Salutations.

Wondering if anybody here has had a similar experience. I've managed to achieve 2875 fps with Accubond 180s from the business end of my "project" M700 in 30-06. These ballistics are beyond what I expected to achieve with not a single sign of pressure problems. Here is how I got there:

I'll start with the rifle. It wears a 24" tube and has a chamber cut snug but not tight. The barrel was a Remington factory take-off with a somewhat deep throat allowing me to seat the long 180 pills out a ways while still maintaining the appropriate head spacing.

The overall case length is thus above MAX C.O.L. manual listings, so I certainly would not chamber these rounds in another rifle--definitely tailor made ordinance. Knowing that taking advantage of the extra case capacity created by the deeper throat would mean I could end up using a fair amount of powder, I took the advice of a seasoned reloading veteran and started load development with a magnum primer (Winchester). A few hours spent working my way up .5 grains at a time delivered me to a final load of 61gr of Hunter power behind the 180 Accubond leaving the muzzle at 2875. Extreme spread was only 15fps, and groups clustered sub 1moa. To be honest, I found myself staring at the chronograph and at the target like a weary knight laying eyes upon the holy grail.

As stated above, I have had not the slightest sign of pressure issues. Bolt lifts easily. Extraction is effortless. Primers and necks look good. I took a handful of fired cases to the owner of a local reloading shop who said they looked perfect. Thus far this load has accounted for a heavy 6x6 bull elk @ 427 yards, and two cows, one at 275yrds and the other at 90.

Has anybody else had such wonderful ballistic luck with the 06 and 180s? Has anybody else utilized a magnum primer in a standard load? I have to say I am having a hard time resisting the notion that I somehow managed to arrive at the optimal balance between brute power and reasonableness, between down-range terminal performance and good manners--that nostalgic niche the 300 h&h used to occupy with such grace.

Thoughts?

I get that fps out of a 26 in Shilen barrel. No pressure or extraction issues. Very accurate. Standard primers.
Some barrels are fast.

What is your OAL? Depending on your case capacity and OAL it for sure doable. Pressure probably between the 06 and 270.

I have 2 loads with identical MV to yours shooting from a 25 inch barrel. One with Interbond 180 gn, the other with Barnes TSX 180 gn. Standard primers. I guess the loads are warm as primers are slightly flattened but no problems as such. Both shoot about 1.5 MOA which is good enough to make me happy.

Like others have said, sometimes you just luck into a "fast" barrel, but your results are certainly believable. I have a .270 which launches a 130 grain bullet at an honest 3200 FPS with two grains less powder than most use to get 3050 fps.

You may also be lucky in working with a particular lot of brass which has a rather hard head and overall good metallurgy. Pressure signs, like swollen heads and expanded primer pockets, will show up thousands of PSI lower in softish brass than in harder, higher quality brass. It is the brass, after all, which is the pressure-limiting component. It will fail at perhaps only one-half to one-third of the pressure of the steel of a modern bolt rifle.

By the way, although your '06 is providing you very ample velocity, it's still a bit short of H&H speeds. I use 180 Accubonds in my .300 H&H and throttle it back to 2960 fps, although it shows no pressure signs when enough powder is added to give it another 100 fps.

Hmmmm Federal list their 180 300H&H as 2880. Hornady at 2900. I do believe Nosler list 2950 for their 180s.

Since I would be a that they are measuring velocity at the muzzle vs 10-15ft down range from a Chrony then I would say he is close info to call it good.

Ramrod 340, my COL is 3.36

Stonecreek, I'm using Win brass, which if I am not mistaken has the reputation of being a bit thinner and more flexible than, say, Remington. Believe I read somewhere that Win brass may have a bit more case capacity than thicker (more hardheaded) offerings. At any rate, it sure seems to work well, and still no pressure problems despite brass from two different bags bought a year apart from different stores. Also, yeah...I know the 300 h&h can go where no 06 has ever gone and compete nicely with the Winnie. I was referring to the classic middle-of-the-road velocities achieved by the early H&H loads.

The rifle in question has indeed been a project. I'm a lefty, so in order to end up with what I want, I routinely have to build the damned thing. It started out life as a BDL with a 22" pipe. Upgrades included the 24" barrel, laminated stock (gray/brown laminate Remington model offered for a short time in lefties--snatched off ebay), and a Timney trigger. It wears a vortex viper 4-16X44 LR scope. I live in northwest Montana where elk are a bit scarce (too much rock and ice), but hunt elk and antelope in southwest Montana where herds can number in the hundreds or thousands and shots are LONG. Used to carry a Winnie down there, which I had/have a lot of respect for. However, this rifle seems to do a great deal with class, so it eventually became my go to for the wide open spaces.

For alpine deer and bear hunts up here in NW Montana, I've become very fond of my stainless Tikka light in 06. Wears a VX-2 2-7x33 and tips the scales under 7lbs. So much easier to ridge run with the Tikka than with my 8.75lb "project."

Sounds like you worked up to a great load, I bet that load kills like a hammer. Thanks for sharing your success.
Good luck and good shooting.

That is an excellent load.
I have a rifle chambered for the .257 roberts that get 3107 , from 100 grain bullets and that from a 20 inch barrel.
And that's a book load. So there are fast barrels
...tj3006

Think you're do'in good...check this URL

http://gh.hostoi.com/Nosler180R17.pdf

or this...

http://gh.hostoi.com/30-06%20S...iel%209-May-2007.pdf

and then read this thread...

http://forums.accuratereloadin...2511043/m/4011018761

So... perhaps you can stick with me here for just a bit longer and help me solve a lingering dilemma. Despite seeing no problems with this load so far, it really feels like I should be a bit over the edge of the envelope with this load. That is not the story the brass tells, but I am using a lot of powder, and the pressure calculations some of you have been kindly enough to send my way give me pause. Would it be more prudent to go the 300 Winnie route and load the 180s between 2960 to 3000, or should I not worry about it in the absence of pressure signs?

I'd be more worried about shooting out the rifling by shooting it too much!

If the pressure question eats at the back of your mind, just back off a little. You'll still be way ahead of the game.

As it is, I would leave well enough alone! Load up 500 rounds and consider it done.

friar

What chrono do you use? Some are notoriously inaccurate, but consistent, others are the opposite.

.02 longer is not adding any appreciable capacity, so your absence of pressure signs may be what they are-subjective observations. Velocity requires pressure, so you are indeed loading vey hot. Be safe, no critter will ever know if the bullet was going 2750 or 2875, but you may well suffer for it.

quote:

Originally posted by HPMaster:
What chrono do you use? Some are notoriously inaccurate, but consistent, others are the opposite.

.02 longer is not adding any appreciable capacity, so your absence of pressure signs may be what they are-subjective observations. Velocity requires pressure, so you are indeed loading vey hot. Be safe, no critter will ever know if the bullet was going 2750 or 2875, but you may well suffer for it.

I agree with HPM...

I use the Shooting Chrony, Beta model chronograph.

I played with QL for his load yesterday. Not knowing his actual case capacity I tweaked the burn rate so that QL resulted in the same velocity as his load. I had to reduce the burn rate. So either he has a larger capacity or in fact slower lott of powder. Leaving QL alone 61grs calculates 2968fps and 71,162psi. Matching his velocity the pressure is 62,414. Higher than the 06 max but lower than the 260 and 25-06. If I had worked up to this load and had good brass life and no issues with a HOT day I would have no issues using it.

Would anything notice if the velocity dropped 50-75fps nope. Also the difference between 3.34 and 3.36 is nothing. 100psi and 10fps calculated.

 Cartridge          : .30-06 Spring.  (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 180, Nosler AccuBond 54825
Useable Case Capaci: 58.781 grain H2O = 3.817 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.360 inch = 85.34 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Ramshot Hunter ?

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   87    48.80   2272    2064   31026   7830     88.0    1.546
-18.0   89    50.02   2332    2173   33216   8094     89.4    1.502
-16.0   92    51.24   2391    2285   35569   8349     90.7    1.460
-14.0   94    52.46   2451    2401   38099   8595     92.0    1.417
-12.0   96    53.68   2511    2520   40824   8831     93.2    1.372
-10.0   98    54.90   2571    2643   43761   9056     94.3    1.328
-08.0  100    56.12   2632    2768   46928   9268     95.3    1.287
-06.0  102    57.34   2692    2897   50351   9465     96.2    1.246
-04.0  105    58.56   2753    3029   54053   9648     97.0    1.207  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  107    59.78   2813    3164   58062   9815     97.8    1.169  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  109    61.00   2874    3301   62414   9965     98.4    1.133  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  111    62.22   2934    3442   67146  10096     98.9    1.098  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  113    63.44   2995    3585   72297  10207     99.3    1.064  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  116    64.66   3055    3731   77919  10298     99.7    1.031  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  118    65.88   3116    3880   84072  10367     99.9    0.999  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  120    67.10   3176    4031   90817  10414    100.0    0.968  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    109    61.00   3011    3623   75943   9694    100.0    1.049  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    109    61.00   2686    2884   50508   9672     92.2    1.242
    

What you are finding is the advantage of freebore (long leade/deep throat). This allows seating bullets out to gain more powder capacity or with normal seating depths allows the bullet to 'jump' to the rifling avoiding building pressure too early. If you get good accuracy with free bore then you will be happy.

The Weatherbys and the 7x61 S&H cartridge in a Schultz and Larsen rifle all thrived on freebore the latter in particular producing high velocity for minimal amounts of powder (minimal compared with charges usually used in magnum cartridges).

i have been getting that velocity WITH MY 06 AND THE 180 GN NOSLER for the last 10 plus years ...only diffrence is i was useing LAPUA brass and NORMA MRP or R22
If memory serves me right the RAMSHOT web site has that same load 61 gns of hunter for a vel of 2850

I now have changed over to R17 ...with the 200 gn nosler i get 2700 fps , and will say with some degree of arrogance...its a better load then the 180 @2850-2900 which i had used for many years.....i dont think i will ever go back to the 180 gn load in my 06...the 200 gn nosler @ 2700 is just magic
if your load is accurate and no pressure signs, dont change anything...go hunting

if you want to be really sure pressure wise, get one or two cases and just keep on reloading them with that charge, and after 5 shots see how tight your primer pockets are, same ofter 10 firings.......if after 10 or 15 firings your pockets are still tight...sleep well
before you do this ...i can tell you your primer pockets will be tight
Regards

Thank you so much M 98! Feel fooling admitting this, but checking with Ramshot never occurred to me. Although they don’t list my exact load, they do list the Nosler B-tip @ 59.4gr for 2820 with a COL of 3.40, and the Speer GSlam @ 61gr for 2860 with a COL of 3.17. Both of these are obviously max loads. They list several other 180s atop 60+/- grains of Hunter, so I am definitely in their neighborhood. I still feel like I am flirting with the edge a bit, but I’m confident I am probably within a single grain of what is reasonable. The velocity I’m getting with a 24” tube with a little extra free bore certainly seems like it’s in the ballpark with what they’ve achieved with this powder. What can I say…it’s a damned good powder.

Could agree more you on the 200 grainers @ 2700. Simply put, that load was made for killing. An excellent elk load. Well done.


I may contact Ramshot directly and get a final word from them on this matter. Just to be thorough.

I dont have access to the powder you guys have.

My 3006 love 150gr Barnes TTSX and launches it at 3050fps.

I hunted this zebra stallion a week ago in the Mpumalanga mountains.

The distance was 250m and he went 25 steps before going down. The bullet was underneath the opposite shoulder skin.

2800fps Will be a deadly plains game load with a 180gr out of the 3006

I have had great results with Ramshot Hunter in my '06. Too bad I can't find any to buy. Have not seen any for a year.

That old claim,has been around for a decade or so and fills 06 users with glee..I am a 30-06 fan for sure, its my favorite caliber, but my Win. mod 70 will toss a 200 gr. Nosler at 3010 FPS with H4831 at rather low pressure. A 30-06 cannot do that, not even close..With a 180 gr. it absolutely leaves the 06 in the lurch. To start with even 2800FPS is pushing the string in a 30-06 and 2700 FPS is standard and always has been and allows for hot weather and kills as well as 2800 btw. You just can't compare an underloaded 300 H&H to a hoped up 30-06, its a dumb comparison used by some gun scribes to make a case!

Sooner or later it dawns on the more astute shooters that case capacity is the determining factor, the more powder a case holds and the less room a bullet takes up in the case the faster it will shoot..and that is why the old "outdated" 300 H&H will out perform the 300 win. mag, 30-338, and 308 Norma by a bunch..apply this to the 180 gr. 30-06 and the 06 is a couple of hundred FPS in the lurch..

Gerhard, great hunt and photo. Haven't quite figured out hot to upload photos onto this forum. Instructions?

Atkinson, a little confused by your adversarial tone. Perhaps you missed the spirit of this string. I started it seriously questioning my results, not promoting them. While I largely agree with your point of view regarding the inherent limitations of the 06, I must say the newer powders do seem capable of taking standard cartridges to another level. Case and point--the high energy factory loads pushing 180s from an 06 upwards of 2900.

Of course the advanced chemistry can concurrently give the sacred 300 H&H even longer legs than it previously walked on. So no, the 06 will never catch up, nor should it be tortured into doing so. As you stated...it's all about case capacity.

All I can say regarding the case capacity of my 06 loads is that 61 grains of Hunter fill it right to the base of the neck. The 180 Accubonds meet the powder and compress it the slightest amount. Would call it a 100.5% load. I would consider that ideal utilization of the case capacity without forcing things.

quote:

300 H&H will out perform the 300 win. mag, 30-338, and 308 Norma by a bunch

Curious how you feel that. I know I haven't loaded near as much 300H&H as you probably have. BUT in what I have done the 300H&H 308 Norma are basically twins. Stands to reason the Gross capacity is basically the same and with some bullets the 308Norma as a touch more net capacity. The 300wmag gains in capacity over the other 3.

Yes the newer 300wmag, 308Norma etc didn't gain you much if any velocity but they didn't loose either. What they did do is allow you to get the same velocity without a 3.6"+ mag box and action.

As to the comparison of handloads to factory I have no issue as long as you state that in your comparison. For years I've stated that many of my 280 based wildcats can match a factory magnum but can't match my handloads of that magnum unless I get an extra couple inches of barrel. With some of the newer powders (Hornady SuperPerformance etc) that the factories are using I might not be able to say that now. But don't feel like going testing it either.

I have a 400PDK that I'm happy to say I can match current 450-400 factory loads as well as historical loadings. Can someone take the 450-400 using that extra capacity newer powders and push the velocity. Sure. Is it needed for hunting nope. Makes a great story around the campfire.

Besides the OP says "dancing like" a 300 H&H. Since you can get 100fps between 2 rifles in the same chambering if you get that close you are "dancing like"



Just my opinion that and a $1 will buy you a

Hometown: Until and unless you find some tangible sign that the pressure generated by your load is unsustainable, then there is no reason not to use it. I would do as suggested and load and shoot single case four or five times to see if you detect either loosening of the primer pocket or can find measurable expansion of the head. If the brass will take it, then the gun will much more than take it.

Although I was the first to point out that your load is still somewhat shy of a similarly optimized load in a .300 H&H, I will also stipulate that your velocity is fully what many factory loads for MANY .300 magnums (not just H&H) will yield, so your observation of being in that "class" is certainly a valid one.

Here we go again !

The eternal battle a lesser cased cartridge running with a magnum ( or so it is claimed ? )

Here we have a 30-06 with 68 gr capacity chasing down a 300 H&H with 86 gr capacity.

or perhaps a 7x57 ( 55gr) running down a 83 gr capacity 7mm Rem mag

Sadly the physics of internal combustion rule.
If both are loaded to capacity and with the appropriate chemistry the larger cased cartridge will win every time and always !

It is simple ! more energy in the tank translates to more energy to the bullet all else equal !

Thanks Stonecreek. The idea of loading multiples with a single brass is good. I have a question though. Don't max loads tend to loosen up primer pockets eventually anyway? Though I am very scientific in my approach to things, I don't have any experience (RE)-loading max loads. Any load approximating max pressures I tend to perpetrate once, then relegate the brass to milder hunting or practice loads. I know this is not necessary. However, I consider the practice a hedging of the safety bet. Example: my Winchester brass gets one 61 grain charge of Hunter behind the 180 accubonds, then it becomes fodder for milder loads behind a 165gr pill in my Tikka Light.

Thoughts?

Thus far the Max-then-Mild reloading approach has worked. I have 2 06s that want to be fed. One benefits from heavier projectiles pushed at maxed velocity because it has to buck omnipresent winds while reaching out there to dispatch cxp3 game. The other rarely sees a shot beyond 275 yards at cxp2 game. The heft of one allows for comfortable launching of max payloads at distant targets. The other is tasked with behaving itself (despite its bantam weigh) when fired prone at steep uphill angles after a 3500ft vertical ascent. I am digressing from my original point here to make a bit of a personal plea. The high country is far less forgiving of scope cuts, loss of balance, or any other unintended consequence of rifles recoiling belligerently or jetting hot gasses rearward. If ever there were a place for being happy and satisfied with middle-of-the-road ballistics, it's kneeling behind a boulder on a 35degree scree slope, your uphill leg tucked awkwardly underneath you, the other extended straight as a stove pipe acting like a wedge in order to keep you from finding out just exactly what it would feel like to slide over that 200ft cliff 30 yards below. I love Montana, but she will kill you for ego quicker than any other crime. I have a friend (tough old bird in his 50s) who took a backwards plunge off a 30ft cliff with a boned out muley on his back for trying to travers a chunk of real estate he had no business tempting. Doctors said that meat airbag saved his life. The fall did, however, fracture two vertebrae and three ribs. Tough old bastard hiked himself the remaining six miles down the mountain. Another buddy of ours retrieved his meat, skull, and rifle a few days later. All three were nicely tenderized.

Be safe.

when i did my testing i got a couple of lapua cases and just kept on loading them ,till something
happened....i usually got splitting of the case neck, but before i got to that stage i got between 50 and 60 firings /reloads out of the case on the day....even then the primer pockets were still reasnably tight.....you get a bit of loosness from the wear and tear of priming and decaping the primmers....this was with a charge of 61 gns of R22 behind a 180 nosler for a vel of 2850

if your going to run this test, get the cases and reload them with a mild load to harded the case head and then go with your full charge

Daniel

I contacted a tech @ Ramshot for an opinion on the high velocity of my load. I have pasted his response verbatim below:

"I think what you are seeing is powder geometry and the advantages of a slow powder. The spherical powders allow powder to stack efficiently within the case, meaning you can get more in. The main drawback to slower powders is that they require more capacity, which in your case has been answered by the small, spherical geometry."

Hunter powder is indeed a nice slow burning powder, but also tiny little balls instead of long, chunky extrusions. I think the verdict is in--the newer powders are making it possible to expect a bit more from standard cartridges within prudence.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
What you are finding is the advantage of freebore (long leade/deep throat). This allows seating bullets out to gain more powder capacity or with normal seating depths allows
the bullet to 'jump' to the rifling avoiding building pressure too early.

The Weatherbys and the 7x61 S&H cartridge in a Schultz and Larsen rifle all thrived on freebore the latter in particular producing high velocity for minimal amounts of powder
(minimal compared with charges usually used in magnum cartridges).

my old .270WBy was loaded with the bullet out-some, but with still generous freebore, yet I still found the need to stop at about published load book max.
so for me, FB didn't offer me any exceptional advantage.

An important factor in determining/effecting pressure levels & VEL. is how much resistance there is between projectile and barrel.
for e.g.;.. bullets like GSC_HV reduce the amount of contact or resistance of the bullet in the bore, to the extent that it
allows the user of GSC_HV bullets to use published load book max. as their starting load....so clearly, final max. load developed
for a GSC_HV would offer more MV than a more regular design higher resistance bullet.

I also recall reading where some well know gun-nuts experimented with differing depths of lands in barrels.
eg: instead of the regular .300" & .308" inside diameters for a 30cal, ..they would also make barrels with the specs of .302" and .308"
(so a difference of .006" rather than the regular .008")....and they found they achieve major velocity increases of up to 200pfs. with the .302/.308 barrel.

Id also be interested to know if a 3 land barrel would offer more vel. than a barrel with more lands/more surface contact area with bullet.
Theoretically it should.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
my Win. mod 70 will toss a 200 gr. Nosler at 3010 FPS with H4831 at rather low pressure. A 30-06 cannot do that, not even close.. With a 180 gr. it absolutely leaves the 06 in the lurch.

Sooner or later it dawns on the more astute shooters that case capacity is the determining factor, the more powder a case holds and the less room a bullet takes up in the case the faster it will shoot...

I don't follow the seemingly contradictory statements above. Since a 270 is a necked down 30.06 isn't case capacity virtually the same? I don't hand load either cartridge, and I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just honestly can't see how a 270 could smoke a 30.06 at equal pressure...

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
my Win. mod 70 will toss a 200 gr. Nosler at 3010 FPS with H4831 at rather low pressure. A 30-06 cannot do that, not even close.. With a 180 gr. it absolutely leaves the 06 in the lurch.

Sooner or later it dawns on the more astute shooters that case capacity is the determining factor, the more powder a case holds and the less room a bullet takes up in the case the faster it will shoot...


I don't follow the seemingly contradictory statements above. Since a 270 is a necked down 30.06 isn't case capacity virtually the same? I don't hand load either cartridge, and I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just honestly can't see how a 270 could smoke a 30.06 at equal pressure...

He is talking about the 300 H&H. It's a model 70, not a 270.

Your 2875 fps load doesn't mean much for comparison unless you compare it to loads worked up in the .300 H&H using the same bullet.

As was pointed out, the 30-06 has less case capacity than the 300 H&H and the only way it can shoot the same bullets faster is by operating at higher pressures. So, what happens if you load both with the same bullets using modern powders at modern pressures?

Well, I just looked in the new Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual with that question in mind. Using identical bullets, they list maximum 180gr .30-06 loads with velocities up to 2790 fps. They list maximum 180gr .300 H&H loads with velocities up to 2950 fps. That is a significant difference.

The difference is more apparent at higher bullet weights. Woodleigh lists maximum 220gr .30-06 loads up to 2520 fps. They list maximum 220gr .300 H&H loads up to 2715 fps. That means the .300 H&H is about 200 fps faster with 220gr bullets than the .30-06.

Let's relate the differences to muzzle energy (ME). Using the velocities above, with the 220gr bullet ME for the .30-06 is 3103 ftlb compared to a whopping 3601 ftlb for the H&H round. Dancing like a .300 H&H? Not hardly. In fact the performance of the .30-06 is closer to that of the .308 Winchester than it is to the .300 H&H.

I love these threads!
I am very happy for the original poster for finding a good load for "his" 30/06. That sounds like a great load.
A 300 H&H it isn't. I hear it all the time "my 7x57 shoots like a 7 mag" or whatever.
The simple truth is that useable case capacity trumps all no matter what there is no "magic".
You apply more powder you get more velocity.
Some people become star struck when their handloads approach or beat an anemic factory load of a larger and reputedly more powerful cartridge but facts are facts and you just can't change them.
Ray said it like this:
"You just can't compare an underloaded 300 H&H to a hopped up 30-06, its a dumb comparison"
All too true.

Oh for the love of...

I don't think anybody on this blog has suggested the 06 is can keep up with a 300. I, the original poster of this string do hereby declare the Holland & Holland is a more powerful cartridge than the 06. Wish I had one, but as a lefty, anything beyond the most plain jane offerings are strictly a custom affair. Have I satisfied the H&H crowd?

My sole intent for starting this string was to reach out for feedback on performance from an 06 load that seemed above and beyond what is reasonable--not to throw down the gauntlet.

Hometown,

Your load is within the spectrum of a stiff, yet safe, 30-06 load. In fact, I probably would push it a little bit harder and get another 25 to 50 fps, but the animals will not know the difference.

I understand your question and I don't want to put words in your mouth; but, if you're thinking about magnum-izing your 30-06 with minimal cost - that is, only a barrel change-out and some gunsmithing - read the following thread...

http://forums.accuratereloadin...091032791#5091032791

Regards, AIU

Hometown: Some of our posters have watched Fox News for so long that they've forgotten how to read. You never said that a .30-06 (yours or any other) is generically equivalent in power to a .300 Magnum (H&H or otherwise). You merely asked if there was something about the unusually high velocity your particular rifle and load achieve which should be cause for worry. You characterized the velocity of your .30-06 as "dancing with a .300 H&H", which, compared to factory-loaded .300 H&H ammunition it certainly is.

Now that that is out of the way and permanently settled ( ), on to your question about "maximum loads":

First, "maximum" has to be defined, and it clearly means different things to different people. To some, it apparently means "a load which, if exceeded, will cause the brass case to fail and possibly damage the rifle, or interfere with the proper function of the rifle (excessively sticky bolt lift, difficult extraction, etc)". Under that definition you can have a load which expands the case head and primer pocket to the point that the case cannot be reused after a single firing.

Another definition of "maximum load" (and the one which I use in my own practice) is "a load which, if exceeded, will result in the life of the brass case being reduced to an unacceptably low number of reloadings due to case head expansion".

Of course, this definition begs the question of what number of loadings represents "acceptable" useful case life. In the instance of a hunting rifle that fires perhaps a half-dozen fouler/sighter shots per year plus as many as another half-dozen rounds at game, then the "acceptable" case life might be just three or four firings (although I like more). This is somewhat shorter than a varmint rifle which may routinely fire 100 rounds in a day and the brass is expected to last for a dozen or more loadings.

Your question was "Don't max loads tend to loosen up primer pockets eventually, anyway?" So, the answer is a conditional "yes" if you don't mind losing brass usefulness after only a few firings. Of course, all of this applies ONLY to modern turn-bolt, front-locking actions of which the shooter is confident of the metallurgy. Weaker, springier actions naturally must carry with them a more conservative definition of "maximum load".

Stonecreek, you are avoice of wisdom. Your refining of the term "max loads" is exceedingly helpful. Thank you.

For whatever it's worth, my plan is to test a repetitive loading of a single brass to see how it wears. If things still look acceptable after 3 or 4 loadings, I will very likely consider this rifle/load combo a finished product and grow old with it as is. Would have a hard time justifying the expense and effort of starting over with a magnum platform when the combo I have now leaves a premium projectile still in the vicinity of 2200fps and a ton of kinetic @ 475yrs across the 6000ft-above-sea-level plateau where I hunt elk. I've watched several elk go down cleanly hit with a lot less energy and velocity, but those numbers are my self-imposed minimal threshold; and I don't feel the slightest bit handicapped by them. I have no interest in attempting to snipe elk beyond 450. I'd rather hunt them.

Many of you have helped me gain a better prospective on what I am seeing from my rifle. Now if I could ask for one final point of clarification. What is the best way to assess head expansion. What aspects of the case should be measured?

Doctor,

I am sorry if I misunderstood you. I was responding to this:

quote:

Originally posted by Hometown Doctor:

...I somehow managed to arrive at the optimal balance between brute power and reasonableness, between down-range terminal performance and good manners--that nostalgic niche the 300 h&h used to occupy with such grace.

It seemed to suggest that your 30-06 loading equals, and can be used in lieu of, a now supposedly absent 300 H&H. So, I was trying to point out that the load does not equal, and cannot be used in lieu of, the ever present 300 H&H.

quote:

Now if I could ask for one final point of clarification. What is the best way to assess head expansion. What aspects of the case should be measured?

Measuring CHE (case head expansion) can be problematic and you need a very, very good and expensive calipers. Besides, you still have to decide...what is too much CHE.

I suggest getting a hand priming tool and feeling for loosening primer pockets with each firing - this is a much easier measure of significant CHE. As the case head expands the primer pocket loosens-up. From a practical point, the case must hold a primer. For me, the pocket is too loose, when I can push the primer back out with a depriming tool with my fingers. Not to worry, they won't go off, if you gently - yet increasingly - apply finger pressure.

With some experience - which is quickly learned - you'll know when the pockets get too loose.