Hi

I already own a .223, 6PPC, 6,5x55 bolt and a 30/06 semiauto.

I have the opportunity to buy at the same low price a Rem700 BDL S/S in 30/06 and a Rem700 ADL in 7Rem mag.

On medium game i believe they are the same.
What do you think it's more accurate in the specific rifle? The 30/06 or 7rem mag?
Which caliber is inerently more accurate?
I reload.

Thank you Giovanni

I've found the Remington's to be darn good shooters out-of-the-box, regardless of caliber.
My personal opinion (since you asked...) is that the 30/06 provides more options, especially for a handloader, and is my hands down choice between the two. The 7mm Mag is a fine cartridge, but not one that I've ever been able to "warm up to".
Your results may vary....
Cheers,
Don

Hate to say this, but either one is a fine choice.

I believe that the 7mm RM is slightly better in longer ranges.

I'd go for the '06 for the same reason Mr. Edwards mentioned.

Not that much practical difference. 7mm RM starts to give you an advantage after 250 yards. 30-06 can use heavier bullets, better for larger animals. You have to decide which is more important for your hunting conditions. Realisticly under most conditions I doubt you'll see a difference.

30/06 is a fine rifle, especially if you reload, a lot of bullet choices and powder combinations, and you can better factory ballistics. Have a Rem in 7 mag. can't seem to reload it to factory ballistics, its overbore, but a fine rifle. I would pick the 30/06.

I traded my 30/06 in for a 7MMM Rem. years ago and looking back, I don't believe there's really much of a difference in practical terms. The 7MM shoots flatter, which is what sold me, but that is partially as a result of lighter bullets. I wouldn't change back though, not because I see any fault with the 30/06, but because I've come to the point where I know my cartridge, rifle combination very thoroughly and can make it live up to my expectations.
Grizz

It warms my hart to see how many guys picked my favorite cartridge. I would choose the 06 too !. Lots people seem to think the word magnum turns a rifle into a death ray.
If you are a really good shot and like to shoot game at great range, over 400 yards I might go with the 7 mag.
But for the vast majotity of shots the 30,06 is a great round. And though its a little light for moose I would use it to hunt them.
The only animal I would not hunt in north america with an 06 is the Big alkaskan bears.
I,m no big fan of stainless rifles. But I must admit a Quality SS 30,06 is just about the most all around usfull rifle there is...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Giovan22:

I already own a .223, 6PPC, 6,5x55 bolt and a 30/06 semiauto.

Take the 7mm rem!!!! I see very little use for two 3006's and the 7mm rem is a great caliber, suitable for almost any hunting, 140 or 150 grains for deer's etc. and 160-175 grain bullets for bigger stuff.

I have had a few 3006's and never liked the cartridge...

Cheers
/JOHAN

I own a 7mag and have shot it exstensively.Use it every year. That said,the 7 mag is probably one of the most overated magnums out there. Its one of the mildest recoiling magnums,which no doubt lends to its popularity.I think of the 7mag,as a magnum for those that can't handle magnum recoil.

On game,you won't be able to tell the differance in knock down power,between it and the 30/06. Everybody needs at least one good bolt gun in 30/06.

I'll have to say that I like the response from JOHAN and Sledder but I'm going to base this choise on another element.

I would go with the '06 because its a S/S gun and not the cheaper ADL.

If it helps any, I had this same quarl a long time ago and 300 win mag came home. Just leaned how to shoot it and I've been happy ever since and wont look back.

Good luck.

Giovan22

I'd say a little has to do with the distance you plan to shoot at as well as the weather you find yourself hunting in. I truly believe I was going to be shooting regularly over 300 yards for deer and smaller size game the 7MM would get the nod because it shoots flatter. If I was going to be hunting in a wet climate the SS gun gets the nod a whole lot easier to maintain. I also like the floor plate on the BDL it makes it a lot easier to unload the rifle.

They are both very fine choices easy to load for and each has a pretty wide selection of bullets. I have one of each and as to inherent accuracy my feeling is they are so close you'd be splitting hairs.

Tough choice...

I'd say go with the stainless rifle, getting a 30-06 a bolt action when you've already got a semi-auto isn't "redundant" as the power level you can reload the 30-06 to in a semi-auto is sharply limited.

I have both and I load them very differently.

While I don't consider a 30-06 and a 7mmMag redundant either the stainless '06 BDL is certainly a better deal
than a "black" 7mmMag ADL

I like both cartridges, and though they overlap
consideraby in power and capability the 30-06 is better
at tossing 150 and 165gr bullets than the 7mmMag is.

The 7mm with 140's has some real "reach out and touch"
that the 06 bolt rifle can only do with very lightweight bullets
and then because they are relatively poor ballistic designs
on 110 and 125gr 30cal bullets still aren't really "long range"

Because of the 7mm's greater potential for high velocity it pretty much pushes you into "premium type" bullets.
It's up to you if "premium" means Bonded core (accubond)
partitioned (Nosler partition of Swift A-frame) or monometal
(barnes).

the issue isn't bullet performance at long range but
rather the tendency for cheap bullets to blow apart if you are forced to take a close shot.

While the 30-06 also places demands on bullet designs
it isn't as bad as with a 7mmMag.

Many people who have or have had both can tell you that though there isn't much of a difference in actual mechanical recoil (slightly more with a 7mm and a hot 140gr handload
than with a similar load with a 165 in the 30-06) the common perception is that the 7mm kicks more because of it's significantly louder/sharper "bark" from the muzzle.

while a 30-06 works well from a 22" tube (and better from a 24") the 7mm NEEDS a 24" tube and works even better from a 26".
my 7mm's have all had 26" tubes, I've been shopping for a 7mm for a while and have passed up several otherwise acceptable rifles because they had 22 and 24" barrels, I was holding out for a 26".

Ultimatly it's your choice, but I think the stainless 30-06 is a better deal if both rifles are the same price.

Now Dave is going to jump in and ask how many elk I've killed, how many 7mmMags I've owned, how many 30-06's I've owned and what animals I've killed with each...
And probably argue with my statement that the 30-06 is at it's best with 165's....


AllanD

I don't really believe in the "inherently more accurate" cartridge idea. Thee are accurate rifles and just about any cartridge can be made to shoot very well in the right rifle. Like JayJohnson, I like the 7rm for lighter game or heavier game farther out. For elk in close, I would want the bigger bullets of the 06. It really comes down to the rifle you want & the type of hunting you intend. You already have an 06, so why not the 7rm?

I had a very similar dilema about a year ago. I wanted a new hunting rifle so I chose a 7mag in Remmy CDL. I already owned a 760 '06 was the reason I went with the 7mag. If I'm expecting to hunt in more open areas where longer shots may be needed, I take the big 7. If I'm going hunting in the brush or heavier timber, I take the shorter pump '06.

Thank you everyody for all the info.

I actually hunt only roe-deer in a zone where 200 meters it's a long shot and when hunting in area where is possible to meet wildboars i take the 6,5x55 that with 140 speer hot-cor at 2600fps give me really good results.
I'd like to buy a bigger bore with the excuse of a better caliber for fallow deer and mouflon (6,5x55 it's good enough), but the real reason it's that i want a new toy to play with new bullets, loads etc.
I don't like to shoot game at long distance althoug i have the opportunity to train four times a month with my duty PSG-1 and have great confidence in long shoots.
From you input I believe i'm going to buy the 30/06.

P.s. sorry for my english and thank you again

Ditto Magnum61; if you can get a SS BDL or an ADL for the same low price, jump on the BDL. You can always sell it if you don't like it and go back for another ADL. You'll lose big time the other way around.

I think a better battery would be a 280 rem and a 30-338. But Ive had both and prefer the 06, the biggest difference is in the recoil. The 7mm Mag is a fine chambering though.

I have both and my go to rifle is the 7mm with the 140 gr at 3200 and 175 gr at 2950 its all you need for all but the largest game. Roe are small and a flat shooter in the 130 to 140 range bullet is dead on out to 400 if you need it.Good hunt with whichever you chose.

Have you forgot What year it is??????????? See my signature for a clue! The only thing that a 7Mag offers over the '06 is if you use 140gn bullets over 400yds. It will give you a little wiggle room distance wise for small deer antelope or coyotes. If that were my target, I know it's not an option, Id choose the 264. capt davidcapt david

Oh this is just toooo easy:

7MMRM

Has enough energy down range to do the job.


Smedley

Easy ? 7mm

Normally I'm an '06 man but in your case I say get the 7mm Rem Mag. Since you handload you aren't going to want mix 30'06 brass between the new boltgun and your old selfloader. That and the bolt action is likely to make you unhappy with the selfloader, especially if it's a Remington.

Here is what I think,
The 30-06 is more of a general purpose caliber. Having said that, If I felt uncomfortable with a 7mmRM, I would definitely want more than a 30-06. Anything the 30-06 can tackle, the 7mm will handle easily and at a greater range.
In terms of ballistics...no competition there, the 7mm bullets are superior.
Sure, a 7mmRM will need a longer barrel to live up to its reputation but is that a handicap in itself ? Not by any means. It is however a matter of taste and preference.

quote:

the 30-06 is better
at tossing 150 and 165gr bullets than the 7mmMag is.

I fail to see the point in this sentence since the 7mmRM can hurl bullets in this range faster and flatter than any 30-06 will (compare BC´s).

The 30-06 may have the advantage of hurling heavy bullets, weights at 180gr and upp but thats it.
If I felt the need to use bullets heavier than 175gr in a 7mmRM, I would pass the 30-06 and its 180-200gr up for something more powerful.

I would take the 7mmRM

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by GBF:
Here is what I think,
The 30-06 is more of a general purpose caliber. Having said that, If I felt uncomfortable with a 7mmRM, I would definitely want more than a 30-06. Anything the 30-06 can tackle, the 7mm will handle easily and at a greater range.
In terms of ballistics...no competition there, the 7mm bullets are superior.
Sure, a 7mmRM will need a longer barrel to live up to its reputation but is that a handicap in itself ? Not by any means. It is however a matter of taste and preference.

quote:

the 30-06 is better
at tossing 150 and 165gr bullets than the 7mmMag is.

I fail to see the point in this sentence since the 7mmRM can hurl bullets in this range faster and flatter than any 30-06 will (compare BC´s).

The 30-06 may have the advantage of hurling heavy bullets, weights at 180gr and upp but thats it.
If I felt the need to use bullets heavier than 175gr in a 7mmRM, I would pass the 30-06 and its 180-200gr up for something more powerful.

I would take the 7mmRM

Regards

Uhhh... No, it can't not really...

with the discontinuation of H870 the 7mmRemMag with 160's is limited to the same velocity as the and if agressively loaded the 30-06 can equal the 7mmMag even with H870.

BTW, how does AA8700 compare to H870?


It is no secret that I believe that the 30-06 is best with 165's and there are some loads within SAAMI limits for the 30-06 that edge close to what the 7mmMag could do with H870.
I had three different loads that reached 3100fps from a 30-06 with a 22" barrel
(though it seemd to be a particularly "fast"
30-06 barrel. Granted those loads were all
with the Barnes XLC and accuracy wasn't spectacular by most standards (the best of the three averages just over an inch@100yd)
but they were definatly MOD accurate.

And while many advocate 180's in the '06, with premium type bullets, I.E. Barnes, Swift or Nosler, the 165's do everything the 180's could really be expected to do and shoot flatter in the bargain.

when Nosler gets around to a 165gr Accubond I'll be a happy 30-06 owner.

For every cartridge there seems to be one weight bullet that seems to work better in the broadest range of circumstances, for the 30-06 that is the 165gr.

For the 7mmMag that bullet weight is the 140gr.
though a case could be made for the 150gr, but there simply isn't the selection of 7mm 150's that there is of the 7mm 140's though switching directions yet again since there is a 150gr 7mm partition what else is really needed?

I suppose the 150gr partition for the 7mm is a "split the difference" bullet weight for those that cannot decide between the 140's
and the 160's....

I load mostly 140's for the 7mm but I also make deer loads with 120gr Barnes X-BT's
at ~3500fps they shoot very flat indeed....

But all that is moot, my brain farting aside, the choice was between a stainless steel 30-06, and a less expensive blue (more likely "black")
7mmADL for the same price.

and disregarding caliber preference the 30-06 was a better deal because it's a rifle with a retail price around $125 more.

I disagree that having a 30-06 bolt rifle will make him unhappy with his semi-auto.
I have a remington semi-auto and it works fine for it's intended purpose and for the purpose I use it now, which is different than the use I put my bolt rifle to....

Though to be honest in it's current useage I'd be happier if my semi-auto was a 35Whelen.
But not enough happier to justify replacing it.

Though the desire for something "different" seems reasonable it is in the end disappointing
when you finally discover that different
doesn't make it "better", just different.

And more often than not that different/same winds up equaling "pain in the ass" for no purpose. this is especially true of most wildcats.

In this guy's case the only thing he'll really have to do to get the best out of an '06 bolt rifle is get himself a neck sizing die and finding some sure way to segregate the loads for the tw different '06 chambered rifles he now has.

I went to the simple expedient of using nickel plated brass in the semi-auto

AllanD

quote:

Which caliber is inerently more accurate?

The idea of inherent accuracy is pure
There'is nothing about the geometry of these cartridges that causes accuracy.

Of the two I'd opt for the 30-06 as a preferable all around cartridge but the 7-Mag is the equivalent in a magnum case. Give me the non belted case any day.

Yeah, but you can play with the 7mm Mag like it was a 25-06 with 120gr Barnes bullets.

the 7mm can be a "beanfield" rifle when loaded for the purpose, the 30-06 isn't and cannot be.

and though they have a considerable overlap in capability
they each have different capabilities outside their overlap range.

but again, the point is moot as the questions was
"which rifle was a better dead"

AllanD

Allan,
have you ever heard of or even tried brands like Norma MRP or MRP2 let alone VihtaVuori products like N560 ?

Look at the manuals of those manufacturers and then make statements. Speed isnt all, take in the factors of BC and SD and voila, the 7mmRM most certainly can and will outperform a 30-06 with bullets in the 150-165gr range.

Regards

None of my lcal suppliers carry VihtaVuori

MRP is the same thing as Alliant RL22 and is around 60fps slower than H870

Unless I'm mistaken (possible, even likely) MRP2 is what we in NorthAmerica have as Alliant RL25, which is probably as good a substitute for H870 as could be asked for, but many people don't travel outside of what is listed in loading manuals.

Barnes lists RL25 as a propellant with the 160's Nosler does not.
Not sure about Swift as I don't use their bullets so couldn't justify the $30+ price of their manual.

But, I don't think the 7mmMag is all that good at tossing 160's anyway and think the 160's should be left to the 7mmUltraMag crowd.


I don't need to fire 160's in a 7mm Mag as I do have the use of both a 338WinMag and a 358Norma Mag.

AllanD

I've shot the 06s for much longer than I have the 7RM and I will go 7RM any time over the 06 If I had to choose. I own both and probably always will.

The reason I choose the 7RM is because the .284 bullets have better BCs and the 7 will push them faster and result in a flatter arc w/ more punch at impact.

If you don't intend on shooting past 200 yards the 30-06 will suit you just fine.

Although, the high velocity .284 bullets are devastating at close range as well.

I'd go 7RM. Then you can handle long range hunts as well as short range hunts. You can always load down to 30-06 ballistics if you want to since you are a Reloader.

Good Luck

Reloader

The 7mmRM will get about 200fps more out of a 160 than the '06 will with 165's in most cases.

But then your not really comparing apples to apples. To really compare, I think one needs to compare bullets that are as close to the same SD & BC as possible.

The longer / heavier bullets in the caliber tend to out-penetrate tha shorter lighter ones.

Only recently have we been able to smudge the lines with bullets like the Barnes monometeals, Grooves, GS Customs, ect. Penetration with these is better than could have been achieved before with bullets of the same weight.

None of this really matters much with these two calibers until you step up to game larger than deer. Deer are fragile compared to many other game animals. IMHO, deer can be taken with most anything provided proper bullet choice and placement. Penetration is through the deer with most game bullets out of either of these. How well it shoots, and how much damage it does when it arrives is what will make it most effective. Dead is dead as someone else said.

I have both, and use the 7mm RM by far more than the .30 gov't! I like the rifle more, and can't say the smaller diameter bullet looses anything to the 30cal in the way of on game performance. Nate

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
The 7mmRM will get about 200fps more out of a 160 than the '06 will with 165's in most cases.

No, it won't, under the best of circumstances and even allowing agressive reloading of either cartridge the difference is more like 100fps.

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
But then your not really comparing apples to apples. To really compare, I think one needs to compare bullets that are as close to the same SD & BC as possible.

I'm not entirely sure that the difference in BC between the 7mm 160 and the .308 165 matters that much.

To be fair to the 7mm 160gr it should be compared to the 30cal 180gr so if you want to keep the discussion to bulets of the same sectional density the 7mm Mag has a clear 200-300fps advantage pretty much across the board.

all that being said for the same price I'd still take a stainless BDL over a blue ADL, it's still a more expensive rifle for the same cash price.

AllanD

With similar barrel lengths you can run the 06 and 7mag with 160,165 gr slugs pretty close in velocity. So close that the differance in real world performance is very small.

I've run partitions in the above weights,for years and have yet to recover a bullet from elk on anything other then length wise shots. Thats a bullet designed for 60% retention.

I also believe on elk,the .30 does provide a small edge in killing performance. Although the majority of the time you can't tell the differance between the 7 and .308

At long range,you have to know where you're hitting period. I shoot both calibers routinely out to 500 yards and neither caliber makes it any easier to hit at these ranges.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
the 7mm can be a "beanfield" rifle when loaded for the purpose, the 30-06 isn't and cannot be.
AllanD

One would never deny the ability of the 7MM Magnum as a long range deer cartridge. However to say that the 30-06 isn't and can't be is just a misunderstanding of the ability of this grand old cartridge.

There is no distance one can kill a deer with a 7MM Magnum that can't be duplicated with the 30-06.

from the Remington website:
06 165gr Accutip vs 7mag 160 cl Ultra

500yd velocity: 1870 vs 1924
500 yd energy: 1281 vs 1315
500yd drop (200 yd zero): -46.2 vs -42.4

energy and velocity look pretty close to me. drop is 4" different. with today's range finders, looks to me like the 100 year-old the '06 doesn't give up much as a beanfield rifle.

Truth be told, the '06 wouldn't be my choice. But it shows just how minute the differences are in today's cartridges, despite the passion we have for our favorties.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
the 7mm can be a "beanfield" rifle when loaded for the purpose, the 30-06 isn't and cannot be.
AllanD

One would never deny the ability of the 7MM Magnum as a long range deer cartridge. However to say that the 30-06 isn't and can't be is just a misunderstanding of the ability of this grand old cartridge.

There is no distance one can kill a deer with a 7MM Magnum that can't be duplicated with the 30-06.

Did you really float right past where I said:

quote:

Yeah, but you can play with the 7mm Mag like it was a 25-06 with 120gr Barnes bullets.

you either don't know what I mean by the phrase "Beanfield rifle" or have a different meaning of the term in mind

It is a gun-nut slang term to refer to a rifle used to take game at the far end of a wide field and though not a written rule this is considered to be 400yard plus.

the other part is that the combination not need a computer to calculate trajectory.

The 120gr bullet at 3500fpsMV has a 425yard "Point Blank" range with only an additional 8" drop at 500yards

You can't do that with a 30-06, atleast not at any pressure that won't wreck the rifle

As I'm sure you know, the problem is that hitting things becomes difficult as range increases, with the lightest practical deer bullets the 7mmMag has easily 150yards more useable range than the '06 does.

Did I forget my 17page disclaimer so that I wouldn't be intentionally misunderstood?

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
from the Remington website:
06 165gr Accutip vs 7mag 160 cl Ultra

500yd velocity: 1870 vs 1924
500 yd energy: 1281 vs 1315
500yd drop (200 yd zero): -46.2 vs -42.4

energy and velocity look pretty close to me. drop is 4" different. with today's range finders, looks to me like the 100 year-old the '06 doesn't give up much as a beanfield rifle.

Truth be told, the '06 wouldn't be my choice. But it shows just how minute the differences are in today's cartridges, despite the passion we have for our favorties.

Talk about "passion" all you like because you just misunderstood as well.

I have BOTH and understand the relative strengths and weaknesses of each.
Or atleast I have opinions about them...

I said I thought using a 120gr at ~3500fpsMV as a "Beanfield" combination, not a 160gr.

BTW, Why on earth would you need a 160gr from a 7mmMag to kill whitetail?

the 120gr 7mm starting @3500 arrives at the 500yd line @ ~2320fps an has 1430fpE

This remaining energy figuire is about the same as a hot handloaded 150gr from a 30-30 has @50yards.

BTW, that little 120gr bullet has almost 100ft/lb more energy(1707fpE) at 400yards than the 150gr@2200fps from a 30-30 (1620fpE) does at the muzzle.

If it has more energy than a 30-30 does at 150yards it's more than enough to kill deer.

And the 120gr 7mm X-BT is going to have more than a foot (probably more like 14") less drop at 500yards than a 7mm 160gr @3100fps-MV.

Thus my suggesting it as a "beanfield" combination...

the lightest practical deer bullet for a 30-06 is usually regarded as being a 150gr, though you COULD use a 130gr Barnes... at 3300fps...

AllanD

As a suggestion only, the '06 or 7Rem Mag are both outstanding calibers and for practical hunting shooting purposes you might want to consider sighting either caliber on @100 yards and for targets ranging out to approx. 700 yards, use 3moa come ups for each 100 yards. Obviously this would mean 21moa adjustments or for your normal .25moa scope adjustment, some 84 clicks or 1 revolution of the elevation drum plus 24 clicks. ( Normally one rev of the elevation drum on quality scope yields 15 moa adjustment or 60clicks.)
You do not really need to know the velocity, remaining energy, BC, etc. but only be aware that these sight settings will result at worst a very near miss and most likely a solid hit on a deer or targets with approx. 18" kill zone. 7Rem Mag will shoot "flatter" but not so much that you will miss at these elevation adjustments. Personally would not suggest taking a shot at game much beyond 400 regardless of caliber, but there are those that can and do with great success.
Go to the nearest 600 yard or 1000 yard range and try both calibers and you will see that after 700 the 3 minute of angle rule goes out the window. The 7 mag drops less at extended ranges. With the 06 at 1000 yards, the total elevation will end up being approx. 38moa. plus. The 7 Rem. mag will be right at 30moa. At 1000 yards, 1 moa is equal to 10". No substitute for "rounds down range..."

quote:

You do not really need to know the velocity, remaining energy, BC, etc. but only be aware that these sight settings will result at worst a very near miss and most likely a solid hit on a deer or targets with approx. 18" kill zone.

Driver: What deer has an 18 inch "kill zone?" You either made a typo, are on drugs, or haven't shot too many deer.

And my point with the simple "Point blank sighting"
(familiar to anyone who has ever had a Sierra manual)
is that you don't have to THINK about holdover within your point blank range. you hold dead on and the bullet is not more than 4-5" from point of aim (ignoring any wind drift)

This removes range mis-estimation from the list of causes
for missing..... atleast within the point blank range.

For a Whitetail I consider that any shot has to wind up in a 12" square, which is why so many "diner plate" shooters come home with venison.

18" probably works for Elk or Moose. (But don't say that within earshot of any Elk hunters)

I'd say more but Tremors3 is starting and I just love the Twin-50 cal that gets used in the beginning of the movie

AD

quote:

the 7mmMag has easily 150yards more useable range than the '06 does.

Only an armchair rookie would make such a statement.

Well, let's see now Another AZWriter, are you thinking the kill zone of a deer is larger than 18"?? Surely not, unless your deer are much larger than most??? Believe if you check around a bit, from bottom of brisket to top of back is pretty well given to be some 18" in height/width, etc. Hey, you could be right that it is somewhat smaller, larger, and will vary, but 18" spread in the heart, lung area will just about cover it. Several scope mfg.'s also will inform you that the spread of the heavy/thin (duplex) crosshairs is often 18" @ 100 yds. and can serve as a range finder if you are clever enough to figure out how to use it.
Nope, not a typo, don't do drugs, know now big a deer's brisket is, but as you mentioned have not really shot that many deer from a hunter's viewpoint.
I won't count the ones we used to kill on my granfather's farm when I was in my early teens, for that would not be fair. Apple orchard some 100 plus yards away from barn and kept Rem. 722-222Rem. w/ Weaver 4x, scope in tool shed and he and other's liked venison and they never went very far with a shot just behind the ear. It got to be work since I had to drag the thing back to the meat house and sharpen the knives and do the butchering. Yeah, I am very familiar with deer. Frankly, consider them a pretty pest.