The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 300 WM or 30-06Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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With both shooting 180gr bullets and 200 yards- 30/06. The 300 mag starts to shine with 200 gr bullets and longer ranges. | |||
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Admitedly, the larger the caliber the more power you have to play with, but do we tend to put so much emphasise on caliber.. I would be more inclined to place my faith in bullet construction and bullet placement..I also suggest one take into consideration other conditions such as weather, amount of walking involved and use that to pick the gun and caliber. Those long all day hikes in 100 plus weather bespeak a 30-06 to me, spot and stalk may suggest a .338 or 375...Sitting on a point waiting on a drive hunt or simular circumstance brings out the 300 H&H for instance, as does the high mountain country of RSA... I have shot a lot of Eland and I have seen others shoot a lot of Eland..I have used the 30-06, 7x57, 300 H&H and 375 H&H, and maybe the 416 Rem?? All did exactly the same thing, they killed the Eland.. I witnessed PH Philip Price, tumble a huge wounded Eland bull with a .243 Sako and a 100 gr. corelokt, at 100 yards, the bullet entered behind the flank and was lodged in the shoulder under the skin and was a perfect muchroom, thats a hell of a lot of penetration and a mighty small bullet. The 300s have a 50 to 75 yard advantage over the 06, and the 338 Win about the same as far as trajectory..The .375 is only equal in trajectory with the 06.. I'm sure the 300, 338 and 375 have an decent edge over the 30-06 in raw killing powder, but don't believe it is as much as some folks profess. I am pretty sure that bullet placement being the same, equal quality bullets being used, and all things equal such as range etc, that one would be hard pressed to observe any difference in killing power in any of the calibers mentioned..You get a slight edge with each additional upgrade in power, but thats about all. I have seen animals of all sizes wounded and had to be followed up, with both large and small calibers and mostly misplaced shots, a few bullet failures and just because of who knows what! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Is 300 fps a "little faster"? And 700 ft-lbs "not much difference"? Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Yes, but the qualifier here is the stated condition of shots taken on game at "200yds and in." From point-blank range to 200yds, none of the 300 mags will kill an animal any deader than the 30.06, especially if the '06 is loaded "heavy & fast," such as with the 220gn Speer Hot-Cores. Beyond 200yds, well, that's where all the 300 mags start leaving the '06 in the dust, ... and not just a "little bit." | |||
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I hate shooting anything less than the heaviest available projectiles. Plot your trajectry from there. It works. | |||
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You are overlooking the TTSX. If you are shooting at reasonable ranges it simply will not fail. The TSX is a pretty tough bullet and if something interferes with it's ability to expand you can certainly have an issue. Barnes took care of those issues with the TTSX. Ken.... Ken.... "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " - Ronald Reagan | |||
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We seem to have gotten off the subject with explanations of placement and bullet construction, etc. Its the WM...does all the 06 does and more, When the 6X6 gives a broadside at 375yds, the WM is the better option. Load the WM down and you have an 06. | |||
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A little late to the subject but as requested. I shot my Eland in 2012 with my custom mauser 30-06 using 168 gr. TTSX bullets handloaded to about 2850 fps. I shot the Bull quartering to me just inside the shoulder at approximately 60 yards.. He stood for about half a minute and then went down. Around 1400 pounds one shot. It was the only bullet recovered from 7 animals shot during the course of the hunt. The others were Red Hartebeest, 2 Blue Wildebeest, Zebra, Impala and Gemsbuck. | |||
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Yes, and I watched a hunter kill a bull elk in western Colorado with a 150 grain bullet out of a .270 at 500 + yards, verified by a range finder. I don't like the .30-06, never have owned one. Personally I prefer the .300 Win. Mag. or better still the .300 Weatherby, but from experience, size and speed will not take the place of accuracy. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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While I have not shot a lot of game with the 30/06, I have shot a LOT of game with the 308, and a LOT of game with the 300 Mags. I have used the 300 Weatherby and the 300 Win Mag Quite bit. Here are my random thoughts on the matter. B L O'Connor summed it up perfectly. The 300 Mag has about a Hundred yard advantage over the 30/06 in trajectory and energy, assuming identical bullets used in both. [However if you look at say Federal's factory specs for energy at say 500 yards, you will see that some 308 loads have higher energy than some 300 Win mag loads]... SO, IF you can take the additional recoil of the 300 Mag, and you are a hard holder, and can take advantage of the additional trajectory of the 300 Mag, AND you practice a bunch to be able to do so, then the 300 Mag is worth a look. IF NOT, then stick with the milder shooting 30/06, or the 308. I will add, that one advantage of the 300 Mag is to shoot 200gr Premium bullets, at high velocities, with their higher sectional densities. However; It is MUCH better to hit well with a 308 or a 30/06, than to try to shoot a 300 Mag that has too much recoil for you... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Phil, CHC didn't say it wasn't effective, he just said he didn't like it. Sort of like me and the 270. He never complained about my 30-06 in camp. For the question at hand, either the '06 or WM will do given the parameters specified. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Phil, Larry was correct. I will recommend a .30-06/.308 or a .270 to anyone that asks for my opinion of a rifle for them to hunt with, but PERSONALLY, FOR MY OWN USE, I do not want any of the 3. On top of that I rarely ever suggest any of the calibers I prefer to use, .300 Weatherby/.35 Whelen or .375 H&H, more especially if it is someone looking to purchase their first center-fire rifle. As far as I am concerned all most hunters need are one of the three, or if just one, the .30-06, but that does not mean I have to like it for my own use, now does it? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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OK, I'll buy into the controversy (and try to address some of the original question) I have shot Eland with my .308, I have seen them taken cleanly by .303's, '06's, and .338's, to name a few. KICKER: All of those animals were hunted in the Limpopo Bushveld, where shooting distances seldom exceed 150 yards. The moment distances go beyond that (and there are such areas where Eland are to be found), I'd have to opt for the Win Mag. Having said that, I'm in Mark Young / Blacktailer et al's camp on this one. No matter how effectively Eland can be put down with a .308" caliber under favourable conditions, it is NOT a RELIABLE Eland caliber in my reckoning. | |||
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 Yes, .308" bullets work, but bigger is more reliable. That doesn't just mean throwing them faster, but bigger. Personally, I would recommend something like a 225TTSX .338" (.514 BC) as an all-range eland bullet and in 375 there are the 235gn CEB extended range raptor, 250 gn GSC, and 250 gn TTSX. It's the bullet that does the work, so start with a bullet of choice and then choose the launching platform. My son and I think that a high BC bullet in a large diameter is ideal, so we are partial to the .416" 350 grain TTSX with a BC of .444 and a muzzle velocity of 2825fps. Sighted in at 2" high at 100 yards it is -21" low at 400 yards. That'll cover everything in Africa where an expanding bullet is used. No if, and's, or but's. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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+1 | |||
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CHC, I guess I am proof of your tag line "It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood."
As I assumed that when you said you didn't like the 30-06 that you did not recommend it. Thanks for clarifying that for me. And I will admit that while I do prefer the 30-06 over the various 300's, ( mostly due to familiarity and having never seen any difference in game killing ability ) I also load mine up so it is not that far behind the 300's. (200 gr Partitions @ 2700 fps) Arguing against either one is a loosing proposition. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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2700fps and 200 grains is on the hot side for a 30-06. I'm not doubting that some 30-06's can do this, but it is 3200+ ftlbs, where most -06 loads are held to 2800-3000ftlbs. Some hunters would be uncomfortable with pushing the margins. Maybe Superformance powder would work, or R17. Nosler lists 2688 as a max with R-22, and it is 50-100 fps beyond other max loads. (If you ran such loads in an 06, they would be pretty close to the Win Mag, but the same person might try pushing the Win Mag to 2900-3000fps. It helps to compare at equal pressures. [Nosler lists 71 grains IMR4831 for 2972fps with 200 partition. (That is practically a 338WM power level. But then Nosler lists a 4300ftlb load for 338WM 250 NP at 2780fps, and so it goes.)]) +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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59 grains of MRP and measured across my chrono. I have been shooting this load for almost 30 years in a number of rifles. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Sorry for the confusion with my statement. It is not a matter of feeling that the .30-06/.308/.270 and for that matter the .243 are inadequate or ineffective. They all have well proven track records on game. None of them have ever really flipped my personal trigger, I just happen to like larger calibers. For the average/normal hunter, the advantages the .300 Win./.300 Weatherby have over the .30-06 are unfortunately oft times negated by the shooters inability to accurately shoot their rifle. Magnums have to be shot just as accurately as the non-magnums, because all of that added speed and energy is a total waste if the shooter can not place their shots where they are supposed to go. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Great thread as I have bought myself a slightly used Kimber 8400 in 30-06 and have started to develop loads for the rifle. An interesting load you got there Phil, especially as Norma says max 55,7 grs of MRP with the 200 grs Norma Oryx bullet. This should give 2569 fps with a 24" barrel, again according to Norma. (The same Norma manual says max 57,9 grs MRP with the 180 grs Nosler PT, velocity 2654 fps) Our local Norwegian "Ladeboken" (The Loading Book) says max 59 grs of MRP with the 200 grs Oryx bullet. Velocity is measured to 2596 fps with a 24" Schultz and Larsen rifle. Looks like you got a "fast" barrel. Arild Iversen. | |||
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Most, if not all, reloading manuals, strive to keep their loads and pressures for the 30-06 well below what are normal for newer cartridges like the 7 mm and 300 Mags. Loaded up to the same pressure levels the 30-06 does quite well in comparison with the 300. In his "Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter" book Bob Hagle, who liked to run things as fast a possible, listed 60 grs of MRP with the 200 Partitions for 2816 fps from a 24 " bbl !! I worked up to that but decided to back it off a grain as I got better accuracy. I have since used the same load in many different rifles without a problem. But as all loading manuals caution, results may vary in your rifle. Plus there is a very real possibility that the MRP or Norma 205 of today is likely a bit different than the old batch that I am still working on. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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My standard handload in 7mm RM just blow off any reloading manual or manufactured load. not 50 fps but +200 fps Without any over presure sign ! I drive a 175 grains at 3050 fps. a 160 grains at 3150 fps. 25ic barrel and two powders (chronograph checked on 5 shots/ with witnesses). My powder charge are over reloading manual recommendation moreover I use an "enough" barrel length... Same for my 7/08, 243W, 338WM... Magnum or not... ballistic is ballistic... | |||
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the Norma MRP is one of the best powder available for heavy load with 30-06, 7mm RMG, 338 WMG. Few guys in US use Norma Powder, bless them ! | |||
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I just reread Hatcher. Cured me of any residual willingness to rely on "pressure signs" in exceeding pressure tested data. Unrealistic chrono figures are a no-go. This from the '40s. He debunks all the "pressure signs", "pressure ring", etc. preached by much later authors. I came away from the reread having more respect for Hatcher, the strength of most turnbolt actions, and the overall quality of our brass. Integrity of the brass case keeps us safe at the end of the day. I have nowhere near the field experience of most here, but have never seen a need to exceed 2950 fps w/180s in the .300 Roys. Wuss, I suppose. Am about to switch to the 200 NP based on recommendations made here. 2800 fps will be the goal, and plenty good for me. Funny that a hot '06 will do the same, but I feel better getting that from a fat .300 Roy case. Sam | |||
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From the OP's original post:
As a second rifle for shots inside 200yds, skip the 300 mags and get a 30.06 that's set up the same as your .375. But even for shots on African game inside 200yds, stick with loads using the premium 200gn or 220gn bullets. "Only accurate rifles are interesting." | |||
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The Roy will safely go 2900-3000fps. I would check for accuracy nodes anywhere between 2800 and 3000. On the thread: yes, a 200 grain partition in a 30-06 would be a great rifle to 200 yards. But you might want to shoot your eland with a 375 anyway. The shot is sometimes longish, so get the loads as accurate as can be, and practice for 300 yards, then everything is inside a comfort zone. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I've just finished working up a load with this same bullet in my 338 that shoots about .8. Very happy with that. | |||
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Reloder 33 gets those velocities without going over max. 75 grains and a 175-grainer gets 3028 from my Savage/Criterion 26-inch. 75 grains gets 3132 from a 160. Good safe, fast, accurate loads. | |||
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Why on earth (other than to stop a wounded one)would you purposely shoot an African animal in the ass? That is not a good statement coming from a professional outfitter. | |||
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+1...and the report of the 300 Win. Mag. is downright wicked..   | |||
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If a "Hunter" places their FIRST shot properly, they ain't gonna have to shoot ANYTHING in the ASS. Wake your asses up folks! Put your first shot where it is supposed to go and if the animal is NOT in a position so you can put that first shot where you want it to go, Do Not Take The Damn Shot!!!! Pretty simple concept. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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A weird phenomenon going on here. I agree with Crazyhorse. If a 30-06 aint big enough, you don't need a faster .30, you need a bigger bore. The .300 mags taking half again as much powder is just not worth the gain--that 1/2 more powder is more blast and recoil than anything else. | |||
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A 180 or 200 gr. Nosler Partition in a 30-06 or a 300 H&H will shoot thru an Eland lengthwise if you center the bullet keeping it off the large hip joint isn't a bad idea, and that's pretty easy to do as the eland is quite wide in the behind.. I witnessed PH Phillip Price, Swartkei Safaris shoot a wounded eland in the arse and his 100 gr. factory Rem corelokt penetrated to the base of the neck and was recovered under the skin perfectly mushroomed..Phillip is an extraordinary good shot and has shot many Eland with his Sako L-461 in .243, as have many Africans. I often wonder why American sportsmen think they need a much larger rifle than those that live off the land?..Do we tend to go overboard on caliber, or is that part of the ombiounce of hunting Africa..One reason might be is a bigger gun allows more room for error?? and that's probably true to some extent, but not by a hell of a lot. I feel if an African farmers kid or a PH can kill the larger PG with a 243, 303, 308,30-06, or 270,( popular calibers in RSA) then those calibers are acceptable to anyone that can shoot reasonably well...DG is a nuther ball game but again the PHs tend shoot less gun when they are hunting for themselves, than the guns they carry on backup with clients, they must think they shoot better than we do, and I'm sure in some cases that's true..They do know that the first shot is all important on DG, and makes up for a lot of mistakes. Bullet placement is the most important element in all hunting, then bullet construction, then caliber and in that order IMO. Age old discussion that has had many a campfire burn to ashes before retiring to the cots.  but the answer is so simple.Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, you have answered your questions by yourself. Because the locals have the experience, the track record and hence the confidence. Also proper knowledge of shot placement. Yes, the 243 works but a tourist hunter is better served with something bigger. | |||
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Ray, for the 1st time in my life, I'll take you up on this one. Sure - Eland can be killed with a .243, and I imagine that enough of them have been so done to death. This is no BS, but I shot my first Kudu bull with a .22LR. A frontal brain shot from what must have been 15 metres or less. But what if that bull had been quartering-on, with only a shoulder shot offered? My .22 Slug would have penetrated not much deeper than the skin. Extreme example, I know - but an Eland's humerus is a lot bigger than a Kudu's, as is a 30-06 a WHOLE lot bigger than a .22LR. So yes - bottom line is that you're going to be able to kill an Eland with light calibres, but not under all conditions. It does come down to shot placement, but that in itself limits the lighter calibres - they are going to have to pass up shots. | |||
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I'll see ya one and up you two.... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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For what it is worth, I think that the 300 WM is an inherently more accurate cartridge than the 30.06, especially with 180 grain bullets. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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The .300 RUM, Win Mag, Weatherby, etc. all become equal to a .30-06 at some point. The question is really what level of performance do you want? If you really don't shoot animals beyond 300 yards more burnt powder will do little for you. I have a couple .30-06's but rarely use them. Not because they don't work, but I've become quite fond of my .338WM and it works well. My confidense in it is above most of my other rifles. It shoot's and makes me look good. I also have a .300WM that rarely comes out either. My thought with it is to start playing at ranges beyond 600 yards with it. | |||
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Big Nate brought out the most reasonable point, especially if hand loading/reloading is part of the equation the amount of powder required by the .300 Win. Mag. and the .300 Weatherby to achieve only a few hundred fps over the .30-06 really seems ludicrous. As I have already stated, I do not like the .30-06, but do like the .300 Win Mag and the .300 Weatherby, but in reality, neither actually perform better than the .30-06 for the average hunter/shooter. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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