I need a rifle quick for a "hunting Rifle" course I'm taking at the end of the month. What's my best bet for an "off the shelf" rifle? I can pick up any of the m70 Win., m77 Ruger or m700 Rem. quickly. I need advice on the best choice. I'm thinking 308 win with a Leupold VxII 3X9 on it. I'd be interested in opinions. I anm predisposed toward the three position safeties and controlled round feed but I hear the Remingtons are generally more accurate.

I have owned all three and on average the 700's have been the most accurate.I now own only customs but all are built on 700 actions.

I have all three, but my favorite is the M-70 Featherweight. Mine shoot well and are just good looking rigs.

Pick the one that you like the best.
I have had real good luck with the Remington Model 7's in 308. Definitely get a 308, great hunting caliber and you can get surplus 308 ammo for inexpensive shooting. They have all shot real good. I recommend that you get the Leupold Vari-XIII 2.5x8 instead. It has very repeatable "click" adjustments which come in handy for long range shooting, and for adjusting your zero with different ammo.

If you want an accurate, well fitting rifle out of the box, then get a Sako Model 75.

Tim

citori3,

You're covering a large territory without very much information so I will give you my opinions and I will make some assumptions that you haven't mentioned so indulge me. If you are interested in the.308 I will assume that most of your shots will be inside of 300 yards and that you could hunt in a variety of scenarios and terrains. That being said I would want to take advantage of a short action in a carbine configuration for handiness and less weight. I would also opt for a model in synthetic for all kinds of weather.

Based on my own experiences, controlled round feed unless your are in battle or in Africa is a non issue. If it is your preference then I would go to Ruger with no hesitation. The other criteria that comes into play is preferences for style, accuracy, reliability. For myself I don't care about style (to me a rifle is a tool) so that leaves reliability and accuracy. Based on my experience I would go with Savage first and Ruger a very close second. For pure accuracy out of the box Savage hands down. Now I am basing this on the fact that I have owned all these brands at some point.

If you are thinking of this as a one gun does all, I would go with 165 grain bullets, probably Swift A-Frames. The 165 grain seems to be the ideal weight in the .308 and I would go with premium bullets for a very good reason. To me one of the oddest things I've seen over the years is guys that will put literally thousands into a hunt by way of rifles and gear and then buy the cheapest ammunition going. If you're serious about hunting, the bullet is what gets the job done. I don't want to guess that a bullet will get the job done, I want to know that when I pull the trigger, that animal's going down. Cheap bullets is false economy.

Didn't mean to turn this into a novel but I hope this helps you to decide. That's my two cents anyway.

citori3,

Sorry about that, I forgot about the scope. I would go with a compact model with the carbine I described i.e. Burris 2X7. You won't need anymore than that.

I sometimes wonder, why in hell, when somebody asks a question pertaining to, in this case, three makes of rifles, others interject comments about other rifles. The question was for information abour Winchester, Remington, and Ruger rifle. Not savage, SAKO, or any other brand.
I have rifles in all three brands, some are .308's, the cartridge in question, some in other cartridges. So, first off, what is the accuracy necessary for the purpose at hand. This is a "hunting rifle" course we're looking at, so while .5" accuracy is desireable, it is NOT necessary. Any rifle that will deliver 1.5" or better in more than accurate enough for any big game the .308 is suitable for. Saying anything else is just plain snobbism.
So, I will discuss the three makes of rifles, based on the experience I have.
1. Winchester Model 70. I have three rifles that are model 70s. one a .308, another in 7x57 and a .338 Win. Mag. The .308 is the Youth Ranger model that I won in a raffle. The stock being too short for me, I restocked it in a used Ramline for a short action Winchester I had laying around. The only work done to the rifle was a trigger job. This rifle will do from 3/8" to 1.25 inch depending on the ammo used. (factory vs handloads)All the others will do from 1.0 to 1.25" depending on ammo.
In Remington's, I have a mod. 660 in .308, three 30-06s, a .35 Whelen. All are in the 1.0 to 1.5" range. The 660 is probably as close to a model 7 as I can get. Overall average groups run in the 1.25" range.
For the Ruger's, I currently have three in the RSI model (International) a .35 Whelen, two in .358 Win. I have had others in .243, .308 and 7x57. The last one I have is a wildcat, the .375 Taylor, a .338 mag. necked up to .375 caliber.
The RSI's are quite fussy about ammo, especially bullet type. The 180 gr. spitzers do shotgun patterns, but the 180 gr. Sierra round nose will do .5" if I do my part. The Whelen is a 1.25" with both weights of factory ammo literally shooting to the same point of impact. The .358s are a mix, one shooting fairly good groups, the other all over the place so far.
All the above are push feed rifles. All have been reasonably trouble free. The Rem. 660 had to have the extractor replaced as the original wore out. That rifle has had over 5,000 full power loads through it and God only knows how many cast bullet loads. I can't comment on the Ruger 77 Mk II as I don't have one and I dislike the fact that the trigger in not adjustable. Other than that, they're probably OK.
All the rifles mentioned should be just fine. What I would do, if I were in your shoes is try eack model out for feel and how the sights (scope) lines up with yuour eye. That's the one I would choose.
When I bought my first Ruger RSI, it was used. The guy was honest enough to say it was inaccurate. I looked at the light switch on his wall, closed my eyes and snapped the rifle to my shoulder. When I opened my eyes, the crosshairs on the scope were exactly on the button of the switch. I gave the guy the $300 he was asking without a quibble. He even threw in the dies, brass and ammo he had for it. The load I finally settled for was a 165 gr. Speer spitzer that did 1.25" if I did my part. All deer taken with tha rifle have been one shot kills at ranges from about 25 yards to a laser measured 250 yards.
So, pick the one you like best. They're all good. You just might have to "tinker" with it a bit.
Paul B.

Paul,

Your catch phrase signature is contrary to most of everything in your last Post.

I'll take the .5 minute gun(as they IS available) and you can bask in compromise.

Make mine a Remington and the LSS Mountain in particular. Obliged.................

PaulB(igmouth)

Who the hell made you God of the forum? I gave Citori3 some sound advice based on over 40 years experience. I would not deliberately steer him wrong. He asked about the three that were on the top of his list. I also gave him some further options to chew on. Did you honestly think that when someone asks for opinions that the people that respond won't give their recommendations?

Now that being said, let's analyze your post shall we. He didn't ask about 7X57, 30-06, 338WM or 35 Whelens. He also didn't ask about 243, 358, 375 Taylor. He didn't ask about after market stocks or trigger jobs. And he sure as hell didn't ask about your Remington 660 with the broken extractor.

And as Big Stick already stated, your catch phrase doesn't match the content of your post. Big Stick's recommendation was very good by the way. So before you start throwing stones, I would look in the mirror and then I would keep your nose out of my business.

Go to a gunshop and handle each one of the ones that you talked about. Many times it's a persons particular way they hold a rifle or their physical size that matters most.

And get what you want and make it work. There are many adequate rifles. If it's a particular safety and CRF you want then get it. Maybe your second rifle will be different from what your first is from what you learn.

Remingtons had a reputation for accuracy earned from the 50's. They were a good cheap gun.

Remington has been sold by Dupont and they don't even make the 700 anymore. It's farmed out to some other company to make for them! Now a skilled gunsmith can turn a Remington into a silk purse but I would not bother with one if I were you.

citori3

I basically agree with Savage99.

I have no idea what accuracy your Hunter Course requires but I am sure all 3 brands will be OK.

If selecting between Ruger, Model 70 and Rem 700 then out of the box accuracy would be the last of my selection criteria. In fact it would not even be one of my selection criteria.

As Savage99 said, pick which one you like and then make it work.

Mike

Thanks for all your thoughts. Unfortunately, Handling all three in any meaningful way is not an option. Illinois is not rifle country! I was surprised to learn that my favorite gunshop and two Galyans stores didn't even have all three in 30-06! I thought that was about as plain vanilla as you can get. They all have the latest short magnums. Go figure!

The course I'm taking is to "teach hunters their capabilities and those of their rifle out to 500yds." It's a two day course rerequiring 150 rounds. I shoot alot of handgun and a good bit of shotgun but very little rifle. Few places to shoot. I have a winchester m70 ranger in 30-06. It's the push feed m70 with a plain Jane stock and the featherweight barrel. I put a Bushnell Trophy 1.5X 5 on it years ago. I'm thinking of putting the Leupold 3X9 on it and seeing how I do. Right now I'd call myself a "poor" shot. I don't know if it's me, the rifle, or the scope. I hope I don't waste $400 and two days on the course! Any opinions on whether my existing rifle will get me through? Time and shooting facilities don't allow me to spend familiarization time before I go.

Savage99, you say remington is farming out the manufacture of the 700 to another company? Must be a damn big company to make as many 700's as remington sells. Do you know which company it is? Has this happened recently? Two months ago I talked to the factory and they were making 700's in Ilion at that time. ?????

Actually, from your last post, I would think you have all the rifle you need for the course. It sounds like an opportunity to learn a good bit about yourself rather than an opportunity to show off what a great shot you are. Good luck.

Citori3,

Just a couple of thoughts,

1. You say you're not a good rifle shot, what are you basing that on? Or maybe what are your expectations for your shooting? I'm not comfortable shooting deer at a distance greater than I can hit a paper plate from a field shooting position.

2. Has anyone who you consider to be a "good shot" fired your present rifle and how did they do with it?

3. Consider putting better optics on your present rifle and limping along through class with it. You'll see what other people are shooting and hear their BS...errr opinions and see how that works out. Even if you buy one rifle now you're liable to go to class and fall in love with some other rifle. If you're looking for an excuse to buy a new rifle, wait till you get to see how all the other's work.

4. That Ranger may not be the most refined rifle in the rack but it is a Winchester at heart and you can get someone to barrel it, stock it or tweak it into a pretty good gun for less than the purchase of another rifle.

I personally like Rugers and Winchesters, but wouldn't turn down a Remington if Ed McMahon knocked on my door with one right now.

Rick

PS~ If you don't have the time to debug your present rifle you aren't going to be able to learn the new one before class and I'll bet the instructor isn't going to have time to help you set your rifle up during class.

[ 06-02-2003, 04:14: Message edited by: Rick R ]

I agree with beemanbeme, just put a decent scope (Leupold 2.5-8x or if cost is an issue, a VariX II 3-9x) on the rifle you have and go shooting.

You may also want to buy some WipeOut bore cleaner and make sure you start off with a really clean barrel. If it needs it, get the trigger adjusted and make sure all of the screws are tightened correctly. If you do all of those things, you should get "hunting accuracy" out of your current rifle.

Tim

beemanbeme,

Forget trying to impress anyone, my goal is to avoid making a fool of myself!

Also, isn't half the reason for taking a course like this to use it to convince the wife you "need" a new gun?

N E 450 No 2,

I think the VX II has 1/4" click adjustments. Is the VX III more repeatable?

Rick R<

Responding to your questions/Thoughts:

1) The few times I've shot I grouped 5-6". This was from a bench with the forestock supported and no bag under the butstock.

2) No others have shot the rifle. I don't know any rifle shooters. Like I said, Illinois is not rifle country.

3) I am coming around to your logic on this.

4)Local gunsmiths would rather sell you a new rifle. At least those I know.

I believe that the VX-II scopes originally had the non-click friction adjustments and the VX-III did have them. The VX-III also has better lens coating (I think).
You might give Premier Reticles a call and check out what their opinions and pricing are:
http://www.premierreticles.com/index2.html

Just one more bit of nosy-ness your 5"-6" groups, what range was that shot at? Was the gun shot off of bags or soft surfaces and what type of ammo did you use? You might change bullet weight, ammo brand or something and suddenly it's a 1/2" rifle.

Plan B - Come home from school crushed because you need to replace the old gal with some whizbang can't live without rifle, send her off to someone for refurbishing and start reloading to "save money" on ammo for practice and hunting. (Oh! and buy a gun safe to keep the lil woman from conducting an inventory)

Enjoy the school

Rick

[ 06-02-2003, 05:07: Message edited by: Rick R ]

Rick R,

Range was 100 yards. Shot off a plastic Midway USA rest with a sand filled bag on the rest. Ammo was whatever I picked up on the way to the range or my own reloads with Hornady 150 gr. softpoints and some amount of 4350 below the max loads listed in the manuals. As you can tell from this post, I've never really tried to wring all the accuracy out of the rifle or me. I'm a handgun/shotgun guy that bought a rifle to play with. You can't even hunt in illinois or southern Wisconsin with a rifle. Public range is 1.5 hour drive.

I'm thinking about a trip to Africa so I'm starting to get serious with the rifle. By the way, I also have a cz 550 in 375 H&H that I love. No scope on it yet and no target work, but I usually hit spray paint cans at the plinking range at 30-50 yards with the iron sights. I don't want to use this rifle in the class for fear of developing a flinch with that much shooting in two days. OK, I'm a wimp.

Plan C ~ Get a new rifle (after class). Start saving money for trip to Africa.

Maybe I'll see you there when I make my first trip May 2004 .

Mike S laughed at me, but I've been practicing on shooting sticks with my Ruger M77/22 out to 50yds or so on those little metal swinging targets. After shooting on those, my 7" gong is easy at 100yds with the Ruger #1 in .405.

Don't be too afraid of being "embarrased" in class. I attended the Army's Law Enforcement Counter Drug Countersniper School (what a mouthfull of Bureaucratese!) last year and some guys showed up for school with rifles that still had pricetags on them. They were literally putting scopes on Sunday night in their motel rooms! Several washed out the first day of shooting when they had to keep five rounds in a 10" circle at 100yds with an AR-15, prone, using sandbags.

I'd say if the class was to learn my capabillities out to 500yds, I'd learn that I need to stalk 2-300yds closer before I shoot.
But have fun and remember most guys don't have the cajones to admit they might learn something in a shooting school so you're several steps ahead of the pack.

Rick

citori3,

You mentioned the options M70 and 308 in your original post. Well, IMO, there is a perfect solution to your dilema. It is called M70 Classic Compact, and it is one sweeeeet little rifle. Too bad it was taken from me about an hour after I bought it. You see, I let my wife hold it and she refuses to give it back. It's really okay though because she needed it for our '02 caribou hunt. I'm sure they're still talking about her in northern Quebec.

Back to the rifle: It's a short, classic, CRF action, with 20 inch sporter weight barrel, blued/walnut, cut checkered, and schnabel forend tip. The LOP was a trifle short so I added a vented recoil pad (that the gun needed anyways). It is scoped with a LOOpold VX-1 3-9x40, which is a little more scope than is needed on this gun, but the wife likes it. IMO, this gun is pure joy to shoot and to look at. The only thing missing are backup open sights.

Live well

Big Redhead,

Thanks for the suggestion. By the way are we the last two people on earth that want open sights on a bolt action rifle? Few seem to have them today. I like to know they're there just in case the scope gets funny at an inopportune moment. I'm surpised my Ranger has them while Winchesters higher end models don't.

citori,

We know more now and a course with 150 shots over only two days is a lot of recoil to take from a .30. The 5" groups are not good at that range. Some of the reason may be your aiming and then the present scope and rifle are suspect also.

Here is a site where you can read how to adjust the floor plate screws on your Winchester. www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AdjustingWinTrigger.htm

Get a slip on recoil pad at Walmart and a double set of ear protection, both plugs and muffs. You say there are no gunshops. Do the Walmarts there carry rifles? Check www.shotgunnews.com/gunshow/index.dog

Beeman,

I heard that Smith & Wesson is making the 700 barreled actions for Rem.

I've not owned one in 308, but I have owned Rem700 BDL's in 6mm Rem and 25-06, several Ruger 77's (tang safety version) in 6mm and 25-06, and now a Ruger 77MkII in 270Win. This is a stainless/laminate model, with Timney trigger, bedded and wears a Leupold Vari-x2 3-9x40 scope. With factory ammo, it's not all that great, but with handloads, it will put 3 shots into a small clover leaf group at 100 yards. Some of these groups are almost one hole. Rifle purchased in Nov 2000, if that helps. Friend of mine has a relatively new Win M70 CRF, same calibre, doesn't shoot worth a shit. Go Ruger (but replace the trigger)!!

There's nothing wrong with wanting to buy a rifle, but for now, I'd stick with the Ranger you've got.

Maybe you'll find out during the class that your Ranger is a tack driver. Maybe you'll find you get better to a point, and then your gun is the limiting factor. Maybe you'll see something you especially like while taking the class, and then you'll have a better idea what you want to buy. Maybe you're going to end up wanting to buy the kind of rifle your instructor shoots.

You might find out before class that any accuracy issues with your Ranger are fixed by putting on the Leupold.

H. C.

Wife: "Just how many damn rifles do you need?"

Me: "One more"



One point, if you show up with too slick a rig, the instructors may feel that you don't need any help and pass you by. Shortly after the earth's crust cooled, I was a boot at the rifle range in Parris Island. The instructor asked if any of us were proficient with a high powered rifle. A few guys, feeling very good about themselves, held up their hands. They got to police up the parade ground while the rest of us sat thru an intro lecture. They were gathered in after the lecture, during the "were you paying attention" question period. And, of course, the instructor directed most of his questions to them. When they didn't have the answers, he was not too gentle with his redicule. Taught the rest of us to shut up, pay attention, and keep you damn hand out of the air.

Put a good scope on your Ranger and go. I reload for a friend who has the same rifle. After a little rifle tuning (bedding the action and free floating the barrel), adjusting the trigger, and load fiddling, he has a good rifle that consistantly puts 150 gr Barnes x bullets into sub .5" groups at 100 meters. You've got a Cinderella rifle there. Give it a chance to show you it's stuff. - Dan

[ 06-02-2003, 19:04: Message edited by: dan belisle ]

citori3
Know what you mean about finding a good rifle assortment in Illinois. Fortunately that has recently changed a bit as Gander Mountain opened up a huge store in Geneva. Another very good shop is MegaSports in Plainfield.

I'm guessing you have been doing your shooting at Buffalo Range? If so,the plinking pit gave you away

I have to respond to the comments to me made by Big Stick and Savage 49494.

First to Big Stick. My signature has absolutely NOTHING to do with a choice of firearms or anything else. It is in relation to my total and absolute dislike of the NRA's compromising on gun control. Nothing, Nothing less. Those who have seen my comments on that matter know exactly where I stand. I don't like their allowing the government to slowly whittle away my gun rights via compromise. UNDERSTAND?

Savage. So you have 40 years experience. Well Lah dee dah. Let's see what is so infuriating. The question involved three SPECIFIC makes of rifle. I attempted to answer the SPECIFIC qyuestion, BASED on my experience with the three makes of rifle in question, and not clutter it up with adding other brands of rifle to confuse the issue.
You have absolutely no fucking idea what my experience is, which may just be considerably much greater than yours, or maybe not. That is really irrelevant. At no time was I insulting to you. Granted, you made well meaning comments to Citori3, but they weren't answering his question. I read a post from someone asking for advice on specific material. I read the answers, and if I see something the others may have missed, I jump in with information I hope will help out.
Let's take the "broken extractor" comment. I've always had some reservation about the extractor on Remington rifles. I've worked as an apprentice to a gunsmith in years past, and we replaced several of those extractors for the same reason as I had to replace mine. Some of them had softer metal and wore out rapidly. Probably would not happen on a new rifle, but I don't trust 'em anymore. That's based on MY personal experience.
Certainly I mentioned more than one cartridge. Be kind of dumb to have as many rifles as I do, all in one chambering. The point I was trying to bring out is any of the three rifles he was looking at would be just fine.
I believe I said to pick out the one he liked best. That they were all good, although he might have to "tinker" with it to get the best out of it. Now where in hell do you find fault with that?

My apologies to the rest of the room for my vulgarities. I just could not sit still for the comments made by two individuals who apparently dislike any form of disagreement to their way of thinking. My post was intended to inform the qualities of three different makes of rifle to help an individual make up his mind. I did not need the trashing these rectal orifaces decided to bestow on me. As far as I am concerned, they can kiss my rosy rusty dusty.
Paul B.

Well,well PaulB, now you know how it feels to be on the receiving end. I'm not going to make this into a long pissing contest so I'll tell you what. I didn't appreciate your smart assed comment about how I answered his post. So, you keep your comments about other posts to yourself and I'll respect your posts as I would hope you would mine. I have no problem getting rowdy in the political forum but over here we're all hunters and enthusiasts. How about it? Do we have a deal?

PaulB,

Didn't figure you to be as emotional as you are dense. I stand corrected.

That you are willing to happily compromise on some things,stand supposedly steadfast on others and then dote on a signature that states simply that "compromise is not an option" is an amazing contradiction.

Glad you clarified your convictions,as one who is easily swayed. Perhaps give thought to your text,before you submit it to the masses?!!?

Food for thought,as you get giddy over a 1.5MOA rifle.....................

I've recently had problems with a M77 that misfired new out of the box. Maybe it was a fluke,maybe its a problem that is going to surface in new M77's,I've heard of the special edition Whelens having a similar problem. The ruger is going to need a trigger job,to ring out all its potential,mines plenty accurate,when it fires. I've never had a problem with a M700 and the triggers adjust easily. The M70 has a solid track record also and its best trait is its simple trigger and crf if you buy into that bullshit. I personally wouldn't limit yourself to these three manufactureres for a .308,I'd look at tikka also,its what remington used to be in the 1980's and its smooth.

Citori,

I have not shot a 700, but have shot the Ruger and the 77. It is important for it to be one that fits you, without having that ability to try them all out though you might have to get one, then when it doesn't feel "just right" tell your wife it didn't work out and you need another. :-)

My stepbrothers have a pair of 70 featherweights, different calibers. Both are a pleasure to carry and one is a pleasure to shoot. (one is in 06 and has standard thin plastic buttplate, not a lot of fun after a few shots). I really like those featherweights and that would be my choice out of the 3.

I think that your rifle will shoot much better than it has so far. And there are any number of reasons for it not shooting better for you (loose bases or rings, faulty scope etc). Although I think it is great to take advantage of every opportunity to get another firearm, I would personnally say take it with you to the class. Try a different scope first, if you do buy a Leupold you will have a quality scope and can eliminate that part of the worries.

Whether or not you buy a new rifle, take the old one with you. Ask one of the instructors to shoot it and see how it performs. Whenever I wonder if it is me or the rifle I have a person I know shoots well fire it for me and see the results.

Most importantly, have fun at the class! :-)

Red

You all have made Natchez Shooters supply happy!

I've decided to go with my current rifle. I bought a Leupold VXII 3X9 40, Leupold quick release two piece bases and rings to replace the existing scope. As I was logging-off from placing my order, I noticed they had a closeout on Ramline stocks for my rifle. I picked up one of those as well. Not pretty, but it has a butt pad and was cheaper than having one installed on my stock. Finally, a Tipton gun vise to help put it all together.

Thanks for all your replies. Hopefully I'll get this all together before the class!

I forgot to mention. I've also got 120 rds. of Federal Gold Medal Match 168 gr. cartridges coming.

Citori,

It's always a pleasure to help a brother shooter spend his money

Let us know how the class goes, we may have some more suggestions to decrease your children's inheritance.

Rick

I think you made a good decision. One thing I would do would be to make sure you clean the barrel really well. By really well I mean strip all the copper out of it with a good copper solvent like barnes CR10. You'd be suprised how many shooters have never really cleaned their barrels, most will just take the powder fouling out with a brush and some hoppes and call it good. Copper build up in the rough barrels the factories use will really play havoc with accuracy a lot of the time.

Boltman,

You may be on to something. I've had the rifle locked in my new gun vice all day. I'll run a patch of Pro Shot copper solvent through, follow with a brisle brush and let it sit for awhile. I've been getting green pathes out all day. Apparently I had some serious copper fouling. The gun vice makes this whole process easier so I guess I'm just doing a better job than I've ever done before. Any thoughts on how I can avoid such fouling in the future? Should I get one of those foul out electochemical cleaners? Any way to smooth the bore? Lapping?