For Deer/Bear/Cougar/Elk/Moose what is wrong with non-premium bullets and what is the factor that makes a Premium bullet a must?

For the average hunters who hunts with .243-.338 caliber bullets is there a Non-Premium bullet brand that can be called the best for all hunting if in the right weight by a majority opinion?

You are lumping a lot of different animals together. For elk moose and the big bears penetration is more important than deer or Mt. lions. All bullets will work with proper placement. The premium bullets will give better performance especially under less than perfect conditions. IMHO.

There was a test done a while back, with results posted here, that showed penetration and weight retention for 180 grain 30 cal bullets, at various impact speeds.

My summary of the test was that with standard bullets, penetration actually decreases above 2800 fps... bullet mushrooms more, and tends to break up.

The three standard brands all fared about equally. That surprised me. I had supposed that the Hornady Interlock and the Speer HotCor would have better weight retention than Sierra.

Premium bullets do noticeably better at impact speeds above 2800 fps.

Some premium bullets do significantly better at all impact speeds. The Barnes X makes a significantly longer wound channel at all speeds.

My bottom line was that for most chores, the common bullets are fine. If you're shooting a magnum, and think you might have a close-in shot, or if you're shooting a caliber that is a little light for the game, then premium bullets are probably worth the cost.

Thanks for the reply, I'm just trying to see how people justify what they use and why they use it wiht Premium vs. No-premium bullets.

So many people kill a lot of animals every year with over the counter ammo that is not bonded, partitioned or coated and they fill their tags acordingly. Ever since I personally started reloading I've used nothing but premiums(Barnes and Partitions) and they have worked well but what is the "Kryptonite" about standerd bullets that makes people say NO in the Reloading isles and magazines?

quote:

Originally posted by ELKMAN2:
You are lumping a lot of different animals together. For elk moose and the big bears penetration is more important than deer or Mt. lions. All bullets will work with proper placement. The premium bullets will give better performance especially under less than perfect conditions. IMHO.

That is the whole purpose. It's cheap insurance.

First off we don't all agree on what a "premium" bullet is!!! example: I don't consider Nosler's Partition a premium bullet.....others disagree.....and of course they're wrong again!!!
For the most part they are a bonded bullet meaning the lead core is bonded to the jacket. There's also the monolithics (copper only and machined to shape) such as Barnes and Failsafes and others. Then the crossbreds.....such things as the Northforks and Speer's TBBC.

In pure bonded bullets there's accubonds, interbonds, Scirocco and Remington's bonded core Lokt.
Now to the question:

quote:

For Deer/Bear/Cougar/Elk/Moose what is wrong with non-premium bullets and what is the factor that makes a Premium bullet a must?

For all except moose and elk there's no need for a premium bullet. These truly are not big game. These animals can be killed as easily as ever in the last 100+ years. Even big game such as Moose and elk are still dispatched with conventionasl bullets.....

Here's where I set the line.....when the COST of the hunt is high I'm very willing to spend the few extra dollars to shoot the very best bullet I can find. For me that's the TBBC, Northforks or A-Frames. On a caribou hunt one can easily drop his caribou with the conventional bullets.....however when I have $4,000 in the trip I'll spend another $50 for the very best bullets to help prevent the loss of a trophy. Is it necessary?....certainly not.....It's just an insurance thing.....and that too is associated with a premium.....

We hunters have done without these premium bullets for scores of years and we don't need them today.....but now that they are there we will use them to help reduce the risk of loosing the trophy.

I wouldn't consider going on a plains game hunt with a box of core lokts.....but they'll work.

I think of premium bullets as "controlled expansion" bullets. Magnums that rely on higher velocity for their energies sometimes use lighter bullets to achieve those velocities, and lighter bullets, while starting faster, also slow down faster than heavier bullets. A person with such a magnum is therefore confronted with wide variances of impact velocities from 10 yards to 400 yards, say.

The magnum bullet has to expand, penetrate, and not blow up at those widely-varying ranges - a tough proposition for older design bullets, but newer, conrolled expansion bullets do it well. If you use the older, non-velocity based cartrides, IMO, the controlled expansion premiums aren't necessary, since the range of impact velocities isn't as great. The premiums will still work, of course, but they just aren't as necessary.

Jaywalker

I agree with Denton, the speed of the bullet dictates whether I use a premium bullet or not. For my magnums rifles I use premium bullets, for the standard rifles I use the most accurate hunting bullet. For dangerous animals I use a premium bullet, period. Good shooting.

I also agree with Denton.

A 30-06 loaded with a 180 gr. CoreLokt bullet is going to kill a lot of game. But load that same bullet in a 300 Weatherby, take a shot at less than a hundred yards, and you "might" be looking at a blown up bullet. It will work fine if the bullet doesn't hit bone. I used them for awhile in my 300 Weatherby, and killed a Grizzly with one, but wouldn't suggest that you do that. I also had Noslers with me on that hunt, but the range was long and that gun shot CoreLokts very accurately.

I like to use Nosler Partitions as my standard hunting bullet, the cost isn't that much of a concern because I know that I will always get the results they are known for.

I load Hornadys for target practice in the 2 rifles I use now, a 270 and a 338 Win Mag, but would use them for everything besides DG. The 250 Grain Hornady would more than likely work perfect at the velocity they would reach in the 338 Win Mag for DG, but why chance it?

I can't figure out a good reason NOT to hunt with premium bullets, and I mean ANY big game hunting, including deer. And even then, there are some bullets that get passed-off as "premium" (i.e., Speer Grand Slam) that I simply won't hunt with.

I've found that good premium bullets work well on just about everything, but I can't say that for many non-premium bullets, and I've had some of these come apart, not penetrate well, etc.

Besides, I usually establish a single load for a give rifle and use it for everything I'll hunt with that rifle. For example, I might use my .300 Win. Mag. for pronghorn, mule deer, elk, Texas whitetails, and African plainsgame all during the same year, and I'll use the same 180 gr. Nosler Partiton load to shoot the whole works. Based on a great deal of use, I know the Partition will work superbly on everything from whitetail to eland, while I've had non-premiums of the same weight come apart and not get inside, such as the 180 gr. Hornady Inter-Loct. So why not stick with one great, proven bullet, especially since it drops even small stuff just as well as the more problematic non-premium?

Cost is a non-issue. Price the cost of conducting even your own elk and mule deer hunts, then factor in bullet cost. The price difference is a drop in the bucket, and I don't believe in stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime............

AD

A good old timer's trick is to use a bullet with a sectional density about 20% higher than the premium bullit hotshot youngsters use. Say, a 220 gr Hornady or Seirra SMP in place of a 180 gr Whizbanger Premium. Don't tell anyone, but the 220s will be more reliable killers and you get to learn how to adjust a bit for trajectory...i.e., learn how to SHOOT.

I agree with alot of what Denton said....

The nosler bullets are great bullets but I don't see any real difference in the performance of the nosler vs. hornady, corelokt etc.

Jack Oconner once tested some 180 gr corelokts by shooting through the shoulders of a dead grizzly with a 30-06. I think he backed up about 75 yards and all of the bullets penetrated completely through both shoulders.

I've done most of my hunting with Hornady bullets which is not alot compared to some of the posters but I've always had good results..never a failure. I used the .338 for plains game and used 225gr Hornady bullets. I recovered one bullet, under the skin, far side, from a Grants gazelle, quartering shot. It weighed 115grs. Very dead Grants not alot of bullet left.

I'm still not sold on the bonded bullets. I shot a hog, about 200lbs. at 75 yards with 180 Trophy bonded bear claw, 300wsm, Quartering shot..just like on the grants, recovered the bullet just under the skin (just like the grants). Weighed 176gr but this bullet is a full 3/4" across one part. I think a Barnes of a similar weight, the petals would have folded back and penetration would have been complete.

IMHO, premium bullets come into their own for fast shooting small caliber magnums for big game and other special applications.

Also on dangerous game like the cape buffalo Barnes bullets are hard to beat IMO. I have a friend that has used 350gr Barnes X in a .416 Rigby, Ruger magnum rifle loaded to near Weatherby ballistics exclusively for buffalo and plains game. That load has taken quite a few buffalo. Also our own Saeed has had great results with the Barnes.

I think the best insurance on a hunt is to use the correct caliber for the animal hunted. I wouldn't be hesitant at all hunting a grizzly or a moose with a .338 with a 250gr Hornady or corelokt etc., for elk .338 with .210 gr noslers or 225gr hornady, deer .270 with 140gr corelokts or hornady, bear..some .30 caliber rifle 180gr hornady, corelokt etc.

Premium bullets are made by the bullet companies to sell more bullets and make more money. IMO it's kind of like buying bottled water,. It's really not needed but I do it sometimes.

You're talking non-sense. An "old timer's trick"???

Call it what you will, but I call it an ill-conceived, illogical stratagem that comes at a higher fundamental cost than I'm willing to pay for a premium bullet.

So I'm supposed to trade a premium bullet of high BC and proven structural integrity for a heavier, non-premium bullet with a lousy BC and questionable construction? For the sake of WHAT????????? An exercise in hold-over??????

One of my friends loaded 220 gr. Hornadys in his .30-06 one year for elk. He was presented with a frontal chest shot on a bull at less than 100 yds., and that bullet barely got inside before it blew up, and that bull ran for about 150 yds. before it fell over. I help trail and field dress that bull, and I do not speak second-hand information.

That same season I shot a bull at about 100 yds. at a front quartering angle with a 180 gr. Fail-Safe from my .300 Win., and that bull dropped where he stood. The bullet broke the left shoulder, blew up the lungs, detached the heart, and exited. It might have WEIGHED less than the 220 Hornady by 40 grains going in, but there was no comparison between the performance of the two bullets, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Bullet construction counts for far more than bullet weight, and "old timers" wisdom be dipped..........

AD

The factor = Mental Attitude

I shoot bonded bullets when velocity exceeds 3100 fps AND the size of the animal requires a lot of penetration.

I shoot standard bullets at all game smaller than elk. I have shot a few deer with my 300 win and decided that the heavy bonded bullets didn't expand as rapidly or transfer as much energy to the animal as I like.

I shoot Accubonds or Interbonds in high velocity rifles where I may have to shoot from 50 to 500 yards. The higher BC give me less wind drift and more energy at long range, and the bonded bullets holds together better if shoot an elk at close range.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum61:
For Deer/Bear/Cougar/Elk/Moose what is wrong with non-premium bullets and what is the factor that makes a Premium bullet a must?

For the average hunters who hunts with .243-.338 caliber bullets is there a Non-Premium bullet brand that can be called the best for all hunting if in the right weight by a majority opinion?

Nothing is wrong with NON premo bullets at all...

Premium just give a wider margin for success in most instances.... although sometimes not better accuracy....

As far as those who say " Why risk a cheap bullet on an expensive hunt" I chalk this up to good marketing and gullible people. If you feel you need a spendy bullet to not screw up a hunt, then you either need a bigger bullet, and be a better shot...

I think they got the idea from women's shampoo manufacturer who came up with the slogan " It costs more but .. 'I'm' worth it!"

Strictly catering to egos!

I admit Noslers and some of the other bullets perform better than others at times, but it now way regulates the NON Premo bullets as junk....

For those that feel they need a premium bullet, then have at it.... sure it impressed your hunting buddies, but for a properly placed bullet it neither impresses or unimpresses the head of game that just got shot...

Too many people get hung up on the concept that something that costs more is better than something that costs less.... Cost doesn't make anyone "better" at all at anything...

Like I use to tell my brother the computer Nerd....YOU can put lipstick and a dress on a pig but all you still have is a pig...

cheers
seafire

I use premiums just because to me the cost difference is not a big deal first off, and secondly they do give an edge for "not so ideal" shots on game (tailpipe shots, etc that you'd have to completely pass up if using standard cup-n-core bullets). Also if you're shooting a somewhat light-for-game cartridge (like a .243 for elk for example) then in addition to picking your shots very carefully and conservatively, you need all the help you can get as far as bullet performance. Premiums can sometimes give you this if you use the right bullet for the job.

In reality for the average deer hunter shooting small to medium deer at woods ranges the standard old core-lokt or power-points will drop them very nicely with good shot placement.

I use premiums because I can, not because they're always necessary. Most of the time in fact they're not, but in choosing premiums I'm prepared for the 10% of the time when they make the difference.

MY hunting partner and I are HUGE fans of Nosler Partitions, because based solely on our combined first hand experiences, thay work at all velocities and ranges with in our effective range. We have killed both Caribou and elk at distances from 60 yards to 400 and without exception the Partitions worked to perfection.

I will be the first to say that there are now and hve been for some time bullet designs out there that have a higher incident of retained weight than a partition, but for non-dangerous game no other bullet will kill any better at velocities from 2900fps down to 1800fps than a Partition. Some are just as good, but IMHO none will do it any better at the extream ends of the velocity sectrum than a Partition. Partitions have IMHO the best combination of accuracy, high BC, expansion and pennitration.

Having said that, I plan on doing some expansion tests on the new Accubonds quite soon. If the Accubonds live up to all the hype Ive read of late, claims have been made it ecentually preforms like a bonded core Partition with out the partition, and is potentually capable of better accuracy than the Partition.

For the record I shoot a .338wm and my friend shoots a .300wm.

Allen,
As you can read in my post I said IMHO and will certainly bow to your post as you have experienced many more hunts than I but....

I just think and will stand by my statements, that there is a logical approach to picking a certain caliber rifle for hunting a certain animal. Caliber and bullet weight, in my mind are much more important than just using a premuim bullet. And...the most important aspect is the shooter, the guy pulling the trigger.

In your example of the elk hunt proves the merit over one bullet over another. Just as my example shows no different results at all.

As far as low BC and inadequate construction. Hornady bullets are very well constructed and have very high bc's.

So to answer this question:

"For the average hunters who hunts with .243-.338 caliber bullets is there a Non-Premium bullet brand that can be called the best for all hunting if in the right weight by a majority opinion?"

My vote goes to Hornady. Except on quartering elk

I have nothing against premium bullets. I may be using some 168gr Barnes in a 300WSM this year just to try them out...if they shoot accurate in my rifle...which I have hopes but doubts. The Hornady bullets have always, always been more accurate in my rifles than the Barnes and Failsafes.

I respect your opinion, alot, but I'll stand by mine. Camo and bottled water aren't necessary. Just wear some dark clothes and take a water jug from the house..just as good.

This is all for fun...

quote:

The nosler bullets are great bullets but I don't see any real difference in the performance of the nosler vs. hornady, corelokt etc.

I take exception to that, I have not seen any Hornady bullets that perform as consistanly on game as the Nosler's. It's not too noticeable on deer sized game but factor in elk/moose and the Noslers do what they are designed to do. When talking about Core Loc's I just don't have enough experience hunting them to say much, one antelope with a 165 gr 30-06, just isn't enough to bother commenting on.

While we are on this often bantered subject, my stash of heavy 175 gr 7mm bullets is getting low. I can get more Noslers, but the Barnes originals have gone the way of the dodo bird, and what I have left are being saved as I have a very good dialed in load on my 7x57. So I am looking at working with another heavy bullet for my new 280. I will for sure work with some Nosler loads, but I was thinking of giving the 160 gr A-Frame a try. Anyone used this, target data is nice as I want to know how they shoot, but what I really want to know is how these work on elk sized game and up.

For me it's pretty simple; if the impact vel. may be above 2600fps or so, then I want a premium type bullet. I desire penetration from any reasonable angle on any size game, so that also factors in. Or one can just use the excellant Nosler partition in any flavor & have confidence.

quote:

It's not too noticeable on deer sized game but factor in elk/moose and the Noslers do what they are designed to do

Reading through this I will add, when your using 6mm and 25 Cal cartridges, the Nosler's make a big difference on deer sized game. ( I was thinking 7mm and 30 cal when I wrote that.

If hunting with a 250 Savage, 257 Rob or even a 25-06 for deer I will take a 115 gr Nosler hands down. I haven't worked with premium bullets in this caliber, but I have seen a lot of dismal performance with other 25 bullets. I lump the Speer, Hornady and Sierra bullets as second choice in this caliber. And although I am not advocating any of the above as elk cartridges, I have seen a couple of elk tagged with a 257 Rob and Nosler Partitions. And the Noslers did what they always do, deep pentetration, almost perfect mushrooming, and excellent wieght retention.

I'm also becoming quite a fan of the Nosler Accubond in 338 caliber. The 2 loads I'm using right now shoot incredibly accurate. Velocity is a little over 2800fps for the 225 grain bullet. I'm going to try them this year, and if they perform like I think they will, they might become the bullet of choice for me.

Once you develope your loads, shooting bullets thet likes of swifts or northforks, don't add a whole lot if anything to ammo or hunt costs. Gee I bought 200 140 gr TBBC in 6.5 from Jack Carter when he was still alive and making bullets. It took 10 to get the load I wanted, and the other 190 or so, are reserved for shooting big game. I have shot some 50 head so far with those bullets, I still have 118 left. Now I had these for well a good 16 or 17 years now. On a per shot a cup of coffee cost more. Because we americans like fast cartridges, that pretty much has been the driving force with bullets. How to get a 180 gr bullet at 3500 fps hold together at 50 feet and still expand well at 600 yards! Along the way even standard's like the .30-06 or 270 have benifited greatly from the truly great bullets we have today.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:

One of my friends loaded 220 gr. Hornadys in his .30-06 one year for elk. He was presented with a frontal chest shot on a bull at less than 100 yds., and that bullet barely got inside before it blew up, and that bull ran for about 150 yds. before it fell over.

AD

Yep, not too long ago I posted something of the 30 cal 220 corelokt. A police lieutenant friend of mine shot his bear with his .06 at 8 or so yards and the bullet didn't even exit. This surprised some of the readers.

I don't know why because round nose big bullets are not designed primarily for penetration. They are designed for energy at close range and violent expansion, hence the large amount of lead exposed at the nose.

After I posted that not so long ago, I went to the range and fired a 220 corelokt and a 180 Btip into jugs of water. The remmy bullet made it to the 3rd jug (barely) while the btip made it to the 4th...50 yards.

Ultimately there are a few excellent points made thus far on this thread.

1) a premium bullet is not necessary according to some because not all big game are big and they've been killed long before premiums were around.

2) generally speaking, there is formidable argument in favor of a premium bullet for a bag full of reasons.

What we have to ask ourselves is why did the "premium" bullet come about in the first place? Obviously, someone wasn't too happy with conventional bullets.

I think it was Mr. Nosler who was dissatisfied with bullet performance on a bull moose he shot with a conventional bullet. I could be wrong but I think that is what got him started.

I personally like insurance. And to me a premium bullet is one that overall costs more than a plain jane copper jacket lead core, has improved concentriciy/uniformity, is either bonded, partitioned in some fashion, or has enhanced BC with a plastic tip. Yes, I think the Btip is a premium bullet but on the bottom of the barrel.

Looking at the big picture, you should buy what YOU like and shoot what YOU want and don't look back. I don't owe anyone an explanation on why I hunt or what with or what I do with an animal once it is killed. If you are happy with your reloading and results stick with it. I agree it is nice to read other opinions but I do not see where the cost of the bullets themselves is a big enough factor. (if that was even an issue).

Allen Day:

quote:

I can't figure out a good reason NOT to hunt with premium bullets

I offer one very good reason. Don't use a Barnes X which has a propensity to pass completely through an animal when there might be a chance that bullet could kill or wound another animal standing close behind it. Especially if you can't afford two trophy fees.

And now the definitive answer to Magnum61's question:

Sierra Matchkings!!!!!!!
The majority opinion of longdistance shooters on AR.

quote:

What we have to ask ourselves is why did the "premium" bullet come about in the first place? Obviously, someone wasn't too happy with conventional bullets.

Doc....that statement is key to the entire thread.....conventional bullets left something to be desired and those of us that have hunted (even deer) for years have noticed poor performasnce at times. The premium bullet was to fill a need.....a market....the market wasn't created by a guy that wanted to sell bullets!!!

Look, I will give you a third world hunter's point of view....
As you can imagine it's not easy to find bullets in Uruguay, premium or not !!!

Some of us are lucky enough to have friends in the States that bring us bullets and also sometimes we bring them from Argentina.

So, the point is, in my not very long life (38) I've seen axis deers, fallow deers, red stags, pigs, buffalo, capybaras, goats,etc,etc being shot and kill with partitions, balistic tips, hornadys, core lockts, swifts, barnes, sierras, speers, etc,etc
and all them have had the job done, and when some animal escaped was due to poor shot placement, not because bullet quality (only once shooting an already down but still alive waterbuff with a 308 win and balistc tips the animal don't show much reaction).

I agree with something, a high velocity impact in a thick bone at a short distance calls for a good constructed bullet, but despite that I don't see game escaping because the bullet was not premium!!!

As someone said, it gives you a plus, and if you are after a big $$$ trophy why not spending a few more bucks in a premium??

I don't no...for me it's pure science that WE, hunters, love to talk while we are not hunting....

If I am after a difficult and "not every day" trophy, I will go with premiums, but for shooting normal stuff, I will not worry much...

L

Hunting Elk on public land means that I am only going to get one or two (if I'm lucky) shots all year. That is hunting almost every day of the season. I can't blow the shot.

I believe that conventional bullet will work fine 95 percent of the time. I use the premiums because of the other 5%.

Allen, let me understand this: your friend's bull ran a grand total of 150 yards before falling, and the bullet failed? Somehow I don't understand that thought process. I have heard horror stories about bulls being shot to doll rags because of a poor first shot "juicing them up" and they run. If you only had to walk 150 yards to retrieve your buddy's bull, I would say the bullet did exactly what it was supposed to do...
I have a friend who lung shot a nice whitetail this past winter with a 120-grain X out of a 7 mag. Little hole in and little hole out, VERY little blood. Difficult tracking...
Use too heavy a jacketed bullet on thin-skinned game and there will be it will "pencil through", with very little internal damage and almost no blood, ensuring the animal runs and is difficult to find, in all likelihood. Likewise, shoot a bull elk with a Sierra and you probably have the same trouble. But match the bullet to the game being pursued, and all is well.
And although I will never shoot another GS at an elk, I love the way they push lung tissue out in front of them and shoot through bone without shattering it all to gravel-sized pieces. They will continue to be my whitetail, hog and "whatever else in Texas" load, and probably even on mule deer, if I ever get the chance to go back out west. They work wonderfully for me. (But I will use Nosler SBs on elk...)

quote:

Originally posted by denton:
There was a test done a while back, with results posted here, that showed penetration and weight retention for 180 grain 30 cal bullets, at various impact speeds.

My summary of the test was that with standard bullets, penetration actually decreases above 2800 fps... bullet mushrooms more, and tends to break up.

The three standard brands all fared about equally. That surprised me. I had supposed that the Hornady Interlock and the Speer HotCor would have better weight retention than Sierra.

Premium bullets do noticeably better at impact speeds above 2800 fps.

Some premium bullets do significantly better at all impact speeds. The Barnes X makes a significantly longer wound channel at all speeds.

My bottom line was that for most chores, the common bullets are fine. If you're shooting a magnum, and think you might have a close-in shot, or if you're shooting a caliber that is a little light for the game, then premium bullets are probably worth the cost.

AND at significantly reduced velocities at extended ranges. At low velocities, many "cup- and-draw" standard bullet types will merely penetrate with no expansion, whereas a bullet like the Nosler partition jacket has a very soft front section which WILL expand at these low speeds!

Me thinks the old adge "Penny wise and pound foolish" applies here.

I think most of the ammo manufacturers know that their products are going to be used on deer and are designed accordingly. In my experience you will relatively seldom have a failure with factory ammo on deer, assuming a reasonably appropriate caliber and bullet weight are used. Elk, moose and bear are another story altogether. If I only hunted deer with a big game caliber I might try to save a couple of bucks. On an expensive trip for big game there just isn't anything to be gained with Core-locts, Power points, Hi Shok, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
I think most of the ammo manufacturers know that their products are going to be used on deer and are designed accordingly. In my experience you will relatively seldom have a failure with factory ammo on deer, assuming a reasonably appropriate caliber and bullet weight are used. Elk, moose and bear are another story altogether. If I only hunted deer with a big game caliber I might try to save a couple of bucks. On an expensive trip for big game there just isn't anything to be gained with Core-locts, Power points, Hi Shok, etc.

Roger that!!

Alot of fine points in this forum. As a consistent hunter and shooter here in my state I tend not follow up with a second or third shot if not necessary. I mean why use a "standard" bullet to kill when that means you may have to shoot another shot or more? Some say moose are relatively "easy" to kill -- I tend to agree in most cases cause we are only talking .30-30 range BUT! You cannot always have the "perfect" circumstance so why not with the velocities that are about this day use a "premuim" bullet or round? Meat hunters tend to favor what works with what animal and what enviroment. With my .375 RUM I either use a 270XLC or a 300 SAF but when I shoot my .30-30AI I use a Partition 170. You must know what your capabilitie are and what you intend to hunt. By the way you have two species of Moose the Shiras and the Alaskan --- completely two different beasts. When I shoot my .270 I use a true bonded bullet, knowing full well at those velocities a "standard" bullet causes a lot of meat damage so again I use SAF's or Bear Claw, Barnes or the Scirocco. Anything can kill it is how it kills that counts.

Call me retro but I only use 2 time-honored and proven bullets for large game hunting, Interlocks and Partitions, with one excepion (45-70, 405gr Rem or hardcast) using the following as a rule of thumb:
- NA game larger than deer -Partition
- NA game that bites back - Partition
- MV edging or higher than 3000 fps/anticipated Terminal Velocity exceeding 2800 fps- Partition
- Most deer hunting - Interlocks (see above velocity exception however).
I'm an avocate of penetration and try to use heavy-for-caliber projectiles for large game hunting i.e, 175s in 7mm RM, 150s in .270 Win, 140s in 6.5x55 (haven't tried 160s yet), etc. I usually develop loads with both Interlocks and Partitions of the same weight for each game rifle, just in case. Interlocks work well within their intended performance envelope. Partitions just work well...period.

Doubless, that 220 didn't get deep inside and keep on going where it could to the most good. Only a portion of the bullet's core got into the lungs, and that's what brought that bull down after it ran through a jumble of jackpines, deadfall, etc. It did NOT, in any way, perform or penetrate as well as the better constructed (but lighter) 180 gr. Fail-Safe I used on my bull. I am allergic to elk that keep on going after they're hit. I want to break them down and anchor them on the spot if possible, and I expect a bullet to be able to do it's job under less than perfect conditions.

Seafire, your comment that premiums have been used as a vehicle to hoodwink the "gullible" is absolutely ridiculous. Premiums were invented for a reason, and that is to provide superior, consistent performance on big game under less-than-ideal circumstances.

Premiums have kept many hunters alive, and I owe MY life to Fail-Safe and other top premium bullets that got inside and kept on going no matter what. Deal with Cape buffalo at twenty feet, charging grizzly at point-blank range, or lions so close that you can smell them and then try to justify penny-ante poker considerations over bullet cost. I have dealt with all of the above (plus more problematic elk), and that's exactly why I'm a fan of premium bullets.

What's the mystery with all this????

AD

I call "Premiums" "One Percent Bullets"... ie, you don't "need" them 99% of the time. Problem is you never know where or when that 1% will show! Especially for elk I never use anything except premiums as elk are tenacious, often present poor angles and will cover a ridiculous amount of turf with a marginal hit. Except for big bears, I doubt they're necessary for the rest of NA game including moose. Still, I tend to work up an elk load and use it for everything each season so I have no problem "wasting" an extra fifty cent's on a pronghorn... I'd turn around Seafire's silly shampoo analogy and pompous arm chair psycho-analysis and say; "I think the game is worth it."

Brad, all I can say is......... AMEN!

AD

quote:

Premium bullets are made by the bullet companies to sell more bullets and make more money

Making a profound quote like that, especially on an inernet board, just ain't right and sorta like saying something you wish you hadn't said.
It's just that I've been trying certain premium bullets and the accuracy has been less than stellar in my guns..so that's why I popped off. (it's OK..I feel better now.. )

So my apologies to the bullet makers for that statement. In general all of the bullet makers should be applauded for their efforts. It's quite a job they have. One guy wants a bullet to expand and stop in the animal another wants complete penetration. One shoots a .308 the other shoots one of the new super magnums. Behind the shoulder shots and quartering shots. Try to engineer that and make everybody happy!