not bonded, and could have a tip of plastic, aluminum etc, and can be of any configuration ie plain base, boat tail, spitzer, semi spitz, round nose etc.

A premium bullet can have the core bonded, internal support in the jacket, ie partition, mono-metal construction, ie X bullet, or a combination of those features.

There is something to the one gun one load as well as touched on by one of our posters. If you have old faithful set up for mice to moose, you're more likely to know exactly where that pill is going to land then if you use a different bullet or weight of bullet for every species, and carry multiple loads on a hunt.

If you like non premiums then use them...

But for me I lived in an era before premium bullet were available and then those that were available were priced out of my pocket book..

I have seen a number of Sierras, Hornadays, Remington, Win. and a host of other no longer available conventional bullets fail from time to time..Mostly they did their job, but they all failed ocassionally...

I don't want to deal with that again, that is over for me...today I use premium bullets for all my hunting, its a cheap price to pay for not having those long tracking jobs and sad days that come behind the use of conventional bullets...but most of us have to learn everything the hard way, its the nature of man I think...

Me, I will use a Nosler if I want to save money, it always works for me and it does not cost much more than a conventional bulk bullet, and you can even buy seconds for goodness sake..

You gotta be pretty darn cheap to not justify a dollar bullet on game, especially when you consider the price of hunting today, or even the cost of a tank of gas to go hunting.

It really should be a non issue in my books...Use a premium.

quote:

Me, I will use a Nosler if I want to save money, it always works for me and it does not cost much more than a conventional bulk bullet, and you can even buy seconds for goodness sake..

You gotta be pretty darn cheap to not justify a dollar bullet on game, especially when you consider the price of hunting today, or even the cost of a tank of gas to go hunting.

Ditto.

In my view, there are three tiers of bullets out there:

1. SUPER PREMIUM GAME BULLETS:

• Trophy Bonded Bear Claws
  
• NorthForks
• TSX
• Norma Oryx
  

2. PREMIUM BULLETS:

• Partitions
• Grand Slams
• Interbonds
• Woodleighs
  and similar...
  

3. NON-GAME BULLETS

Nuff said!!

I have used a number of conventional bullets to shoot Deer and NPs as well as TBBCs, etc. for both Deer and Elk. I frequently hunt, trek and live in small tents, alone in very remote wilderness in B.C. where Grizzly attacks occur with increasing frequency; I have not used anything other than NPs, SAFs, TBBCs and Kodiaks for several years. I have no intention of deviating from this and would love to get some NorthForks.

All you have to do is get within 30 ft. of an aggressive Grizzly once, just once, especially with your absolutely essential survival gear in your pack which you cannot abandon to distract him....you will never want to use ordinary bullets again. As to Nosler PTs, I have seen more one shot kills on Elk and Grizzlies with these than anything else and they are my first choice. With a good crf .338 Win. loaded with 250 NPs at 2700 fps-mv, I will hunt anything on this continent with absolute confidence....if, I practice enough!

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
I'd turn around Seafire's silly shampoo analogy and pompous arm chair psycho-analysis and say; "I think the game is worth it."

It amazes me how what should be an exchange of information and experience turns a little cold and into an I'm right and you're full of the soft brown mushsy stuff. I can well understand how most may feel that hi vel low to medium sec. density needs well engineered bullets. I can also understand that non "premium" bullets are well engineered for modest to lower velocity levels especially in larger calibers but not exclusively,and that in many cases the premium bullet does not add any additional insurance. To me that is the mental lock down, and subsequent decision justification that should be investigated. Some buy into this philosophy "premium is ALWAYS BETTER" and that is conjecture at best. Leave the ego trips at home and uncover and study the evidence.

Two cases( and there are many);; What benefit would a premium 170 gr. bullet give you out of a 30-30 ?
Second case 180 gr. RN ( non premo) out of a .303; is there any real belief that a premium bullet would do the job better?

It would seem that individual assesment (cartridge, bullet, use) be made rather than a broad brush panacea Premium is ALWAYS BETTER.

It is reasonable that a guide doesn't want to waste time following a wounded deer or elk. If the contention is that it is the bullet causing this mostly and not placement than it, to me, would be reasonable for the guide to make sure of what his clients are useing and if the guide is not satisfied to use gentle persuasion to correct it well before the hunt.

Now if the pontificators kind of get your goat and you enjoy just putting a big one to them,well, it's your right to have a field day I guess. roger

last year, whilst sitting around the camp fire, I asked my hunting buddy Old Bob; he's 76 and still goes stalking, what was the best rifle he had had?
"30-06" came a quick reply. "I shot thousands of deer with my 30-06."
"What ammo did you use Bob?"
"Army surplus, I used to grind the tip off and expose the lead"
"Work well did it?"
"Yep. My mates used to call my 30-06 the Lucky Rifle."
"Did you loose many?"
"Not with the 30-06!"
Bob is still a good shot though he carries a BSA Majestic in 243 now, which he admits, after a bit of teasing, is a little light in the bullet. None the less he bagged his stag and a pig last season.
Premium bullet users might scoff at the use of millitary ammo, just come and tell Old Bob, he will laugh in your face and tell you you are fussy.
Bob, a retired school teacher, is not known for story telling, if he says he shot thousands of dear with ground off millitary ammo, then he did.
He also told me that when he was undergoing Teacher training, as a mature student, he used to have to come home on a Wednesday afternoon in order he could go hunting and shoot a couple of animals. One was for the wife and young son to eat, he sold any others for grocery monies.
When Bob was a young fella there was little to go round and nothing to spare. People made do with what they had and just got on with things.
I doubt he knows what premium bullets are.

During WW2 when game was plentiful and ammo non-existent my relatives all used milsurp ammo with the nose ground off. Accuracy was still fine and performance on game was apparently satisfactory. I don't think you could call it a premium bulet though.

I use mostly Hornady inter-lock bullets for deer

in any gun that I'll use.

A freind went Buffalo hunting and shot a buffalo

two times. [He had a 338 Lupal shooting 250gr

bullets they were the bullets that come with

bought ammo for the lupal.] These bullets came

apart and the Buffalo just stood there for 1/2

hour before the others finally bumped into him

and knocked him over on his side dead. While

cutting up the meat they found the rounds. The

lead came out of the bullet. That told me if a

hunt cost money to make sure my rounds are the

kind that don't come apart. NOSLER PARTITIONS