The post running hear that asks what is everyones favorit factory rifle, and the number of negative responses got me to thinking. If todays factory rifles are so bad, what is a guy such as myself who plans on buying two to three more rifles in different calibers and I quite simply cant afford the $3000 to $5000 price tag of a custom rifle suposed to do? And before anyone suggets it, Sako and Weatherby are both out of my price range.

I mean I would like to buy a M77 MKII SS/LAM, a M700 mountain rifle in SS/LAM, and probubly one more rifle in a SS/SYN variation.

Do I actually need any of these rifles, hell no. I at present own a 700 BDL SS/SYN W/DM in .338wm that is a 100% Gods honest truth .5MOA rifle with both 225 grn Interloks and Partitions, .8 MOA with 180 & 200grn Nosler BTs and 200grn Interloks, but as thay say I man can never own too meny rifles.

So whats a man of average means to do when all he can afford is factory rifles? As I see it I will most likely buy the rifles I listed above as I have little other choice. If I do buy another M700 I will replace the factory trigger for safety sake, although I have NEVER had a single problem with the six Remingtons (four 870s, one 1100, and one M700) I own.

I posted a similar question a few months ago, specifically referring to the general dislike of Remington's, got mixed replies; I have several Rugers, a couple of Weatherbys, a couple of Remington 700's and one Winchester M70, and have never had a single problem with any of them. But then, I only sight rifles in and then hunt with them, and do not go to the range otherwise. IMHO, factory rifles are of sufficient quality for 99% of the hunters out there.....

PS- I took my Remington M700 7mm RUM to Alaska last month for sheep/moose, beat the hell out of it, rocks, water, dirt, horses, snow,... Had no problems whatsoever...
Craig

ART338

see if you can go an handle a cz if you have not already some don't like them but there are a lot happy cz owners out there. I have 5 of them and am happy with them.

If you want Sako accuracy at Ruger prices, buy youself a Tikka. After you shoot it you'll probably buy 2 more.

VH

There are plenty of well made, high quality, affordable rifles.

You've been given two excellent options (CZ and Tikka).

I'll give you another one: Howa. Specifically its 1500, also sold here as the Weatherby Vanguard (back in the W line up), Mossberg 1500, and Smith & Wesson 1500.

For budget rifles either my BLR in 300 WinMag, or my Ruger 77 RSI in 308(tang safety model bought used) work really well. They are both accurate enough and a little different from what everybody else carries.

I'd buy either one of the above again, I'd also look at the Weatherby Vanguard and the various Savage models. The Vanguard is under $400 in composite and under $500 in Walnut, the Savages seem to be mostly under $400, at the Houston Gun Show where I got mine BLR's last year were going for $495 new. I guess an RSI would cost around $500 or so new but any of these woud make a good hunting choice.

Art, I'm very pleased with my 5 Remingtons and 1 Model 70 30-06 I have, they all shoot really well, I just can't get the 22-250 of my son's to shoot below 1/2", and that's with a 19oz. factory trigger, I put a Jewell on the 6mm last year because I couldn't get that trigger below 2lbs, now the 223 wears that trigger, just because that's the rifle I'll shoot the most from now on at Pdogs and such, so, since I know how to adjust the Remmie triggers to an acceptable level, I just got to go back to them when I want another rifle, cause they shoot and shoot, I do like the Winchester's, but would have to put a different trigger on them since I can't get those triggers to under 2.5lbs, and actually from some of the lastest Win. I've looked at, they don't have a really good fit and finish, some Rem. models are like that also, you just have to check the rifle out good before buying it, for now I'll stick to Remingtons, unless they come out with a non-adjustable trigger , Jay

If you'd like I'll e-mail my instructions for the Rem. trigger, pretty simple really, I mean, if I can do it, anyone can.

[ 10-28-2003, 17:54: Message edited by: Jay Gorski ]

There's always Savage if accuracy is your #1 priority!

Ruger KM77RSP

-CRF
-3 pos safety
-integral mounts
-synthetic stock
-rugged
-handsome
-accurate

Art338, if you've got a good eye, don't overlook vintage Remingtons. With luck, you'll find one.

I posted a question about this a year or so ago and got some advice that has turned out to be very good for me. Buy used rifles with a history of good quality! Pre-64 Winchester M70's, early tang safety Ruger M77's (although I haven't personally had much experience with these), Savage 99's, etc., etc.. Since I was given this advice I have bought a Savage 99 (1951 vintage), two pre-64 M70's (1950 and 1956 vintages) and a M71 Winchester (1946 vintage). All are of high quality and operate exceedingly smoothly and are as accurate as anyone needs for hunting within their respective reasonable ranges. Although any of these would be pre-owned by now they can cost as much or more than a brand new factory rifle, but I think the quality is worth it and there are many out there that have been well taken care (also a lot that haven't).

Because cost is a factor for me as well, what I have tried to do is really think about the kind of hunting that I do currently and what I would like to do in the future and choose a small battery that will do everything that I could ever ask with few sacrifices. In the long run you may not have as many guns, but you will have good quality guns of high quality.

Hope this helps,
Bob

The sad part is that they are only going to up in price. So, you better buy now while they're cheap . That's how I'm trying to justify a few more guns for my new born son. He's gonna have to hunt with something when he turns 12.

Seriously though, I think Remington M700 is a good choice. It's a solid rifle that produces some excellent accuracy, regardless of the badmouthing. It's not the cheapest, but not nearly the most expensive either. As for Weatherby, I have one and won't be buying anymore. I absolutely love the way the gun feels, but for that price tag I expect much better accuracy.

Art, is's like most things in life, cars, women, guns, you pay your money & take your chances. Get the factory rifle you like & hopefully it shoots fine. I had a box stock Ruger #1S in 7mag that never shot over 2" w/ anything I put thru it. I had it rechambered to 7mm Dakota & it still shoots MOA.
You can also spend alot on a "cutom" rifle & still have one that shoots no better than a factory job. Get a Ruger, Win. or Rem. & go to work.

I've bought new Remington 700s, Browning A-Bolts, and Win M70s in the last couple of years have had no issues at all. I take all of the lack of quality stuff with a grain of salt, especially the lack of safety. People are absolutely nuts if they think ANY firearm from a major manufacturer isn't safe in this sue happy society that is chomping at the bit to put all gun makers out of business. Too many of the opinions are full of predjudice that is easy to see through.

Of course you're going to find rifle snobs on a website like accuratereloading where nothing, but the best will do. This is our hobby, and some guys can afford it, others can't, but do it anyway. Heck I have hardly any hair left, but my girlfriend, who is a high-end hair dresser, will not let me get a hair cut at a discount joint because she can see things that 99.99% of the population wouldn't notice

In any case, I have no doubt, you can purchase just about any new rifle, put a quality scope on it and hunt in happy ignorance for the rest of your life w/ trouble free (and accurate) shooting. As long as you don't tell your Remington mt rifle (when you buy it) it is not controlled round feed, I'm sure it will work for whatever you want to hunt with it

-Lou

Thanks to everyone for such well thought and sound advice. It all basically mirrored my gut instinct on this subject.

I will be buying at least one new M77, one or two M700s, and possibly an A-Bolt in the near future.

Again, great thanks.
Art.

Art... what calibers are you think'n on getting? Just curious

There are a number of good buys out there. For under $500, there are the Howa's, the Tikka's, and the SHR970. I can't say anything about the CZ.

For under $1000, you might want to look hard at the Sauer 202. A good piece of steel, good trigger, good barrel, and high versatility.

There is nothing wrong with buying proven older models, if you buy "NIB", and are willing to pay the premium those models demand. JMO, Dutch.

I hunt a lot of big game and prefer Mod. 70s and CZs as first choice. REM. & Rugers 2nd choice. I own some of each. I will not buy another JAP made rifle or shotgun !
U.S. & European (IMO) are the most reliable. I hunt in temperatures of -20 to 95 degrees.
All my firearms have dents and scratches(I fall down alot)been wet,dusty,hot and dropped,frozen(NOT GOOD).
Get advice from people who hunt alot, not once a year.

You might consider a Savage. The fit and finish is usually not quite as good as a more expensive rifle but mine shoots very well (1/2" groups at 100 yards with 300 Win Mag). With a savage you can also switch barrels (you need a special wrench to fit the barrel and you can headspace it yourself with no special tools)and make it more affordable to own more than one caliber. This way you can get the bedding and trigger tuned on one gun, use the same scope and save yourself some money. I plan on keeping the factory barrel to hunt with, and I am going to buy a target grade barrel in a smaller caliber to use in the "off" season.

I used to work in the retail music industry, selling guitars (electric and acoustic). The parallels are amazing. In the guitar world, ALL old guitars are better than ALL new guitars. Bullshit. Likewise, ALL old Winchesters are better than ALL new Winchesters. ALL Rugers are POS's, bullshit. ALL Rem 700's are fantastic. I've onwed several Rem700's, at least 5 Ruger 77's, all tang safety, except for my current one, which is a MkII, a CZ527, have used family members' Win70's, (yes, pre 64, post 64 p/f's, etc), CZ's, Sako's, Anschutz's, etc., etc.
The current love of my life is my Ruger 77MkII, Stainless/Laminate, 270win, leupold VxII 3-9x40 scope, Timney trigger. Shoots about half MOA with handloads, much more reliable and predictable than my ex!! (LOL). Next Love of life (apart from son) is his rifle - CZ527 in 223 - great gun, but the box mag pisses me off - i like to be able to reload without pulling the mag - but, fine rifle, and the boy loves it. Won't let me sell it to buy a Sako! The Rem700 I owned was probably the most inconsistent rifle i have ever had the (dis)pleasure to shoot - and that includes military SMLE's, M16's, FN L1A1's, etc. The 788 was bloody accurate, but had a box mag - some people never learn! The others, well they were OK, but I never had that feeling of consistent confidence that I have with the '77 and '527. Buy What you feel comfortable with, you may have to play around with loads, etc, but the effort will be worth it. email me if you want more waffle.

Shop around for old Pre -64 M 70's. Usually $700 to $1,000 will buy you a very good gun to hunt with. It may be old, and worn, but they are one of the very best to be had.

I saw a nice 30-06 this week for $600.

Don't buy new. Shop around gun shows, pawn shops, the Internet sites. I'd look for FN Mausers (some can be bought very economically), older Sakos, and pre-64 M-70's. All can be had for prices near or below the cost of currently made guns and are more desirable IMO. Mark X Mausers aren't too bad either but not quite up to FN quality, altho they are generally more accurate (very accurate, actually).

[ 11-06-2003, 19:20: Message edited by: fla3006 ]

If you have money to waste on a fantasy, go looking for a pre-64 to buy. Dealers will show you pos's that should be used for tomato stakes and blandly ask $1000 for it.

Often when we get box in by the cost of something, we have not decided the difference between what we WANT and what we NEED. A lot of the WANT associated with rifles is aesthetic rather than practical. The details of fit and finish add to the pride of ownership and the pleasure in just carrying a fine piece of equipment, but these aesthetic virtues are not really related to performance in the field.

Alas, many of us may have to settle for performance in the field, because we can't afford the finest and most beautiful things in life. So, with that said what the poor man needs is a bottom of the line Savage, to echo what elkhntr said above. TYhe only practical complaint about the Savage line has been the heavy factory triggers, and now, at almost NO increase in price that have the best

I agree with fl3006. You won't go wrong with that recommendation.

Internet discussion boards are a funny place: All discussions must fit everyone's personal budget or else there's going to be some backlash.

For example, the guy with the Savage bolt-gun that he bought from K-Mart, especially since he gets decent groups with it, is absolutely certain that his rifle is the full-equal of any gun in the world, regardless of cost, etc. It just isn't as pretty, don't you know.... After all, it was HIS money, HE selected it, HE bought it, so how could it be any other way?

He's gonna for damn sure make sure that HIS rifle budget is going to be everyone else's budget - or else they'll be trivializing, etc.....

AD

I never buy new and if I was looking for an economical rifle I would get an old Sears or Montgomery Ward FN Mauser. They aren't rare, are cheap and work great. I only ever see them in 30-06 and the wood in the stocks isn't great, but this shouldn't be a concern if your budget is that tight.

Mike, those old FNs (Sears, etc.) are a great and practical choice in a high-quality, all-around rifle at a still-reasonable price.

AD

Sounds like you already know what you really want. Go for it.

Thanks again for all the advice I received in the additional posts.

Small fry, I am strongly considering one rifle in .300 WSM, one in 7mm WSM, or a simalar performing 7mm as I have litterally 100s of bullets in .284.

I've really been lucky lately, I've bought two new MKII Ruger 77s and both are tack drivers. I first bought a .308 UL 77 and it shoots far, far better than I can hold it, turning in 1" groups regularly. I was impressed, so I took the plunge and bought a 77 .243, after shooting a fouling shot, the next three shots at 100 yards, ripped one ragged hole. Now all this is after having several Rugers I was less than happy with accuracy wise. I think Ruger is really comming on strong. The only modification I've made to these rifles is to add a Timney trigger to both.
My neighbor was impressed, so he bought a stainless 77 .270 and bingo! it first shots were 1" right on the nose with more such groups to follow.
I think maybe Ruger has been improving their quality and making some fine rifles. With the addition of an aftermarket trigger, they are a super rifle.

Gentlemen,

I have had nothing but good luck with the last several Ruger's that I have bought...I strongly recommend them for a "budget" rifle...

I also believe the Weatherby Vanguard, as sold by Wal-Mart is an excellent rifle for the money.

Those are what I would buy if I was limited on funds...wait, I am limited on funds....so that is what I have bought.

I'm no Ruger fan, but I've owned quite a few of them over the years. A couple were quite accurate out of the box. One .338 Win. was a dog out of the box, but became an incredible tackdriver after a complete bedding and trigger job. The majority, however - by more than 70% - were inaccurate out of the box, and wouldn't turn into shooters no matter what you did to them.

The Ruger certainly does come with it's fair share of marketing B.S. attached to it. That slanted, shallow recoil lug being the most prominent B.S feature on the whole rifle. It's promoted as an aid to accuracy, but if anything, it FIGHTS against accuracy and, truth be known, it was designed that way as a production expedient and nothing else. It's no Model 70, and it's no Mauser 98, that's for darned sure. Evidently the custom riflemaking community agrees, because it's almost unheard of for a top custom rifle to be built on a Ruger 77 action.

If you have a Ruger that shoots, you have yourself a decent hunting rifle, but you might have to go through few before you get there. It's easier and more cost-effective to spend more money and come up with a better-built rifle to begin with.

By a considerable margin, the most consistently accurate production rifles with the most square and solid actions I've owned have been Remington 700 and the Model 70 Winchester, with the Model 70 being just about as accurate on average as the Remingtons, but functionally more reliable and practical. At least with these two makes, you can always get rid of everything but the actions and still come out ahead. If fact, with the Model 70 in particular, you can part-out the rifle, ship the action to a good riflesmith, and end up with an even BETTER Model 70. Most other contemporary commercial actions aren't worth rebarreling.

A generation ago, Browning used to market itself, in part, with this slogan: "The best costs the least in the long run!" They were right, and their products at that time were certainly worthy of that credo. The Browning of old is long gone, but that old-school Browning wisdom rings true to this day.

I'd rather have a couple of top-quality rifles than a safe full of mediocre ones. After playing the rifle-shuffle game for some thirty years, I can come to no other conclusion.

Rifles are like anything else: You get what you pay for. And you can pay now, or you can pay later - on an extended installment plan if you will.......

AD

ART338 -

I have the 300 WSM in a Savage Hunter Synthetic and paid $389 for it NEW at my local gunshop. It is so flexible and easy to load for that i am selling a brand new 270 WSM in Win Model 70 stainless that shoots 0.75 MOA....I have no use for it with my "cheap" Savage, which is just as accurate but launches Hornady 220 gr RNs at 2740 fps. At the lower end, Hornady 110 gr PSPs do 3720 fps with varmint class accuracy. If you want 1 gun for everything this is it...

The first problem with factory rifles as I see it is the fact that they are made to fit THEIR prerequsites. Forget about poor quality and the bean counters, what your going to get is what Remington decides you need, or what Winchester decides is a good bbl length, what Ruger thinks is a good chambering, the style of stock that CZ wants to offer. THEN there is the quality issues...

Once youve had a high quality M-98, FN Mauser, 03 Springfield or the like built to YOUR specifications, chambered in YOUR choice and taylored to YOUR desires, youll never go back to production rifles. And it doesnt have to be financially prohibitive either. Find a good deal on a quality used rifle and nibble away at perfection.

Last year I did a re-bbl on a M-98, added an aftermarket trigger and aquired a Springfield. This year one of them will get a nice walnut stock and a bbl for another. If I can afford it anyone can, but it does help to be handy with a few tools and are willing to do some tinkering yourself.

Art338-- just a few things from my world of thinking for you to chew on.

First off it sounds like you already have one good honest rifle. IMO you only NEED on more and you are set to hunt the world.

My opinion of factory rifles is this, take your pick (70/77/110/T3/700 or whatever) they are all darn good hunting rifles. For the most part they are all good and will do well for you once to get intimate with them.

To me the factory rifles are just like a pair of wool slacks--they need a bit of tailoring to really fit me. By this I mean-trigger tuning-bedding-perhaps a new stock and tube in time. This certainly does not need to be done in any given year. Take it easy and get it done as time and the budget fits.

Something to think about though-you say you'd like to buy 2/3 more and then later you say you'd like to maybe buy a 77, 1 or 2 700's, and perhaps an A-Bolt. Arts, I feel it takes about 1000 bones to set up each rifle so you are talking about investing somewhere between 3000-4000 dollars.
About the price of one of the Custome jobs out there.
I'd say you could easily do much better by buying one more in say a 270/06 or 280 being you have so many 284 bullets. Between it and the 338 you're pretty much covered to hunt the world. YOu could save a lot of money to use for going to the hill and hunting by going this route.

I feel a person doesn't need a lot of rifles, just a couple of good honest rifles that you are very good with.

I kind of look at the factory rifles that we are talking about here as the F150's of guns. And as you'll notice there are lot more F150' type of trucks out there than Hummers-if you get my drift.

So....you now know my thoughts-good luck and get to the hill as often as you can.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

Dog speaks the truth.

Whats a man to do? Go to a few gunshows and find a honest used pre 64 M-70 with a good bore...it will be the best rifle you ever owned...and if it has been well used you won't have to worry about scratching it up and thats makes it worth even more! About $500 if you look around, I just bought a real nice .270 std. weight for that last month....