A while ago I got a new .338 WM for my upcoming trip to AK this fall and began working up loads for the 225 gr TSX using IMR 4350. I immediately noticed that that cold barrel prints 1+" right on most loads, especially those closer to max. The Warm barrel group more or less cloverleafs. I settled on a slower load that minimized the left/right difference.

Now I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to get the hotter loads to shoot better. I experimented with seating depth and primers - no luck. Factory 225 gr SAF's do the same thing.

Is there anything else I can try before I spend a whole bunch of $$ on more bullet/powder combos? If most loads do it, is it the rifle, not the loads? Any ideas?

I have a 25/06 that shoots the first shot out of a "clean,cold" barrel low and left; maybe the second shot also. After the fouling shot(s)it is spot on. If I don't clean after the range session the next time out the rifle shoots spot-on with the first shot. My point is,try a cold fouled barrel. It works for me!
GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!!

Checked with a fouled bbl too- seems to be a warm-cold thing, which sucks cause in a hunting situation I'd have to compensate horizontally for a follow up.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Checked with a fouled bbl too- seems to be a warm-cold thing, which sucks cause in a hunting situation I'd have to compensate horizontally for a follow up.

Do you consider compensation of 1" a whole bunch ? If the game is closer or the temperature really cold it's less. In essence you have a MOA hunting rifle. Not a bench rest competition rifle or a super varmint rifle but a great meat getter.
50 years ago most hunters would have been happy as pigs in poop to have had a rifle like yours.Back than a great many of us were using open sights and couldn't approach getting 1" groups, not even at 50 yds.Enjoy! roger

Well, fire three shots from your rifle and leave it be for a day or two, then go shoot three shots at a target. If the group is the same or a little smaller or a little larger but land where you are looking, you are good to go. My guess is that your barrel needs a few shots thru it to smooth out the rough spots. Some barrels like a little fouling to shoot best. Look I don't know what you are going to be hunting in Alaska this fall, but if you can keep your bullets in an 8 inch circle you are not going to have any problems. Seems like you have a good rifle,

What Bartsche said +1

Sounds like you're only shooting 3 shot groups (clusters). Try shooting 5 shot groups and you may find that your flyer isn't a flyer.

quote:

Originally posted by George Semel:
if you can keep your bullets in an 8 inch circle you are not going to have any problems. Seems like you have a good rifle,

I've got a couple of rifles that shoot a 6 to 8" group that I'll sell ya. Well, maybe one, since I gave the other one away.

Kidding aside, I've noticed from time to time that my rifles shoot the first shot, cold/clean bore, in a different spot than a warm barrel. It's annoying, but I live with it.

But, I've read some of the lit on these latest sniper rifles, and some of the ads make reference to cold bore. I have been assuming they are talking about not being able to tell the difference in point of impact comparing the first and second, and third shot, and so forth.

I'm wondering if my assumption is correct? And if so, what's different about those rifles that make that so. I would also presume that if they can do it with a sniper rifle, then why not expect it from a hunting rifle?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Checked with a fouled bbl too- seems to be a warm-cold thing, which sucks cause in a hunting situation I'd have to compensate horizontally for a follow up.

Do you consider compensation of 1" a whole bunch ? If the game is closer or the temperature really cold it's less. In essence you have a MOA hunting rifle. Not a bench rest competition rifle or a super varmint rifle but a great meat getter.
50 years ago most hunters would have been happy as pigs in poop to have had a rifle like yours.Back than a great many of us were using open sights and couldn't approach getting 1" groups, not even at 50 yds.Enjoy! roger

Well why not try to get the last 1" of uncertainty out of it and have a rifle that cloverleafs? I'm not selling the damn thing..

It's a hunting rifle, not a varmint rifle, not a target rifle. How often do you shoot 3 or 5 shot groups on an elk? Townsend Whelen (I think) called the first shot out of a clean, cold barrel the "sniper's zero". That's the shot you need to be concerned with. Besides only an inch? Get a decent load, go hunting, don't worry about it.

My two cents.

Jerry Liles

most big game animals vital organs are bigger than 1 inch...

Actually I feel safe in saying that all medimum sized game and bigger have a heart bigger than 1 inch, lungs are even bigger. So if your low left at 100 yrds by 1", I think you will be just fine if you aim spot on.

a couple more thoughts.

I don't do a lot of paper puunchin' with 338's. If I'm out for an afternoon of paper punchin I usually use my 22 rimfires, 17's 222,or 223.

For a big game rifle, Pick a load that will group out of a fouled barrel. (I think most people clean their rifles too often. Shoot 8 or ten shots out of a rifle to foul the barrel.
If you're where you can do it. Fire a single shot at a target on three seperate days or at least wait until the rifle has completely cooled down. This will give a better indication of what the rifle will do. Then zero at the appropriate distance. How often do you shoot more than once at big game animals.
GWB

WFS, I (we) understand your interest in letting your rifle be all it can be. You've gotten some good suggestions --see if it'll do better shooting from a cold, fouled barrel-- and too, sometimes a wondering group will indicate a bedding problem. But folks have also told you that if you're still staying around an inch, you're good to go.
You've yet to respond to my post. 3 shots don't make a group. That merely shows a point of impact on the target. Shoot a few groups of 5 and see if you do indeed have a flyer problem. Better yet, shoot a few groups of 10. Find out what the rifle can really do. You haven't determined that yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by George Semel:
Kidding aside, I've noticed from time to time that my rifles shoot the first shot, cold/clean bore, in a different spot than a warm barrel. It's annoying, but I live with it.KB

KB! All my rifles do that to some degree. When a rifle goes to the range the first 2 shots are not counted. The next 30 to 50 are and the rifle is never cleaned at the range.
Right or wrong when I lived in Grand Junction, the rifles were never seriously cleaned during hunting season. One Hopees #9 followed by a dry patch and than lightly oiled than dry patch, maybe 1/2 way through the season.Checked zero each time prior to a hunt and did not clean. roger

Always hunt with a fouled barrel. A freshly "cleaned" barrel is never clean. No matter how many dry patches you run through it, it will always have some small amount of solvent or oil remaining in the bore and will typically not shoot to the same point of impact as a barrel fouled with a couple of shots.

A "cold" barrel is different. You HAVE to hunt with a cold barrel; you have no choice (at least for the first, and by far, most important shot.)

So, clean your barrel whenever it needs it. Shoot at least a couple of fouling shots through it. Let it cool (waiting a day is best). Then shoot it to note the location of the first shot from a cold barrel. This is the money shot. Follow up shots may group in a very slightly different place (but if significantly different, then you have an accuarcy problem that must be addressed).

Unless exposed unavoidably to moisture or something avoidable like condensation from bringing a cold gun into a warm house, don't clean your barrel during the hunting season. If you do, fire a couple of fouler shots before going hunting again.

You might try this.

Get a product called Prolix.

www.prolixlubricant.com

After you clean your barrel, wet it with prolix, making a few strokes with the wet atch, then dry out the chamber and the barrel.

You may find that your first shot goes into the main group.

It works on all of the rifles I have tested it on.

I agree with all the cold bore sight-ins.
Zero it for that first shot. I take it one step further and, just to prevent rust, I swab the bore out between shots so that not only is the barrel cool when it is shot, it is in the same condition as it would be if I just took it out of the safe. Not perfectly clean and a little oily.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
a couple more thoughts.

I don't do a lot of paper puunchin' with 338's. If I'm out for an afternoon of paper punchin I usually use my 22 rimfires, 17's 222,or 223.

For a big game rifle, Pick a load that will group out of a fouled barrel. (I think most people clean their rifles too often. Shoot 8 or ten shots out of a rifle to foul the barrel.
If you're where you can do it. Fire a single shot at a target on three seperate days or at least wait until the rifle has completely cooled down. This will give a better indication of what the rifle will do. Then zero at the appropriate distance. How often do you shoot more than once at big game animals.
GWB

1+ here

IT'S WHERE THE FIRST SHOT GOES THAT COUNTS.

WS,
What kind of stock is on your rifle? If it is wood, I would be much more concerned at what it might do going from the humidity of East Texas to the humidity of AK. You may want to ensure you don't have a pressure point on one side of your forend no matter what kind of stock. I usually want to be able to slide a dollar bill between my barrel and stock back to about 3-4 inches ahead of the action.

Always hunt with a clean, lightly lubed barrel. A freshly "fouled" barrel is never the same from shot-to-shot. No matter how many fouling shots you run through it, it will always have some small different amount of residue remaining in the bore and will shoot to the same point of impact as a barrel that was properly cleaned - if - there is nothing wrong with the rifle.

A "cold" barrel is exactly what we all Hunt with. You HAVE to hunt with a cold barrel; you have no choice (at least for the first, and by far, most important shot.)

So, clean your barrel whenever it needs it. Never shoot any fouling shots through it. Let it cool (no need to wait a day though). Then shoot it to note the location of the first shot from a pristine clean, cold barrel. This is the money shot. Follow up shots may group in a very slightly different place (but if significantly different, then you have an accuarcy problem that must be addressed).

Especially when exposed to moisture or something unavoidable like condensation from bringing a cold gun into a warm house, you should clean your barrel during the hunting season each time it goes outside. If you do, never fire any fouler shots before going hunting again.

Good Hunting and "clean" 1-shot Kills.

Mike Walker, who designed the Rem 700, etc, rifles, once showed me something about fixing changing impacts with clean vs. fouled barrels.

He finished his normal cleaning with Hoppe's #9 which has a slight amount of oil in it, enough oil to protect a bore well enough for short term storage. But, dried, it leaves a layer that won't swab out with a dry patch. So, he cleans it again just before shooting.

A wet Hoppe's patch cuts the dried oil off. Follow with three dry patches and the very slight residual oil seems to closely replicate a fired barrel. I've watched as he put the first round into several sub 3/8" groups with his "just cleaned" BR rifles. Of course this won't fix a barrel that shifts when heated.

Zero at the cold bore impacts. After that, considering that most "follow-up" shots will be at moving targets, I can't believe being off 1 MOA would be a serious handicap in the field.

It works with my factory hunting rifles too.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Always hunt with a clean, lightly lubed barrel. A freshly "fouled" barrel is never the same from shot-to-shot. No matter how many fouling shots you run through it, it will always have some small different amount of residue remaining in the bore and will shoot to the same point of impact as a barrel that was properly cleaned - if - there is nothing wrong with the rifle..

We walk on different sides of the fence on this one ole buddy. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
Mike Walker, who designed the Rem 700, etc, rifles, once showed me something about fixing changing impacts with clean vs. fouled barrels.

He finished his normal cleaning with Hoppe's #9 which has a slight amount of oil in it, enough oil to protect a bore well enough for short term storage. But, dried, it leaves a layer that won't swab out with a dry patch. So, he cleans it again just before shooting.

A wet Hoppe's patch cuts the dried oil off. Follow with three dry patches and the very slight residual oil seems to closely replicate a fired barrel. I've watched as he put the first round into several sub 3/8" groups with his "just cleaned" BR rifles. Of course this won't fix a barrel that shifts when heated.

Zero at the cold bore impacts. After that, considering that most "follow-up" shots will be at moving targets, I can't believe being off 1 MOA would be a serious handicap in the field.

It works with my factory hunting rifles too.

This is exactly the way I do it. In fact, I clean my guns by swabbing BR9, letting it soak for a few hours, then swabbing another patch. Repeat until an overnight soaked bore produces a clean patch when doused with BR9.

When I shoot, I must run 30 dry patches through the bore. I have found most often, the first shot hits right where I aim. This is especially true of custom barrels: generally hard to see a difference in point of impact between a clean and fouled bore.

Cold Bore: I have to disagree with you on this one as well; oil in the bore is going to definitely create some unpredictable results. But whatever floats your boat...I would have zero confidence in the field with an oiled barrel.

Warm barrels are the exception, not the norm. I only shoot groups when I develop a load. I never shoot groups during hunting season. Don't care, don't need em, not the hunting situation.

First shot POI is important, which theoretically should be done over the course of a whole day/days. Shoot one, wait til the gun cools down/goes back to it's "put up/gun safe" condition, shoot another, etc to see how it groups with a cold barrel ie your usual hunting situaiton.

I clean my rifles only after the season and oil the barrel. When I take them out I shoot 3 quick times into the ground to foul em and I'm ready to go hunting- then put em up or case em up go. I don't clean during the season.

Truth be known I only shot 7 rounds this year. I shot once to remind myself where my scope was sighted in (either dead on at 100 when I hunt on my land, or 2" high if I go to South Texas) and then the 6 animals I shot. That's it. Cleaned it up, oiled it up and away she went til next year.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Always hunt with a clean, lightly lubed barrel. A freshly "fouled" barrel is never the same from shot-to-shot. No matter how many fouling shots you run through it, it will always have some small different amount of residue remaining in the bore and will shoot to the same point of impact as a barrel that was properly cleaned - if - there is nothing wrong with the rifle..

We walk on different sides of the fence on this one ole buddy. roger

Roger I agree with you guess us old farts don't know any better.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
WFS, I (we) understand your interest in letting your rifle be all it can be. You've gotten some good suggestions --see if it'll do better shooting from a cold, fouled barrel-- and too, sometimes a wondering group will indicate a bedding problem. But folks have also told you that if you're still staying around an inch, you're good to go.
You've yet to respond to my post. 3 shots don't make a group. That merely shows a point of impact on the target. Shoot a few groups of 5 and see if you do indeed have a flyer problem. Better yet, shoot a few groups of 10. Find out what the rifle can really do. You haven't determined that yet.

I shoot 5 shot groups, I just watch the POI change as I go. I'm working on it...

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
WS,
What kind of stock is on your rifle? If it is wood, I would be much more concerned at what it might do going from the humidity of East Texas to the humidity of AK. You may want to ensure you don't have a pressure point on one side of your forend no matter what kind of stock. I usually want to be able to slide a dollar bill between my barrel and stock back to about 3-4 inches ahead of the action.

It passes the free float test. Its a synthetic stock. I Have another rifle of the same make and model (A-bolt) in .270 wsm does the opposite of my problem with the .338; the first 2 touch and the group opens up randomly as the barrel warms. Wait long enough between shots and the group is easly less than 1". This rifle seems to have 2 distict POI"s; one hot and one cold; which is why I was hpoing there might be a fix.

Finding this interesting, yesterday at the range I paid more attention to first shots out of two rifles, one I have already established as very accurate, and the other that has been less than satisfactory.

With the load for which the rifle was sighted in for, with a warm barrel, at the last range session, this combo shot EXACTLY to point of aim - first shot. The barrel had been cleaned with some of the foaming bore cleaner then flushed out with some electrical parts cleaner from a spray can, then swabed with the same stuff, but no oil or lube. I took the rifle to test some handloads, but figured I would try it with the proven load first - mostly to warm and foul the bore for testing the handloads.

The other rifle simply walked the shots as the barrel warmed up, which it has been consistant about. Both rifles have walnut stocks. The walking rifle has a skinny barrel, and the other has a normal medium sporter contour. Both are factory barrels.

Guess which one is ready to take hunting?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
...This rifle seems to have 2 distict POI"s; one hot and one cold; which is why I was hpoing there might be a fix.

It might be worth sending to have the barrel Cryogenically treated. That is supposed to relieve Internal Stress(es) and stabilize the Harmonic Nodes. I've not had one done, because none of mine have needed it.

The only problem is it "might" not help a thing. And that money could have been better spent on a new Barrel or on a Swap.

If you are thinking about using your 338WinMag at long distance and taking multiple shots(which is always possible), I'd suggest you try actually shooting it at the longest distance you intend to take shots at Game. Then see what the Group(s) do. If you intend to use it on Elk, Moose and Bear size Game, they have a fairly good size Kill Zone. A "Life Size" Archery Target will help put groups in a better perspective.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
WS,
What kind of stock is on your rifle? If it is wood, I would be much more concerned at what it might do going from the humidity of East Texas to the humidity of AK. You may want to ensure you don't have a pressure point on one side of your forend no matter what kind of stock. I usually want to be able to slide a dollar bill between my barrel and stock back to about 3-4 inches ahead of the action.

It passes the free float test. Its a synthetic stock. I Have another rifle of the same make and model (A-bolt) in .270 wsm does the opposite of my problem with the .338; the first 2 touch and the group opens up randomly as the barrel warms. Wait long enough between shots and the group is easly less than 1". This rifle seems to have 2 distict POI"s; one hot and one cold; which is why I was hpoing there might be a fix.

At least if its synthetic your results should not be different when the humidity changes. But don't assume the bedding is not a problem just because it is syn. You may benefit from checking the bedding and possibly rebedding the action especially if you are seeing the POI "walk" as the rifle heats. But as others have said, if the change is 2 MOA or less, it probably will not cause a problem in most hunting circumstances.
Good luck and let us know what the solution is.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Always hunt with a clean, lightly lubed barrel. A freshly "fouled" barrel is never the same from shot-to-shot. No matter how many fouling shots you run through it, it will always have some small different amount of residue remaining in the bore and will shoot to the same point of impact as a barrel that was properly cleaned - if - there is nothing wrong with the rifle..

We walk on different sides of the fence on this one ole buddy. roger

I'm with Roger on this one.....I clean my barrels at the range and then fire a few rounds thru it and take it home and put it away for hunting season.

I far prefer to hunt with a "fouled" barrel than a lightly lubed one!

22 cal target match rifles require one shot to warm up the barrel. Once the barrel is warm, the groups are tight. First "warming" shot is a flyer.

Great input from all here.

You could always "fire a warning shot" first when you see the animal you are gonna shoot, then your next shot will be accurate.

I will be checking my cold bore shot on my target rifle when I get home. In our precision matches, the first stage is always a 1-shot stage; a cold bore shot at 600 yards. I need to heed some of the good advice here and do some testing.

quote:

Is there anything else I can try before I spend a whole bunch of $$ on more bullet/powder combos? If most loads do it, is it the rifle, not the loads? Any ideas?

There is nothing we can change in a load that will negate the fact that some barrels warp a bit with heat.

The only round that usually needs precision in a hunting rifle is the first. After that, most game will be running so deliberate, precise shot placement won't be possible anyway.

I fire mostly one shot groups on game once in awhile two shot groups and then very rarely 3 shot groups.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:


If you are thinking about using your 338WinMag at long distance and taking multiple shots(which is always possible), I'd suggest you try actually shooting it at the longest distance you intend to take shots at Game. Then see what the Group(s) do. If you intend to use it on Elk, Moose and Bear size Game, they have a fairly good size Kill Zone. A "Life Size" Archery Target will help put groups in a better perspective.

Best of luck to you.

It actually groups really well at 300 yds, groups about the size of a beer can. Problem is in Houston weather I'm never really sure the barrel cools all the way between shots so I wonder if I'm not fooling myself. I'll have to make an effort to shoot true cold barrel groups and like other folks have suggersted, go it over a few sessions.

Hey WS, If you choose to Clean it between shots, the cleaning fluid helps cool the barrel. And you can always set it so the Butt is on the ground with the Muzzle up which creates a chimney effect that draws cooler(ambient temp) air in through the chamber.

You mentioned Alaska, so perhaps you got a Stainless rifle. If not, this will be a good Test for it. Just lay a wet towel on the barrel to cool it down. Some folks recommend using ice from a cooler, but regular temp water does fine. Have the barrel slightly muzzle down for this.

I generally feel a barrel to see how warm it is. Just feel it before you start, or use another unshot rifle as a reference. You can hold it and feel the heat if it is still warm.

quote:

I see some folks do not grasp "Lightly Lubed". I do it similar to what Jim C. mentioned:
Mike Walker ... finished his normal cleaning with Hoppe's #9 which has a slight amount of oil in it, enough oil to protect a bore well enough for short term storage. But, dried, it leaves a layer that won't swab out with a dry patch.

In my case I use a Moly Grease after cleaning and then wipe the Bore dry with a couple of "Paper Shop Towel" patches to remove any excess. It leaves just enough to protect the Bore from Pitting due to inclimate weather conditions, yet not enough to be a Bore Obstruction(aka Lightly Lubed).

I have no objection to Mr. Walker's recommendation to clean(the already clean Bore) again prior to shooting - since it is totally impossible to Over-Clean a Barrel.

Beer can size groups will serve you well on the Alaskan Hunt. Now you can concentrate on practice and muscle memory(plus cleaning ).

Best of luck on the Hunt. Good Hunting and "clean" 1-shot Kills.

I always use a light coating of WD40 after all the copper is out. That gives me an off first shot Just like oil. but that WD40 protects my barrel.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jro45:
I always use a light coating of WD40 after all the copper is out. That gives me an off first shot Just like oil. but that WD40 protects my barrel.I've been doing that for the last
48 years

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

You mentioned Alaska, so perhaps you got a Stainless rifle. If not, this will be a good Test for it. Just lay a wet towel on the barrel to cool it down. Some folks recommend using ice from a cooler, but regular temp water does fine. Have the barrel slightly muzzle down for this.

I'll give this a whack thnx.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
A while ago I got a new .338 WM for my upcoming trip to AK this fall and began working up loads for the 225 gr TSX using IMR 4350. I immediately noticed that that cold barrel prints 1+" right on most loads, especially those closer to max. The Warm barrel group more or less cloverleafs. I settled on a slower load that minimized the left/right difference.

Now I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to get the hotter loads to shoot better. I experimented with seating depth and primers - no luck. Factory 225 gr SAF's do the same thing.

Is there anything else I can try before I spend a whole bunch of $$ on more bullet/powder combos? If most loads do it, is it the rifle, not the loads? Any ideas?

For HUNTIMG the only thing that matters is where the second shot goes when the first is fired from a cold barrel.

and if that second shot isn't fired as soon as you can cycle the action and aquire a sight picture you aren't doing it right.

IF you really think you'd get a third shot in a hunting situation go ahead and fire a third but again, it must be done quickly....

I find that point of impact shifts from barrel heat tend to not happen as much if you don't allow the heat TIME to radiate from the bore...

AD